Stuck, mis sold horse

[Jellymoon]

Ok so we all know there are dodgy dealers and mis-sold horses out there, but at what point does the new owner of a horse accept that actually this horse is now theirs, and their responsibility to care for and provide veterinary and other support professionals (proper ones, not whisperers), rather than passing the buck to someone else?

I'm quite shocked tbh. Once an animal is mine, it's mine to take responsibility for at that time. That's horse ownership, that's what you take on. A mis-sold car, you can park it in the driveway while you argue the toss. A horse, you shouldn't.

This.
I do understand how upsetting and frustrating this all is, and it does sound like you’ve been trying to get to the bottom of his issues, but personally I wouldn’t be trying to get the dealer to take him back. I think fair enough if it’s a week after you bought it, and it’s totally unsuitable/dangerous and you’ve been lied to, but when you’ve had it a few months?? And bought without vetting it, so obv prepared to take quite a risk with your money...
I find it very odd that you pay to insure the horse but don’t then use the insurance to find out from a proper vet what’s actually wrong with the poor thing.
I think you have to put this down to experience - next time be very careful who you buy from, do your homework first and take a very knowledgable friend, and get it well-vetted.
In the meantime, you can try to salvage something from this by getting the vet out, use your insurance, do what you can to make the horse rideable. It may be that he is worth something and you won’t have lost all your money.

 

[DabDab]

Highly doubt OP will be back so just for discussions sake how does someone differentiate between a mis-sold horse and buying the wrong horse?

If I bought an advanced eventer it's very likely that I wouldn't be able to ride one side of it and it wouldn't be long until I was in trouble with fit eventer.

I could have told the seller my perception of myself and my abilities. I have ridden performance bred horses, I have jumped over xc fences and I have owned horses for decades. I could have tried the horse and it been foot perfect given it was regularly ridden by a good rider and it was tried in it's own surroundings.

But if I bought said horse sold to me as able to do the job I asked it to do then it goes wrong legally how does a judge *know* the difference between mis-sold or mis-bought?

I think it's a really interesting question. In general I think most people would agree that consumer protection laws don't really work for the purchase of live animals, and that it is probably time that a different set of laws were put in place for sentient beings. Buying a horse shouldn't be the same as buying a kettle.

However, I do think it is time that the professional standard of dealer in the industry in general needs to increase. We all know the odd fantastic producer/dealer who can not just assess a horse, but also a potential buyer, can recognise a good fit and insists on certain trial requirements and vetting etc. But that shouldn't be the odd cream of the crop exception in my view, it should be the norm. And I really hope that now there are higher prices being paid for all-rounder type horses that professional standards do start to creep in that direction.

Don't know what a judge in a small claims court would make of someone who so obviously bought a horse in poor condition (that by their own admission they recognised at viewing)....

 

[Upthecreek]

I am not/have not criticised you for expressing an opinion. That’s what a forum is all about, it’s full of opinions.

I’m criticising you for writing a post that, if the op is inexperienced (which it seems so), distressed and worried would leave her reeling and feeling probably pretty awful.

All you have done is basically tell her she is an idiot. Your post is unnecessarily cruel without being remotely constructive.

I hope the op doesn’t come back to this thread, and gets some proper advice.

Yes you’ve described what a forum is perfectly. It also means you don’t get to tell people what they can and cannot post. It is not down to you to make assumptions on what I do or don’t mean - I have not at any time said the OP is an idiot or that I don’t have sympathy with her situation.

The real loser in all of this is the horse and if anyone else inexperienced reads the posts on this thread before buying a horse in the future perhaps they won’t repeat the same mistakes.

 

[AdorableAlice]

What a sad situation for both the new owner and the horse, who if he is a county level horse, will have known kindness, good health and education in the past.

It will be very easy to search the back ground of the horse via Sports Horse Breeding of Great Britain (sporthorsegb.co.uk) . His results, riders and owners will all be recorded. There will certainly be a reason for a good horse to find himself in a low level dealer yard, especially given the demand and the prices being achieved over the last 12 months for poor quality horses let alone decent ones.

 

[FireCracker238]

Are we sure the horse is insured for vet fees? The OP stated they are insured but didn't say if it was vet fees or LOU. They've been very vague throughout all of this but they did say in one post that it was stories of pursuing money back from dealers instead of medical advice they were after

 

[ycbm]

Are we sure the horse is insured for vet fees? The OP stated they are insured but didn't say if it was vet fees or LOU. They've been very vague throughout all of this but they did say in one post that it was stories of pursuing money back from dealers instead of medical advice they were after

You can't get LOU cover without vet fees on an ordinary policy, can you?
.

