Stuck, mis sold horse

[millikins]

A registered physio should not be treating a horse without a vet referral.

 

[LEC]

A registered physio should not be treating a horse without a vet referral.

They can now

 

[millikins]

They can now

I didn't know that, thanks

 

[TPO]

I didn't know that, thanks

I posted about it on another thread a wee while ago because it appeared online. I couldnt find much official other than an extract

It's a bit of a vague and foggy description iirc. Something like you can get a therapist without vets approval as long as it is for routine maintenance. If the therapist is to address an issue then vet's approval is required.

I may have understood it wrong and welcome being corrected!

 

[Upthecreek]

- Whatever is found to be wrong, may or may not be related to the behaviour
- Horse will still have to be rehabbed mentally and physically regardless
- Owner may not want to ever get back on horse if it's truly bolting (understandably)
- Owner may be worried a huge bill could be racked up but insurance may not pay out (certainly possible)


What are the chances of vet coming, finding something quickly and being 99% sure that's the issue, without needing to rack up a pretty hefty bill? How many of you have had a horse with a complex behavioural problem that's had a root cause diagnosed very easily- even if let's say a lameness is identified in a leg. Even then it's going to take scans and x rays and blocks to try and find out what it is. And it may or may not be the cause.

What difference does it make to the OP if the vet does find anything, if the horse HAS truly been misold, as she wants to send it back anyway?

This isn't a case of horse has gone lame, get a vet and you can at least *start somewhere* i.e pinpoint a leg then work your way through and identify if it's something that can or can't be managed. This is a behavioural problem, maybe caused by pain, you've got to not only find what's wrong but also then work out if fixing that is going to change the behaviour and that could take months as you'd need to take a punt on rehabbing first.

I can fully understand why, if the Op genuinely does feel the horse was misold, you'd simply want to cut your losses and try and get the dealer to return the horse without entering the world of veterinary diagnostics which may, OR MAY NOT, be covered by insurance.

The above is all on the basis that this is longstanding behaviour that started very soon after the op got the horse, which isn't entirely clear from the posts.

Based on my own experience, even if a vet came out and said this horse has a spur on it's spine- we can remove it and she will be 100% pain free/have no reason for rearing ever again- I'd have NEVER got back on that horse. Whatever the vet would or wouldn't have found would have been completely irrelevant to me, I wasn't going to be riding her again.

I just don’t think we have enough information to establish definitively that the horse has been mis-sold though. Personally after four months of ownership I would feel a sense of responsibility for the horse and I would want to know that I had done what I could to try to find the cause of the behaviour and I would most definitely spend my money on the insurance excess instead of on a horse whisperer and sending it to a behaviourist. Whether the vet does or doesn’t find anything she can still send the horse back within 6 months of purchase. I would have to try for my own peace of mind.

I wonder if OP has contacted previous owners?

 

[LegOn]

I'm not saying the dealer isnt dodgy and I'm not saying the OP isnt naive but unfortunately I think its an awful situation where there is no real right answer...

Its horrible to say it but OP if you were looking for your next heart horse who was going to be foot perfect in every way but you bought a horse from a dealer that was underweight, sore and covered in rainscald that in all honestly you didnt know what you were buying. Even with all the best experiences in the world prior to him ending up in a dealers, you were buying a horse that was in poor condition so you were never going to see his real personality or his trauma until he started to get a bit of his old self back... and maybe what has happened to him in the meantime has just been too much for him to be his old self again

Once they get a bit of weight on again, and his muscles have been underfed for so long, he might be tight and sore and have the pain muscle memory of being starved and hurt. Maybe he shut down a bit to just 'get through' the work they were doing with him and with your affection and kindness he started to show his pain again.

So all in all there could be a case of the dealer was happy to sell him on, but also you were happy to buy a horse that was obviously not in the best of condition in the hope he would return to his former glory with no issues.

Thats not to say you dont have a case with the dealer in terms of the law but also you have a very traumatised horse on your hands who might come right with the right handling - so its a very hard call, and I think all the internet opinions in the world arent going to help. You have to do what you feel you are able to do and what you manage to do. If you want to take the dealer up on the payment plan option - at least they have offered this, so it shows some admission and understanding of the situation.

