Social licence questions again.

stangs said:
I don't think there's anything wrong with making more challenging tracks. That's the nature of sport.

Given how physically sensitive horses are, I just don't think they need this scale of tack to perform accurately and carefully. The issue is that this level of tack allows people to take shortcuts in training accuracy and rideability, and then, if everyone's doing it, you end up with a lot of pressure to do the same, on anyone who wants to be competitive. A 5* horse has the same number of nerves as a bog standard cob. It's not that they can't feel pressure; it's that people train them to push through pressure, and then keep escalating the aversives when the old set becomes too 'weak'.

If only the FEI would apply stricter tack restrictions, we could see who the real horsemen are.
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How much more challenging do you want them to be.People have always taken short cuts in their training but it is getting worse the higher the challenges are set.
 
eahotson said:
How much more challenging do you want them to be.People have always taken short cuts in their training but it is getting worse the higher the challenges are set.
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I think it depends what type of challenge, not necessarily how high. People dismiss the old cross country tracks and I think have on here, as "galloping" tracks - well they were, but they could have tricky terrain integrated into the course which had its own extra level of challenge.

https://www.facebook.com/BobWoodHorsesForLife/posts/pfbid0WibR1ewvym5nSH6eSfEHzEzyTxswwop1YsYWxvejYr9gzAfo2x45csNySBske1T5l

Getting rid of roads and tracks has clearly had its own effects, FEI dressage has dumbed down, the double reinback has gone, the allowing of being ON the vertical only came in maybe 25 years ago, and now we have the qualitative requirements reduced to guidelines. So in some ways the tests get harder but then we pander by making the rules easier. It's insane - money talks and this means the big money that's in the biggest sponsors, breeders and dealers (thinking of those huge names in dressage who have fingers in all sorts of pies in particular).
 
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sbloom said:
I think it depends what type of challenge, not necessarily how high. People dismiss the old cross country tracks and I think have on here, as "galloping" tracks - well they were, but they could have tricky terrain integrated into the course which had its own extra level of challenge. Getting rid of roads and tracks has clearly had its own effects, FEI dressage has dumbed down, the double reinback has gone, the allowing of being ON the vertical only came in maybe 25 years ago, and now we have the qualitative requirements reduced to guidelines. So in some ways the tests get harder but then we pander by making the rules easier. It's insane - money talks and this means the big money that's in the biggest sponsors, breeders and dealers (thinking of those huge names in dressage who have fingers in all sorts of pies in particular).
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There is a lot in what you say.Of course we want challenge,fair at whatever level of competition because there is no point otherwise but it should not be at the expense of the horse.The challenge should be the rider's not the horses.High level dressage has become IMHO disgusting.
 
eahotson said:
There is a lot in what you say.Of course we want challenge,fair at whatever level of competition because there is no point otherwise but it should not be at the expense of the horse.The challenge should be the rider's not the horses.High level dressage has become IMHO disgusting.
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Just added a link to my post :)
 
eahotson said:
How much more challenging do you want them to be.People have always taken short cuts in their training but it is getting worse the higher the challenges are set.
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As challenging as it takes to have good competition. I'm not a course designer, nor do I know any stats, so I can't be more specific than that.

I don't think it's the challenge that's the issue (at least in SJ, where horses' lives aren't at stake, and where the horses aren't being bred to be biomechanic disasters); it's the mindset of using gadgets that's the problem, and we'll only see changes in that with further FEI tack restrictions, as well as stronger penalties for those caught breaking such restrictions.
 
Horse welfare at any level is vital to the animals well-being. I, for one, don't like seeing pictures of winning show horses that would challenge the highest scoee on the obesity chart.

I think we need to be very careful as horse "sports" are seemingly more in the public eye in terms of abuse these days and in my opinion under threat.
 
stangs said:
As challenging as it takes to have good competition. I'm not a course designer, nor do I know any stats, so I can't be more specific than that.

I don't think it's the challenge that's the issue (at least in SJ, where horses' lives aren't at stake, and where the horses aren't being bred to be biomechanic disasters); it's the mindset of using gadgets that's the problem, and we'll only see changes in that with further FEI tack restrictions, as well as stronger penalties for those caught breaking such restrictions.
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People use those
sbloom said:
I think it depends what type of challenge, not necessarily how high. People dismiss the old cross country tracks and I think have on here, as "galloping" tracks - well they were, but they could have tricky terrain integrated into the course which had its own extra level of challenge.

https://www.facebook.com/BobWoodHorsesForLife/posts/pfbid0WibR1ewvym5nSH6eSfEHzEzyTxswwop1YsYWxvejYr9gzAfo2x45csNySBske1T5l

Getting rid of roads and tracks has clearly had its own effects, FEI dressage has dumbed down, the double reinback has gone, the allowing of being ON the vertical only came in maybe 25 years ago, and now we have the qualitative requirements reduced to guidelines. So in some ways the tests get harder but then we pander by making the rules easier. It's insane - money talks and this means the big money that's in the biggest sponsors, breeders and dealers (thinking of those huge names in dressage who have fingers in all sorts of pies in particular).
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Thank you for that.You have explained the whole thing very well.
 