 

[Rowreach]

Are we sure the horse is insured for vet fees? The OP stated they are insured but didn't say if it was vet fees or LOU. They've been very vague throughout all of this but they did say in one post that it was stories of pursuing money back from dealers instead of medical advice they were after

Post #43 says he’s insured for vets fees.

 

[FireCracker238]

Post #43 says he’s insured for vets fees.

Thank you, couldn't recall seeing it

 

[chaps89]

You can't get LOU cover without vet fees on an ordinary policy, can you?
.

Pretty sure you can - to claim LOU you will need vet reports etc to back up the claim so it would be odd to insure LOU and not vet fees, but not impossible. That's cover for the value of the horse so a separate aspect of cover to get fees.
Exception might be if the horse was mega money, in which case funds for the £5k vet fee cover that is afforded on most policies might be more easily covered by the owner than it would be for most owners.

 

[FireCracker238]

I've LOU without vet fees

 

[TPO]

And the best way to stop bin end dealers is to hold them to account. If kind-hearted purchasers decide that they can't face sending their new horse back to face an uncertain future, the dealer gets away with it yet again.

The best way to stop bin end dealers (& puppy farmers) is not to buy from them in the first place.

Why don't some people do the tiniest bit of researching and self educating before buying or "rescuing" horses/any animals?

A whole world of information is literally at the fingertips of everyone with internet access.

At the end of the day it's the animal that always suffers

 

[ycbm]

Exception might be if the horse was mega money, in which case funds for the £5k vet fee cover that is afforded on most policies might be more easily covered by the owner than it would be for most owners.

This is the only time I would understand it, not for a normal horse like this one. Say it cost £5k to buy, why would you insure for that £5k loss and not the £5k you might lose on vet fees?

In the context of this discussion, it makes no sense if the question "are you insured", answered "yes", is not talking about vet fees.
.

 

[LEC]

I don’t even know why people want to sell horses now - nobody seems to own up to making a dumb decision, not realising they are the problem in their management/riding or not taking professional advice in the first place (trainer/vet etc)

Instead it’s always someone else’s fault.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I just feel sorry for horse. Owner could be getting poor animal vet checked but is not willing to do this. I find this so very very sad.
I think most of us have been in a position where the new horse ownership kicks in and you have that cold sweat feeling of OMG what have I done, and brought now. But you knuckle down and start to work through the issues 1 by 1.
I could not return a living animal like a tight fitting pair if shoes I just cannot comprehend doing it.
Yes some dealers are bad, but equally some buyers are just as full of bull and don't give a toss about anything but money.
Get bloods done at the vetting and run a set. But at least get a bloody vetting unless you will deal with the consequences of not doing so and that is not the persecution of the seller.
Who knows if this horse has been injured in the care of new owner cause there us not even a starting point.
But my concern is for the poor horse in all of this, especially as they sense if people like them or not. To to have an animal potentially in pain and not get a vet to it is just cruel and unnecessary as its insured. Sorry I can't get my head round this.

 

[Rowreach]

I don’t even know why people want to sell horses now - nobody seems to own up to making a dumb decision, not realising they are the problem in their management/riding or not taking professional advice in the first place (trainer/vet etc)

Instead it’s always someone else’s fault.

If as a dealer you have to have money put by to refund any buyer who can make up any story, without any evidence to back it up, for six months after the sale, we'll end up with no dealers at all.

 

[Gingerwitch]

If as a dealer you have to have money put by to refund any buyer who can make up any story, without any evidence to back it up, for six months after the sale, we'll end up with no dealers at all.

Is that not just life now though ?.
Its everyone else fault you let me do x y z it can never be my fault.
I hate what the world is turning into

 

[Rowreach]

Is that not just life now though ?.
Its everyone else fault you let me do x y z it can never be my fault.
I hate what the world is turning into

I think it's only right that people are held to account where they are genuinely at fault, but there has to be some requirement for proving it I'd have thought.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

The best way to stop bin end dealers (& puppy farmers) is not to buy from them in the first place.

Why don't some people do the tiniest bit of researching and self educating before buying or "rescuing" horses/any animals?

A whole world of information is literally at the fingertips of everyone with internet access.

At the end of the day it's the animal that always suffers

But you are never going to stop everybody buying from these shysters, sometimes they are even 'pity buys'. The dealer doesn't care, so long as they get the money. Going down the legal route, as OP has been advised to by a solicitor, actually hits them in the wallet, so does have an impact.