 

[milliepops]

I posted about it on another thread a wee while ago because it appeared online. I couldnt find much official other than an extract

It's a bit of a vague and foggy description iirc. Something like you can get a therapist without vets approval as long as it is for routine maintenance. If the therapist is to address an issue then vet's approval is required.

I may have understood it wrong and welcome being corrected!

no, my understanding is the same as yours. I did a thread about it when a HHO article came out, the RCVS guidance is linked in it
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...ded-for-physio-etc-for-healthy-horses.798122/

 

[Michen]

I just don’t think we have enough information to establish definitively that the horse has been mis-sold though. Personally after four months of ownership I would feel a sense of responsibility for the horse and I would want to know that I had done what I could to try to find the cause of the behaviour and I would most definitely spend my money on the insurance excess instead of on a horse whisperer and sending it to a behaviourist. Whether the vet does or doesn’t find anything she can still send the horse back within 6 months of purchase. I would have to try for my own peace of mind.

I wonder if OP has contacted previous owners?

I do completely see your point, I think Op mistake was not properly rejecting the horse sooner. I just think that because the sale of the horse all sounds off in the first place, and it's history, it's price, it's condition... it's likely it WAS misold and therefore if I was the op and had finally come to terms with that or was convinced of it then I wouldn't be getting the vet- my priority would be sending the horse back.

 

[PeterNatt]

When buying (or selling) a horse, it is important to be clear about who you are entering into a contract with. You may consider the important factors are the horse itself, or its price but the identity of the parties to the sale will mean legal rights may (or may not) be implied into the sale.

Certain statutory rights apply only to a contract between a consumer and a trader, such as the rights that goods sold must be of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose.

If you agree to sell a horse on behalf of somebody it is important to be clear about your role to buyer and seller, before the sale is agreed. For this reason, many agents make clear in their advertisements that they are marketing the horse on behalf of a client.

When a buyer is dissatisfied with a horse after purchase, the law provides them with various routes to pursue a seller.

The buyer may be able to rely on the Consumer rights Act 2015 which provides that the horse sold in the course of a business to a consumer must be of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described. If the horse fails to meet any of these provisions, the buyer has rights including the right to reject the horse within 30 days of receiving it.

The buyer may also rely on representations made by the seller before the purchase, although it is more difficult to do so. This could be an oral statement made when the horse was being viewed or a statement in an advert.

If those statements turn out to be untrue, the buyer can allege that the seller has made a misrepresentation and that the buyer is entitled to damages or to return the horse and seek a refund.

An aggrieved buyer must set out their case in writing, and allow the seller time to respond (and to make any proposals to resolve the dispute) before issuing court proceedings, if no resolution can be reached, the buyer would have to issue a claim form at court to pursue the matter.

The parties will go through a process dictated by the court, which is likely to include exchanging documents and witness statements. At a trial the judge will consider the documents and listen to witnesses. If the parties are represented the judge will also hear from their solicitor or barrister.

The crucial issue in a dispute such as this is almost invariably what was said or agreed before the sale. Buyers will face difficulties in persuading a judge the seller told them something if there is no record. Witnesses memories become jaded so judges are far more interested in documentary evidence. Examples are E-mails, text messages and social media messages. If an issue is important to you it is best to have it recorded in a contract of sale, but if that is not practical, make sure you have documentary record of it.

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[criso]

Interesting about physios and vets. I used a different one recently who took my vets details to check they were happy for her to treat my horse though in the past others have taken my word for it and I know some never asked in the first place.

 

[TPO]

@LegOn makes very good points.

Would there be a difference in the eyes of the law between buying a "made" horse and buying a horse in a condition that could be classified as a rehab type project?

Would sold as seen apply buying an underweight horse with ailments (rainscald) in comparison to buying a healthy horse sold as a school master?

 

[criso]

I suspect it would depend on how the horse was advertised and represented to the buyer. There are different expectations of a horse sold as a project and one sold as a schoolmaster.

The OP says they have messages discussing what they wanted and the seller saying the horse was suitable.

