Spaniel Puppy Advice/Vent

Love said:
I actually never really thought about it until you mentioned as didn't see it as a problem but its only fairly recently that Purdey will go for a wee/poo in the garden without one of us in sight and she is 16 months now...
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I still go out with mine now (10, 7, 5 and 3 years old). Mainly because I don’t trust them to pay attention and do a proper job without me there.
 
Love said:
Don't want to sound like a broken record but another here who would strongly advise making a crate work in any way you can. It was invaluable when Purdey was a puppy and she absolutely loves it in there. Yes, we had to build her time up in there gradually when she was tiny but she very quickly learnt it was her safe space/bedroom and that there was always something yummy or exciting waiting for her inside.

You may have already tried these so sorry if I've missed it. A couple of things that we did when she was young and clingy that sprung to mind as possibly being helpful were the "flitting" game and also place boards? With place boards (we actually used a tea towel) it would get him out from under your feet when trying to get through stairgates/manoeuvre doors etc. Just "release" him when you're ready for him to come with you (we do this at every gate we get to on a walk too - Purdey now waits until we are all through the gate before being allowed to follow us - great for checking if she needs to go back on lead for any reason etc rather than her just blasting through). Then incorporate the flitting in and out and gradually build up.

I actually never really thought about it until you mentioned as didn't see it as a problem but its only fairly recently that Purdey will go for a wee/poo in the garden without one of us in sight and she is 16 months now...
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Thank you.
What would happen if one of the cats go in the crate? Do they get possessive over it?
 
You are in a horrible situation GrassChop and really to me it just sounds like a rookie dog owner not realising the commitment and time devoted to a puppy is and especially one of the cross breeds you have.

Many years ago I successfully raised two JRT pups whilst owning 3 adult collies in a very tiny little 2 up 2 down terrace with a postage stamp garden, but admittedly I literally had next to my cottage miles and miles of beaches, forestry and countryside to roam in with them. I had two cages that frankly they did get in the way a bit, but only needed to use for a year or so until a very good obedient and confident young adult dog was achieved. However I was very lucky to have a flexi job that I could start as early as I liked (usually 6.30) and back in the house by 1.30/2.30 latest, my OH did not leave for his own business until 9.30 so all the dogs were on their own for a relatively short time and the JRT pups took their cue from the adult collies about behaviour and sleeping etc. I guess I was fortunate and collies especially are much easier to train than working breed in my experience.

I think You probably have already made your mind up, and I do not blame you, you and your partner are stressed and suffering and that stress will be making the young pup very anxious too, so I am not surprised your situation is getting worse.

I consider myself a very experienced dog owner, but just a couple of years back I rehomed a failed working gun dog. She was a flipping nightmare and escaped so many times that we ended up with their paddock looking like fort knox. 3 years on and all that overhanging ugly fencing is removed, she spends hours on a nice day just laying right in the middle of the paddock, happily gazing out across the valley to watch the cows, sheep and horses in their fields. Very calm and contented and walks nicely on a long line when going out for proper walks. I nearly gave up and it was sooo stressful. But it did work out, so if you feel inclined to give it a little longer (using a cage and try stuffing the kong with peanut butter it works a treat) then do so. If not then do not feel bad you have already admitted your mistake and just get the best possible outcome in a new home for the pup. Good luck.
 
GrassChop said:
Can I ask... Those of you giving good advice, how often are you home and have spare time? I think this makes a huge difference to the situation.
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My husband and I both work FT although he us able to work from home a lot of the time. If he has to go out to meet clients or work away for a few days then I am usually able to go home at lunch time as only work 5 mins away from home. Then we have a lovely lady who comes on the days we can't make it work between us so she is never actually left longer than 3.5/4 hours max. She can also go to work sometimes with my husband if he has a meeting somewhere dog friendly or in one of the dog friendly offices.

Edited to add: on the days husband is WFH she is fast asleep by him for the entire time anyway...

Building on her "off switch" was the best thing we ever did (especially in a working breed not hugely famous for having one 🤣). I say all this, I'd love to think it was something we have done but it could just be how she is...
 