 

[TPO]

But you are never going to stop everybody buying from these shysters, sometimes they are even 'pity buys'. The dealer doesn't care, so long as they get the money. Going down the legal route, as OP has been advised to by a solicitor, actually hits them in the wallet, so does have an impact.

Until the next eejit appears. The onus has to be on the buyers to educate themselves (horses, dogs, monkeys...) and when the demand stops the supply will stop.

"Pity buy" (& then post that it was a "rescue"?) but don't cry mis-sold when it turns out not to be a push button ride.

This thread is one of hundreds of identical threads on here. How come they can find HHO quick enough* when they want all their money back but not prior to going to a dealer and buying unvetted, underweight, ill and sore horses?


*also applies to posters asking "how to" after buying (allegedly) unhandled or feral horses ?

 

[paddy555]

This thread is one of hundreds of identical threads on here. How come they can find HHO quick enough* when they want all their money back but not prior to going to a dealer and buying unvetted, underweight, ill and sore horses?

I've noticed that. A regular reader on here saying they were going to look at a horse would have been told to check out the dealer, advised def. a vet and given advice on which vet in that area, what to look for when they got there and everything else. (and all for nothing! )

Why not find HHO and ask before you go?

There are plenty of poor dealers but it must be exasperating for a reasonable one having to take and adequate horse back and refund to find an animal that has been damaged (mentally or physically) by the sale.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Until the next eejit appears. The onus has to be on the buyers to educate themselves (horses, dogs, monkeys...) and when the demand stops the supply will stop.

"Pity buy" (& then post that it was a "rescue"?) but don't cry mis-sold when it turns out not to be a push button ride.

This thread is one of hundreds of identical threads on here. How come they can find HHO quick enough* when they want all their money back but not prior to going to a dealer and buying unvetted, underweight, ill and sore horses?


*also applies to posters asking "how to" after buying (allegedly) unhandled or feral horses ?

I take your point and OP certainly doesn't sound like the 'experienced horse owner' that she describes herself as but tbf, it took her 4 months to find HHO . However rather than expecting a novice to sort out a challenging horse, imo the best advice for someone who has already bought a horse that was never going to behave as promised by the dealer is to take legal action.
I maintain that a decent dealer who found that they had sold a horse to an inexperienced numpty by accident would be happy to take the horse back and refund the cost.

 

[criso]

Part of it is that nothing is done about dodgy dealers. They are very plausible and good at what they do. They have other names and numbers to advertise under so googling won't help you find them. Occasionally someone gets their money back but more often they are stuck trying to deal with physical and behavioural problems.

There's quite a few dodgy known names not far from here. Horse's turn up being advertised under different seller names and if it gets sent back, pops up from someone else. It's less visible to someone like me who's not looking now you cant sell on Facebook but it's still happening. When selling was allowed on Facebook, their adverts were the majority of horses for sale in local horsey groups so hardly a small part of the market.

Somehow despite people in the know being aware of their activities, they never seem to suffer any real consequences, just the occasional Facebook spat.

 

[tristar]

I have, they have said he was a sensitive horse, and could be spooky. Give me a lot of his history and was handed back to the breeder because of a height dispute, but stating to think there was more to that story. The breeder was in Ireland and he was hunted for a season, I cannot imagine how he would have coped with this, perhaps this created some of his behaviour now or exasperated it.
I think he is a 1 person horse which is why I was tying to deal with him but I cannot put myself in danger and not prepared to ride him now.

hunted in ireland would be a warning bell for me

and what proper training did he get as a youngster before hunting for a season and at what age did he hunt

op sounds like if he cant even pull up he has not had a proper education before you got him, and everyone knows there is a huge possibility a thin quiet horse will change completely when a well fed conditioned one

his whole way of behaving is awful, he needs someone who can take a load of no notice of it and who can back off when needed yet be confident round him to bring him to a place where he can be re educated, not impossible if he has never learned in the first place how to be with people

i would get him checked out by the vet, and look for someone who is really good around horses on the ground, forget ridden work to start, someone like michael peace

and so sorry this has happened, and hope it goes the other way for you and the horse soon, whatever road you go down.

we have one come here recently, the old owner asked the other day, has he tried to kick you yet or gone mad, er no,

 

[Upthecreek]

Until the next eejit appears. The onus has to be on the buyers to educate themselves (horses, dogs, monkeys...) and when the demand stops the supply will stop.

"Pity buy" (& then post that it was a "rescue"?) but don't cry mis-sold when it turns out not to be a push button ride.

This thread is one of hundreds of identical threads on here. How come they can find HHO quick enough* when they want all their money back but not prior to going to a dealer and buying unvetted, underweight, ill and sore horses?