Of course this is also where a vetting would have helped. A good vet would have highlighted the poor condition and any implications

 

[FireCracker238]

I completely agree it’s not just about the welfare of the horse, but I just can’t understand why the OP has not involved the vet when she has insurance to cover vet fees so will only have to pay the excess. To me it is the logical next step after having saddle checked, teeth checked and physio. Why wouldn’t you involve the vet? If a physical cause for the behaviour is found you know what you are dealing with and make a decision on the horse’s future accordingly. I just don’t get it ??‍

At no point has OP said the horse has been seen by a vet (?)

They said 'I am not contradicting you that vets would be the next course of action, but it would be who is this the responsibility of.'

Posts #29 & #35 would imply that there has been veterinary input, however the extent of their involvement hasn't been disclosed

 

[teddypops]

That would be lower value horses though, wouldn't it (not meant in a derogatory way, btw)? An earlier poster mentioned that a vetting was needed if you insure for north of £5k.

This horse is supposed to have been shown at county level, and was bought from a dealer at a time when horse prices are very inflated due to Covid. Unless the horse is ancient, I can't see anyone getting much change from £5k in such a purchase.

Yes I would have thought so, but I think the insurance company would have requested the vetting certificate if it was needed. I had to send Petplan a copy of my loan certificate for a pony I had on loan which I insured. (P.s. I love having cheap horses and making something of them!)

 

[fredflop]

the only further thing I can add to this thread is that firstly it shows the importance of getting a horse vetted, and obtaining a sales contract, if at all possible. Also the necessity of going down the correct legal channels.

perhaps also the wisdom of asking for advice on how to proceed with a “problem” horse. Any owner should budget to have back, teeth and saddler out to any horse they buy. In the case of the horse discussed here, I would probably also be getting the back checked by a different type of method; I’ve had horses where the physio has picked up on issues, the chiropractor hasn’t, and visa versa. Same professionals, different horses.

I have also been in a position where I wanted a behaviourist to come and look at my horse before a trip to the vets. To get to the vet would have cost me a fortune in transport, and the horse did have behavioural issues. The particular behaviourist I contacted wouldn’t come out without a trip to the vet first.

also worthwhile considering for this horse is cutting out all hard feed, and hay only. Turnout with friends, and a suitable amount of hay to eat can make a massive difference to a horse, and is easy to achieve.

I can understand why people in here are saying the OP shouldn’t have to be paying for vets investigations. That maybe as be, however they still have a duty of care to the animal. If possible I’d be suggesting a “holistic” vet such as Tom Beech or Rob Jackson who come and have a look at the whole horse. It should give an idea of problematic areas for the horse, and treatment to any areas required. For cases such as these, it can be a bit better “value” than taking the horse into the surgery for umpteen scans and X-rays. It may not cure the horse, but something productive can be gained from it.

 

[Rowreach]

Posts #29 & #35 would imply that there has been veterinary input, however the extent of their involvement hasn't been disclosed

Yes but then the OP says there were no xrays etc and seems to admit that the next step would be to involve a vet.

I've just re-read all of the OP's posts (there are some inconsistencies) to confirm that they did not experience any difficulty in or out of the stable when trying the horse, they did not contact the seller until recently, the seller has offered to re-sell the horse or buy it back in instalments. I don't really see what else the seller is expected to have done (except perhaps insist that the horse vetted before purchase).

 

[TPO]

Posts #29 & #35 would imply that there has been veterinary input, however the extent of their involvement hasn't been disclosed

Going to give quotes a bash so bear with me

I have spoke to his previous home who showed him. He went to a qualifier, then RI and 1 county show.
I am not contradicting you that vets would be the next course of action, but it would be who is this the responsibility of.

Post #42 I read that as vet not involved and of they were to be OP did not want to be responsible for any costs incurred

 

[Melody Grey]

Am I the only person who has picked up on this in the original post?
"He’s head shy and sensitive to brush, shoots to the back of the stable when you enter, tried to kick me when I tried to brush his more sensitive side."

'sensitive to brush', has a 'more sensitive side', 'not well fed previously'. A horse that tries to kick when you go to brush him in a particular place is in pain. This is all screaming 'ulcers' to me. I know, I know... I am normally the first person to raise any eyebrow when everyone jumps to 'ulcers' as the reason for all behavioural issues, but I really think it's a strong possibility here. OP, for the sake of the horse, and yourself, and all concerned, given that he's insured, I feel compelled to urge you to have a Succeed ulcer test done on the horse. It's completely non-invasive and is a fraction of the cost of scoping (about £60 + call-out). Not all vets do it, so find one that does. Look it up online.