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GrassChop said:
Can I ask... Those of you giving good advice, how often are you home and have spare time? I think this makes a huge difference to the situation.
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I wfh part time. When I was office based two days a week a dog walker would come in at lunchtime. My lurcher is a house dog, the other four are kennelled. My lurcher can take or leave people, the gun dogs are needy (three labs, two of which we bred, and a cocker) and want to bounce around you all the time. Our spaniel, and all the other spaniels we have had, have been versions of needy, clingy and possessive, prone to jealousy of other dogs and wanting all the attention. They are firmly OH’s dogs, they work through the shooting season then do very little in their off season. I like my lurcher as he is very cat like, easy in the home, obviously needs his off lead running everyday and we do agility training and competing too but generally you wouldn’t even know he was here. He was crated from day 1 and still (aged three) sleeps in there at night - we have a very small house and I don’t need him on our bed all night, which would be his choice!

I go out with him at night for his final wee/poo, otherwise he goes off voling or comes back too quickly. The kennel dogs get briefly walked sometime after 11pm, a couple of hundred yards, whilst being reminded to do a wee. We are lucky, we have land at home.
 
Thanks. It seems then that those of you that could make it work definitely had more time than us/were around more and I'm not sure the advice would be the same given our home and time. :( I obviously made an error and it's going to break my heart. I thought the cats would be okay. None of this is fair for anyone.
 
GrassChop said:
Can I ask... Those of you giving good advice, how often are you home and have spare time? I think this makes a huge difference to the situation.
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I don't know if mine constitutes good advice, but I've always had dogs and worked full time and so did my mother when I was growing up, I pick a horse for the course, IE, the type of dog that I know that will fit into my, quite frankly, chaotic lifestyle, and I invest a lot of time in training. Ideally I go for an older dog rather than a young pup. Hilariously my youngest is the first I have had from a baby puppy in a very long time and I messed up good on a few things. Dog training and competing is my hobby though, so it doesn't feel like a massive ordeal. Much. It's a way of life for me rather than a stress and your dog WILL be picking up on your stress.

I moved my job and my house to be able to spend more time with my dogs/on training, I work from home now but the routine is still walkies morning, after work, late night on weekdays. Back when I was coming home at lunchtime they seemed kinda annoyed that I was disturbing them.
 
GrassChop said:
The previous owner won't have him back. We aren't at home all the time to be training 24/7. We both work full time and whilst my partner is flexible due to having his own company, he can't be there solidly all day. The plan was for him to go to work with my partner but he's proving too difficult at the moment. He's taken a lot of time off work already. Having him on a house line isn't going to stop the obsession and lack of space.
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OK I mean this in the nicest possible way, but this is a case of square pegs and round holes. You wouldn't pick a Shetland to go GP with or a Shire to go showjumping, a dog such as the one you have described was probably never going to be OK with this sort of set up without a LOT of work. I'm not saying you haven't ploughed a lot into this dog, but I'm afraid it just hasn't been in the right way.
 
These days I WFH so am about for the dogs, however to compare to your situation,

My first dog was a working lab. I lived in a town centre in a tiny maisonette with a small yard. I worked full time in an office and it involved some travel. I never intended to get a dog or even contemplated getting one, my lifestyle just wasn’t suited to it.

At the time I had a horse at a livery yard and owner bred a massive litter of labs and mine was unsold. I had my arm very strongly twisted by the YO and the only way it was viable was by her doing bargin daycare around me coming and going to do the horse. When I moved out of the area I still used daycare if I was going to be away from the house for >4/5 hours, even though the dog was a saint.

I just don’t think it’s fair on any dog to spend the bulk of their daytime at home, alone. Especially not a working breed. Mine (including a needy neurotic spaniel) would all, in an emergency, cope at home alone for the day but it’s not something that should be part of an overall plan.
 
Clodagh said:
I still go out with mine now (10, 7, 5 and 3 years old). Mainly because I don’t trust them to pay attention and do a proper job without me there.
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Me too, 4 and 13 (and the one in the middle before he passed). Because low wall, lovely neighbourhood cats and I don't ever leave poop lying. Basically if I am not with them/watching them, they are in a secure area where they can't do any shenanigans :p
 
I think you know what you need to do.

You’ve obviously thought it through thoroughly and at least you’re admitting defeat (as it were) and are willing to do the best for your dog

spanielaid.co.uk

Spaniel Aid. CIO | Registered Charity No: 1203314

We're a rescue and rehoming charity for spaniels and spaniel cross-breeds, which aims to help them find the best home to spend the rest of their lives.
spanielaid.co.uk spanielaid.co.uk

Are a charity that deal with spaniels and spaniel x who have some very experienced fosters who train the pup before letting them go for adoption.

Don’t feel terrible. You’re giving him the best chance of the best life.
 