*also applies to posters asking "how to" after buying (allegedly) unhandled or feral horses ?

Michen said yesterday my post was “unnecessarily cruel without being remotely constructive”. It was not cruel. Cruel is not getting veterinary treatment for an animal in your care that is exhibiting behaviours for which pain is the most likely cause. It was constructive because I wrote it hoping that any inexperienced prospective horse buyers would read it and not buy a horse in poor condition from a bin end dealer and end up with the same problem as the OP, who has clearly checked out many posts ago anyway. Like you I find it so frustrating that people don’t do their research and ask for advice before making the purchase. So many horses are passed from pillar to post and suffer as a result.

I agree with everything you say. It is so common for people to come on here asking for advice (and then not like the advice they are given) after buying horses which turn out to be unsuitable. In this case, given the condition of the horse when she bought it and the type of dealer she bought it from, it was highly likely not to turn out well. Like you say, buyers need to do all they can to protect themselves from ending up in this situation because it is horrendously stressful, difficult and expensive to sort out when it does go wrong.

The best advice I was ever given about buying horses was don’t ever be afraid to walk away if alarm bells ring at the viewing or you are dubious about anything the seller is telling you. Even the most thorough and cautious buyer can still be unlucky and end up with a dud, but at least if you have bought a horse in good physical condition from a reputable dealer with a good reputation and had it vetted you are increasing your chances of success.

 

[Bernster]

OP not seen since page 2 of this thread ?‍

 

[Tiddlypom]

OP not seen since page 2 of this thread ?‍

But was last viewing the forum this morning just after 7am.

It's a useful general discussion even if the OP has bailed and/or the horse doesn't exist.

 

[jehsb]

How long ago did the bad behaviour start? What balancer do you give him and when did you start that?

Balancers send one of my horses absolutely off her head.

I second that, I have tried a couple of different balancers that turned my usually very level headed and sensible horse into a complete nervous wreck, literally jumping at his own shadow.

 

[PurBee]

It also could have been at the start when the horse did need more time to settle.

On the whole I think we underestimate the effects of moving yards/herds/routines people have in horses; even those that don't outwardly/obviously show it

So true TPO - my mare, described as ‘sweet, never kicks, bite etc” - same home and owner first 10yrs of her life, comes to me, within first month is hyper, escaping fields, cow kicked me just for standing beside her 3 feet away, bit my shoulder hard to tell me to get away from the hay i was giving. If i had tried riding her then, god knows what would have happened!

Managing her radically different behaviour, aswell as other stuff challenging me in life at the time, and her also giving birth to a foal....it made me ill really, as it was too much. So i do sympathise with people who deal with horses that really dont take change well. They become a different horse completely.

Instead i took it slow, so much ground work, establishing routine, which she was used to having.
After 6 months the mare trusted me more, and i her. Only THEN, did she become the ‘sweetie’ as described!

I had no riding ambitions with this mare, so if i had tried to ride during those 6 months, i dread to think what could have transpired.
Yet conversely, we have posts on here of folk with their new horse having a great half hour hack on the afternoon they arrive at new owners place! Some do change well, probably due to experience of it, and having GOOD experience of changes, while others learn change is bad, scary, due to either experiencing bad changes or never having experiencing it.

If OP got history on the horse being a live wire and spooky, i think the behaviour is ingrained and takes professional work to try to fix...is it pain? Just change/fear? It is a can of worms. She saved up for 4 yrs to buy a horse, and ends up in this situation. Such rotten luck.

 

[Kaylum]

I replied to a post on facebook recently when someone said whats this or that dealer like. I said do your homework on the horse and ask ask ask on social media about the horse. You will be surprised what pms you get not off the previous owners but from the yard owners, people who know the horse and even their friends.

I do feel sorry for people trusting what they see infront of them at the time, but there is so much information you can gather before even going to look.

My first horse was a total nightmare spooked at everything, threw me off at a show and galloped home, but taught me everything, how to fall off, how to school and how much work you need to do. I loaned him and didnt know any better but he turned out to be a fantastic jumper. I was just so pleased to have a horse that was 40 years ago.

 

[Rowreach]

I take your point and OP certainly doesn't sound like the 'experienced horse owner' that she describes herself as but tbf, it took her 4 months to find HHO . However rather than expecting a novice to sort out a challenging horse, imo the best advice for someone who has already bought a horse that was never going to behave as promised by the dealer is to take legal action.
I maintain that a decent dealer who found that they had sold a horse to an inexperienced numpty by accident would be happy to take the horse back and refund the cost.

But the seller, having only just found out there is a problem, has offered to take the horse back (albeit refunding the money in instalments).