Yes, as pointed out above, it still leaves you with an unsuitable horse, but potentially one that is fixable, and that could have some sort of useful life and be more settled, if not with you then elsewhere.

Re: ulcers- this is the first thing I thought too and would want any kind of work up to include scoping.

For info: the Succeed fecal test is notoriously unreliable and (in my opinion at least) isn’t a substitute for gastroscope for foregut ulcers, or ultrasound for hindgut inflammation. The succeed test looks for blood in the sample, hence will only detect ulcers if they’re actively bleeding, not all are.

 

[TPO]

Highly doubt OP will be back so just for discussions sake how does someone differentiate between a mis-sold horse and buying the wrong horse?

If I bought an advanced eventer it's very likely that I wouldn't be able to ride one side of it and it wouldn't be long until I was in trouble with fit eventer.

I could have told the seller my perception of myself and my abilities. I have ridden performance bred horses, I have jumped over xc fences and I have owned horses for decades. I could have tried the horse and it been foot perfect given it was regularly ridden by a good rider and it was tried in it's own surroundings.

But if I bought said horse sold to me as able to do the job I asked it to do then it goes wrong legally how does a judge *know* the difference between mis-sold or mis-bought?

 

[stormox]

Does it matter? Even if 'mis-bought' does the buyer still not have the same right to return?

 

[Winters100]

Highly doubt OP will be back so just for discussions sake how does someone differentiate between a mis-sold horse and buying the wrong horse?

If I bought an advanced eventer it's very likely that I wouldn't be able to ride one side of it and it wouldn't be long until I was in trouble with fit eventer.

I could have told the seller my perception of myself and my abilities. I have ridden performance bred horses, I have jumped over xc fences and I have owned horses for decades. I could have tried the horse and it been foot perfect given it was regularly ridden by a good rider and it was tried in it's own surroundings.

But if I bought said horse sold to me as able to do the job I asked it to do then it goes wrong legally how does a judge *know* the difference between mis-sold or mis-bought?

This is a very good point. I have bought the wrong horse in the past. Pro tried him and said he was sane and sensible, I tried him and he seemed the same, but unfortunately we were just not a good match, and once home while he was wonderful for a pro I did not have the same level of skill and confidence to bring the good side out of him. I never considered that I had been mis-sold the horse, just had to acknowledge that I had made a mistake and find a home for him where he was a good fit. He went to a much better and more confident rider than me and they loved him. I sold him having told the buyer everything about him, including the problems that we had with spooking. A few months later they were laughing that I had over exaggerated his spooking, to them he was just not always the bravest and needed to be jollied along sometimes. A horse who can be sensible and safe for one rider will not necessarily be the same for another, and I did not regret for a second finding him another home where he would be fully appreciated.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Highly doubt OP will be back so just for discussions sake how does someone differentiate between a mis-sold horse and buying the wrong horse?

If I bought an advanced eventer it's very likely that I wouldn't be able to ride one side of it and it wouldn't be long until I was in trouble with fit eventer.

I could have told the seller my perception of myself and my abilities. I have ridden performance bred horses, I have jumped over xc fences and I have owned horses for decades. I could have tried the horse and it been foot perfect given it was regularly ridden by a good rider and it was tried in it's own surroundings.

But if I bought said horse sold to me as able to do the job I asked it to do then it goes wrong legally how does a judge *know* the difference between mis-sold or mis-bought?

I think a judge would expect an experienced dealer to have been able to assess the rider's capability and match it, or not, to that required by the horse. Buying a horse from a dealer is, or should be, very different from buying from a private seller. And yes, I have bought several horses from both dealers and private sellers - and left several where they were.

 

[ycbm]

Does it matter? Even if 'mis-bought' does the buyer still not have the same right to return?

I think it depends on whether the horse is fit for the purpose that the buyer told the seller it was for. If the buyer gave the seller the impression/ information that they were far more experienced/skilled than they were, then the horse was fit for purpose as sold but not in the actuality of the ownership.
.