MurphysMinder said:
Just looked at your previous post and you’ve only had him a couple of weeks , so he’s hardly had time to settle , particularly as you are his 3rd home. If you want to persevere you really need to find space for a crate . I’m not sure how far you are walking him but he doesn’t need much at 4 months , he may be totally over stimulated . If you really feel you aren’t able to follow the advice given I’d contact a spaniel rescue , although they’re probably over run with them 🙁
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This, he is only a pup, I think you are expecting quite alot from him. Can you find out if there are any puppy socialisation classes nearby, you might find that helpful. They are usually able to give advice on training pups too. Having a pup is HARD work, I got one in November and he is so boisterous and sometimes I wondered if I had done the right thing, but he is great 95% of the time and I love him dearly, , when you haven't had one for a few years you forget how much work and effort is required. I know in another couple of months he will be 100% and it will all have been worth is.
 
SAujla said:
If you got a crate you could get a crate cover as well, to make it feel more secure and den like. When Clover had one we covered it all but left one panel side uncovered. You could leave the side open where he can't see you
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And the cats could go over the top of the crate to get to where they need to go.

We rehomed a 5 month old Lab pup just over 2 yrs ago. We had her here at home for a month or so and then took her on holiday with our older Labs to stay with relatives in Scotland.
She was a bit nervous of the Scottish dogs at first but settled easily, throughly enjoyed visits to the beach etc.
We took her back to stay with the same relatives last year and it was obvious that she had completely forgotten the dogs, the house the people. She must have been completely overwhelmed by all the changes in her short life.
The Scottish dogs came to visit us more recently and she was thrilled to see them, she certainly remembered them that time.

We have rehomed several adult dogs in the past but never such a young one, other than directly from the breeder and despite almost 70 years experience of keeping multiple dogs, I was surprised that she couldn't remember her first holiday.

Unfortunately you have to accommodate the dog, you can't expect him to adapt to you, except gradually over time.
 
GrassChop said:
Can I ask... Those of you giving good advice, how often are you home and have spare time? I think this makes a huge difference to the situation.
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Currently retired so at home most of the day but as said above I have had dogs all my life including when working. So have had young pups several times and had to work round them/make arrangements for them.
 
Could you consider baby Gates etc while he's still learning? a little stretch of landing/hallway could be a good place to allow him to still see you but still learn to settle?

The other thing I'm wondering if there's anything you can harness into a job for your pup? I have a spaniel cross (other half being pointer so pretty bonkers), and her job is gym. It taps into the gundog abilities to focus on her owner and then do short bursts of mental stimulation. My husband does whatever it is he does out in the garage and between sets she is sent to retrieve various things and follow specific commands. really works for her. This supplements more low key sniffy walks on and off lead. Once a week I do take her to an enclosed park and let her act the hallion.

He's still a baby so I'd also look into some sort of home from home based daycare or someone to pop in and be with him. A very solid routine he feels secure with should help.

I feel for you OP, my dog was very tough work in the beginning- she wasn't a puppy but it was a good 3 months before things got tolerable and 6 months before I felt like we all settled into our lives together. After a year I was able to fully relax about her.

Whatever you decide to do I hope you can be happy with your decision.
 
Solid advice and discussion points already. The only thing I’d add is that I think it’s important to try and step back from the situation and look at things forensically to see if this is a) puppy chaos and stress or b) not going to work in the long term.

We have a 7 month old. He isn’t fully house trained as is an airhead and easily distracted (which drives me bonkers) and has just gone through an asbo phase. He is a fizzy bottle of pop and excitement. Lots of serious impulse control/self control has been in our training lately. He’s generally very chill and laid back, I often forget he is even here, but over exciting things gets very excited. He goes from Neil of the young ones to Louis Spence. This combined with other life things had me at my wits end and I think I said daily to OH ‘he’s going back!’ He hasn’t, and I wouldn’t, because I know it’s just a phase - but it has been really stressful. We are through it now, until the next one in a few months. I had to remind myself it’s a phase, it comes with the territory, the pissing will eventually stop, most things can be resolved with training and the biggest one - that I don’t particularly enjoy the puppy phase - I think people who do are bonkers.

I know he is just a fizzy puppy, who is naturally quite shy and doesn’t naturally read situations/how to respond to situations well, and was over socialised as was a super cute pup who got too much engagement when out and about.