eahotson said:
People use those

Thank you for that.You have explained the whole thing very well.
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I've always, probably subconsciously, wondered at the "scare the rider" approach to courses, it certainly seems to leave horses much more vulnerable to terrible falls, and frangible pins only seem to go so far. It's a bit of anthropomorphism, a bit of ego centric arrogant human stuff generally but it does ignore the horse's mental ability. If we're testing the ultimate combo why would be not want the horse to be part of the problem solving, instead he's turned into a machine to simply do the rider's bidding and we have lost those "fifth legs" that should still be part of breeding programmes but surely can't be, when this is the standard to which we're judging horses? Far from horse-centric.
 
Animals should really have no place in human ego battles, ie competitions.

They already do though, established when no one knew any better so that's the status quo, we enjoy it so much and there's so much money and industry dependent on it that we can carry on for a while.

I do it, occasionally, competing, and I love Badminton, NH racing, etc. Total hypocrite because my conscience says it's not right really.
 
The FEI posted this on social media a couple of months ago. I called them out on it but apparently according to some people, it’s just ‘a moment in time’.

EFB443A9-5857-40D3-819A-759A6A685DB8.jpeg

I always call out people who post videos of horses showing stereotypies used as a ‘fun’ marketing tool by companies or owners. My comments have a tendency to get deleted when I do that on Instagram but they have no such luck on Twitter!
 
Maddie Moo said:
The FEI posted this on social media a couple of months ago. I called them out on it but apparently according to some people, it’s just ‘a moment in time’.

I always call out people who post videos of horses showing stereotypies used as a ‘fun’ marketing tool by companies or owners. My comments have a tendency to get deleted when I do that on Instagram but they have no such luck on Twitter!
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Did you see the absolutely hopping lame vaulting horse at FEI champs? In many ways these horses have the hardest job and yet...keep calling them out!
 
sbloom said:
I think it depends what type of challenge, not necessarily how high. People dismiss the old cross country tracks and I think have on here, as "galloping" tracks - well they were, but they could have tricky terrain integrated into the course which had its own extra level of challenge.

https://www.facebook.com/BobWoodHorsesForLife/posts/pfbid0WibR1ewvym5nSH6eSfEHzEzyTxswwop1YsYWxvejYr9gzAfo2x45csNySBske1T5l

Getting rid of roads and tracks has clearly had its own effects, FEI dressage has dumbed down, the double reinback has gone, the allowing of being ON the vertical only came in maybe 25 years ago, and now we have the qualitative requirements reduced to guidelines. So in some ways the tests get harder but then we pander by making the rules easier. It's insane - money talks and this means the big money that's in the biggest sponsors, breeders and dealers (thinking of those huge names in dressage who have fingers in all sorts of pies in particular).
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This is not comparable in level…. That’s an intermediate/adv question with the trake and trakes have been around since the 1950s. The top question I would expect a 4yo to do. Completely disagree about Roads and tracks and actually loathe that as an answer. So many horses broke down or came home exhausted and on the whole would never go past 13/14 years of age. I love seeing 18yo horses looking amazing and enjoying their job still having been 5* warriors.
The truth is training is better and the old style courses had a lot of issues and wouldn’t be a competition. Horses are also better. Who knew 50 years of specialised breeding would produce better athletes? There is a reason you don’t see coloured horses at top level or Connie x like you used to - they don’t have enough athleticism.
 
Level wise it’s also important to note that a lot of those competing this year commented on the sticky ground which only made the course even harder. One girl I follow retired 80% of the way round XC thanks to the sticky ground.
 
sbloom said:
Did you see the absolutely hopping lame vaulting horse at FEI champs? In many ways these horses have the hardest job and yet...keep calling them out!
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I didn’t! Is there a video of it somewhere?

Interestingly, the FEI have never given out a warning or yellow card for vaulting. I guess because it isn’t as mainstream, things get hidden a lot easier from the public.

Also I’m not sure how so much tack is legal? Especially on the grey when it seems to be pressing right over the nasal peak. Initially I thought it was one of those anatomical bridles but the more I look at it, the more o think it’s two separate nosebands. These are the same rider at Kentucky (I gather from SM she has a bit of a poor reputation to put it mildly….)

FDF00F92-821F-4E36-9303-84F6D6C31F71.jpeg
265CB2C5-2654-4197-B13C-A55562EE163D.jpeg
 
This is the final line in the HH article referred to in the opening post of this thread

I don’t care how other people choose to live their lives, so would ask others to show similar respect to ours.