It would be different if I thought/feared it wasn’t going to work in the long run though. Or if I didn’t think we all fitted. As I say, I don’t notice he’s here most the time - most of our discussions are ‘where’s the monkey’, even the mini Mugabe dog loves him. When I was in my late teens and at home we had an English Springer in the pack. My mum purchased him as a romanticised hark back to a childhood dog she had. He taught me a very important philosophy carried into adulthood - you can love a dog as much as is humanly possible, but rather like a relationship, you both have to be a good fit for one and other or it will never truly work.

As I’ve written here before - he wasn’t right for us, and we weren’t right for him. It wasn’t just his energy levels and destructiveness due to not being stimulated enough, but his hunting drive was stronger than any of our terriers. For four years we all lived in chaotic unhappiness, even after our best efforts to make it work. In the end he went to live with horse friends with lots of outdoor space and people with him pretty much all the time. He was a different dog. He made very old bones, we still saw him and he was much happier - as were we. It was clear from early on that it wasn’t going to work - and everyone would have been happier if we’d changed the situation sooner.
 
I grew up with gun dogs. Irish setters and then spaniels. Theres a bloody good reason that as an adult I got whippets! Nothing on earth would persuade me to have a spaniel as we wouldn't be a good fit at all. But with the whippets we fit each other almost perfectly, and the bits that arent perfect don't matter a jot because its just part of who they are and it doesn't cause issues as I have adjusted my life to suit them.
 
GrassChop said:
Thanks. It seems then that those of you that could make it work definitely had more time than us/were around more and I'm not sure the advice would be the same given our home and time. :( I obviously made an error and it's going to break my heart. I thought the cats would be okay. None of this is fair for anyone.
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Honestly he has only been with you a couple of weeks. He is bound to be clingy, everything he relied on has changed. I think that you need to give it a bit longer to be fair to all of you, including the cats. Get a crate with a wooden lid pop him in there whenever you can't supervise him, or when the cats need to go past. Let OH take him to work and put him in a crate there, teach him to settle in the crate. Of course OH will need to let him out of the crate to play/toilet at frequent intervals at first. He needs to learn that the crate is a safe space with yummy treats.
 
Good advice on crates, training, managing his environment and your expectations already given.
My gut feeling from reading your replies though is that you feel overwhelmed and that you can’t cope. Nothing to be ashamed of. Are you a first time dog owner? When you have had dogs for years it’s easy to forget how all consuming and life changing they can be. There is such a thing as puppy blues and even highly experienced dog owners can get them. You both work full time, are inexperienced and have chosen a cross of two high energy working spaniels. It was never going to be easy! Now is the time to really decide, and be honest with yourself, whether you are prepared to make it work no matter what (including changing lifestyle) or whether you want to call it a day now. If it’s the latter, please contact one of the very good breed specific spaniel rescues and ask for assistance in rehoming.
 
Lots of people have given you general advice re managing the dog & tweaking things in the environment so not going to retread that but some thoughts re the cats and enabling them to feel they can come into the house if they want without having to get any closer to dog than they want to.

If they haven’t lived with dogs before this will be a massive deal to them as they’ll naturally be wary of him, especially if he’s actively trying to approach & is interested in them (& even more so if he’d like to chase them or jump on them)

They really really really need a way in and out of the house that does not involve having to be in the same room as him to enter / exit / access food or beds. This may have to involve opening a window that you’d normally like closed, having a cat flap installed in a random place, giving them access to rooms you normally wouldn’t or if you normally control their access via opening a door then he must always be safely shut away (either in another room or in a crate if you get one) when they come in or out.

Initially they must never be forced to be in the same room as him if they want to access important things like food or sleeping places (ie make sure they have other choices if they want them) & if he’s not got 100% reliable recall/ ability to completely ignore the cats like they aren’t there then he’s going to need to be on lead around them until either this is the case or the cats are less scared of him. This could take months.

They should have high up places they can go in every single room with shared access, either tops of wardrobes etc, cat trees / podiums or shelves fixed to the wall. This will help them feel safer knowing they can get away (providing this for my own cat made a massive difference in his ability to stay in the same room as on lead hooligan spaniel)

I think adding cardboard/ plywood or similar to your existing gates would be a good shout for now. If you can get to the stage where cats can tolerate sharing space without being scared but still need to protect bowls then putting a cat flap on a small cupboard (ie creating a small, secure box) is a solution that works for some people. (Or if raising the gates in a DIY way works you could eventually invest in taller ones)

Unfortunately asking animals that don’t naturally get along to share space can involve quite a lot of hard work, compromise & ingenuity. These things very rarely slot into place straight off the bat. Horrid took about a month to be sort of ok sharing space with an on lead puppy and a further few months to be happy handling him off lead. They still have their moments (mainly due to the hooligan’s chase drive!) but mostly co-exist peacefully. The cat is, of course, in charge!
 