The problem for me is that I also don't care how others choose to live their lives. It really doesn't bother me until we throw a horse into the mix and at that stage then it does start to concern others.
 
stormox said:
Are you saying Nick Skelton 'mismanaged' his horses? I'd like to see anyone on here ride Big Star round an Olympic course.
He has a fair bit of tack I agree, but would you rather he'd missed out on gold? I bet nearly everyone in UK was cheering him on, not assessing his tack.
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It's a yes from me. I watched a lot of SJ in the 70's, a lot of local shows had the big name riders, now I never watch, I have seen and heard too much. The end never justifies the means.
 
Maddie Moo said:
I didn’t! Is there a video of it somewhere?

Interestingly, the FEI have never given out a warning or yellow card for vaulting. I guess because it isn’t as mainstream, things get hidden a lot easier from the public.

Also I’m not sure how so much tack is legal? Especially on the grey when it seems to be pressing right over the nasal peak. Initially I thought it was one of those anatomical bridles but the more I look at it, the more o think it’s two separate nosebands. These are the same rider at Kentucky (I gather from SM she has a bit of a poor reputation to put it mildly….)

View attachment 113359
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How much tack?! The grey looks like he has 3 nosebands on
 
sbloom said:
fb.watch

Some food for thought on a topic that is sure to upset some horse people. Does the industry love the horse or the sport more? What do our actions say... | By Milestone Equestrian | Facebook

Some food for thought on a topic that is sure to upset some horse people. Does the industry love the horse or the sport more? What do our actions say...
fb.watch fb.watch
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Ummm I have mixed feelings about this for every unrideable horse is a myriad of reasons that caused it, bad management, poor breeding, poor upbringing, poor training and it goes on and on. The reality is very few unrideable horses actually are unrideable due to old age. Most horses don’t even compete as competition riders area on this forum demonstrates where it has become less competition orientated over the years and a much higher focus on alternative training. I just think that it’s more nuanced and less cut and dry that that one opinion is being a bit binary.
 
When I was in the local Pony Club (1950's) our District Commissioner was Colonel Warren Wofford, the husband of Dawn Palethorpe, a well-known showjumper.
He was stern, patient up to a point and instructed us to think about a productive and kind alliance with our mounts.
His favourite trick was to replace our reins with paper ones, like Christmas decorative chains. He had dozens of them! We had to demonstrate that we could control our ponies at all gaits using these and a single-jointed snaffle.
When that was consistently achieved, he progressed to teach us to safely ride bareback, including jumping and gymkhana games.
It taught us to use balance, tact and foresight. Also humility.
Seventy years on, I still use these skills with the sharp, "up for a laugh" Old Arabian. He's a retired Grade B showjumper, and won at some major shows. If he's hung onto he fights you every step, and his ears end up in your mouth. It's a lot easier and more profitable to negotiate the round with him. I've never used a martingale on him, or any sort of restrictive noseband. Jumping at home, I've used a french link eggbut snaffle, in competions, a double reined Pelham. We've usually placed in the top three, depending on the efficiency of the brakes and steering. As he's got older, he's become more determined that he knows best.
I think we'll have to stick to trotting poles in future.
 
stormox said:
But that's what a pro is? Surely? Someone at the top of their game, has probably done courses, taken lessons, done an apprenticeship and PROVED they know their stuff. And yes, I would listen to a pro.
I would take lessons from a pro rather than someone with no credentials whatsoever.
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Just a thought on this but surely, in that case, a pro rider could do all of these things with minimal tack...not more??
 
LEC said:
Ummm I have mixed feelings about this for every unrideable horse is a myriad of reasons that caused it, bad management, poor breeding, poor upbringing, poor training and it goes on and on. The reality is very few unrideable horses actually are unrideable due to old age. Most horses don’t even compete as competition riders area on this forum demonstrates where it has become less competition orientated over the years and a much higher focus on alternative training. I just think that it’s more nuanced and less cut and dry that that one opinion is being a bit binary.
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What she's saying isn't competition specific. People almost always buy horses because they want to ride, whether that be going out for hacks or doing PSG. (Alternative folk like riding too!) It's not necessarily wrong, but you also can't say that your ultimate priority is the care of a specific animal, if you then choose to move them on for the sake of your goals. A change of home - a new routine, new carers, new conspecifics, will almost always be stressful for a horse, even if they're going to be in a better home. It's not a decision that comes with no consequences for the horse.

In the end, ownership is a huge expense to commit to if you can't achieve what you're trying to achieve (whether that be moving up the levels or just riding). For most people, that goal is not just owning a horse, regardless of what they can do with it. It shouldn't be a surprise, because most of us have our first experiences with horses, the ones that make fall in love, in the saddle.

It's not exactly news that people don't tend to buy unridden horses, and criticism of people who think it's a good idea to sell on an older and unridden horse isn't uncommon, especially on this forum.

My boy can't stand up to ridden work anymore due to historically being poorly managed, and ridden into the ground by previous owners. Ten separate people have told me what a 'sacrifice' I've made to have him, which tells you their thoughts on keeping an unridden. And I'm not much better either - the only reason I bought him, knowing he couldn't be ridden anymore, was because I'd known him in the past. I wouldn't have bought another horse in his situation that I didn't have some emotional ties to.
 
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