This is really sad, for OP and for the pup :( when I got my dog at 8 weeks old, me and my partner at the time booked time off work using annual leave (I called it puppy maternity leave 😂) - we both booked alternate full days off for the first week I think, then alternate half days for the next 2 weeks - this was before wfh was a thing. We used that time to train him to be ok with being left (in the next room, then just outside the front door, then popping to shop etc) for incrementally longer periods of time as that was the thing we really needed to nail straight away. And it gave us time to get toileting outside sorted.
He couldn’t go for walks yet except for being carried for socialisation to noises, traffic, people etc. as hadn’t completed his course of vaccs yet. If I get another pup I will do similar, with a bit more flexibility as I now wfh the majority of the time. When fully back at work I was coming home at lunchtime daily to walk/toilet/train him.
I still to this day scatter treats or something nice for him when I leave the house and he is perfectly happy and settled. He goes to my mum on my office days now as I live too far from work to pop home.

It took an awful lot of planning and yes it was tough, it’s full on! It’s like having no a baby (except MUCH more fun, in my experience 🤣). I’d do it all again in a heartbeat though. The adolescent months were much more trying - but they do come out the other side!

The cats add another element of stress, if you can’t change your set up to make it easier on them it’s not fair on them either. I do think in this instance you’d be better off rehoming while he’s still young. Just really sad all round. Wish I was in the market but I will be looking for a bitch and not a working gun dog type when I do take the plunge again, I know I can’t provide the stimulation they need. I nearly caved in to cute puppy pics from a Brittany breeder I know but I’m so glad I didn’t because I would have been living a similar nightmare to you I think! Despite adoring the breed I know it wouldn’t be a good idea right now.
 
You've had some really great advice but I just wanted to add in my thoughts having recently got a puppy with an existing cat. Clover is now 8/9 months old and reading your opening post brought all the memories from her being 4 months old back, she was a bit of a nightmare! She's mine/OH's first puppy and it was so full on, she also decides when she wants to listen to you and when not and she's not particularly food orientated either. I have some threads about her, particularly one about toilet training where I was just so exasperated with her not 'getting' it but now I can honestly say it's been weeks since she's last had an accident indoors, and even then it was because of me as I hadn't heard her to open the door. She was also one for running back inside and weeing as outside was just far too fun!

I was so worried about my cat when we got her as he's been an 'only child' for 9 years so we made sure that the house was dedicated to him rather than Clover. She is not allowed upstairs as that is where his litter tray/bed/food is so he has the whole floor to himself plus we have created an upper level around the downstairs of steps and walkways and a floor to ceiling scratching post which enable him to spend time in the room with me (he's 100% my cat and not OH's - been around much longer than OH! so he spends a lot of time in my company) and Clover can't reach him. We even have a scratching post blocking the stair gate so he can make an easy access, we just put up with moving it out the way to go upstairs as it's for his benefit. OH also takes Clover to work with him on some days when I WFH so Neville can freely wander the whole house with me and have some outside time if he wants, without being harassed. Clover is not chasing him to be aggressive, she really wants to be friends with him and she has got so much better as she's older and he is becoming more confident and will often walk around downstairs now if Clover is having a snooze on the sofa. It has taken work and time though! She's not got a reliable re-call (she's a setter....) however I can 100% rely on her to 'come away' from eyeballing Neville through the stairgate or bugging him as I put so so much time and effort into that particular training as I really want Neville to be comfortable. I think in a year or so they might even be able to share the sofa!

So all that rambling aside, I feel your pain! Puppies are such hard work, especially with relevant cats and no one will judge you if you were to rehome is he's not a good fit. Maybe I have given you some ideas for your cats though if you did decide to keep him so I hope this helps :)
 
Clodagh said:
Spaniels are a serious hard work breed. There’s no down time or relaxation when with them, unless they are asleep. Decide now if you want a lifetime of training, training, training and work.
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Downtime is a skill that can be taught, but you have to be strict on keeping to it. Wth ours, after tea is quiet time, they can have things to chew but all the high activity toys go away for the night. As others have said brain exercise is more important than physical too, they're wonderful little dogs to teach, and if he's foody then you're halfway there. Hope you find a solution that works for all of you.
 
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