 

[Dexter]

At no point has OP said the horse has been seen by a vet (?)

They said 'I am not contradicting you that vets would be the next course of action, but it would be who is this the responsibility of.'

Post 40 says vet advice has been taken.

 

[Rowreach]

Post 40 says vet advice has been taken.

Well no, it doesn’t.

 

[Upthecreek]

I would expect by the sounds of it (horse was underweight, had rain scold & dealer can’t afford to refund the purchase price) we are talking about a bin end dealer who was not too bothered about the suitability of the home the horse was sold to. Why anyone would spend their hard saved cash on a horse like this is beyond me. Why anyone would not have a horse in poor physical condition vetted before agreeing to buy it is also difficult to understand. And why they would expect a dealer who obviously isn’t bothered about protecting their reputation to behave differently than they have is the most surprising thing of all.

Horse buying is always risky, but you have to at least try to stack the odds in your favour that it will work out. I am not saying I have no sympathy at all with the situation the OP is now in, but I’m afraid if you are an inexperienced buyer who buys a cheap horse in poor condition from a bin end dealer you are taking a huge gamble. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn’t.

 

[Michen]

I would expect by the sounds of it (horse was underweight, had rain scold & dealer can’t afford to refund the purchase price) we are talking about a bin end dealer who was not too bothered about the suitability of the home the horse was sold to. Why anyone would spend their hard saved cash on a horse like this is beyond me. Why anyone would not have a horse in poor physical condition vetted before agreeing to buy it is also difficult to understand. And why they would expect a dealer who obviously isn’t bothered about protecting their reputation to behave differently than they have is the most surprising thing of all.

Horse buying is always risky, but you have to at least try to stack the odds in your favour that it will work out. I am not saying I have no sympathy at all with the situation the OP is now in, but I’m afraid if you are an inexperienced buyer who buys a cheap horse in poor condition from a bin end dealer you are taking a huge gamble. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn’t.

Your empathy is overwhelming ? I assume you, unlike the op, has never made a mistake through inexperience.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would expect by the sounds of it (horse was underweight, had rain scold & dealer can’t afford to refund the purchase price) we are talking about a bin end dealer who was not too bothered about the suitability of the home the horse was sold to. Why anyone would spend their hard saved cash on a horse like this is beyond me. Why anyone would not have a horse in poor physical condition vetted before agreeing to buy it is also difficult to understand. And why they would expect a dealer who obviously isn’t bothered about protecting their reputation to behave differently than they have is the most surprising thing of all.

Horse buying is always risky, but you have to at least try to stack the odds in your favour that it will work out. I am not saying I have no sympathy at all with the situation the OP is now in, but I’m afraid if you are an inexperienced buyer who buys a cheap horse in poor condition from a bin end dealer you are taking a huge gamble. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn’t.

And the best way to stop bin end dealers is to hold them to account. If kind-hearted purchasers decide that they can't face sending their new horse back to face an uncertain future, the dealer gets away with it yet again.

 

[Upthecreek]

Your empathy is overwhelming ? I assume you, unlike the op, has never made a mistake through inexperience.

You’re a fine one to talk! You can be as blunt as you like yet, not to mention sarcastic, yet you frequently criticise others for expressing their opinion if it’s different to yours.

Yes I have made mistakes through inexperience, I’m sure we all have. No I have not ever shirked my responsibilities, left an animal in pain or passed a problem onto someone else.

 

[Michen]

You’re a fine one to talk! You can be as blunt as you like yet, not to mention sarcastic, yet you frequently criticise others for expressing their opinion if it’s different to yours.

Yes I have made mistakes through inexperience, I’m sure we all have. No I have not ever shirked my responsibilities, left an animal in pain or passed a problem onto someone else.

I am not/have not criticised you for expressing an opinion. That’s what a forum is all about, it’s full of opinions.

I’m criticising you for writing a post that, if the op is inexperienced (which it seems so), distressed and worried would leave her reeling and feeling probably pretty awful.

All you have done is basically tell her she is an idiot. Your post is unnecessarily cruel without being remotely constructive.

I hope the op doesn’t come back to this thread, and gets some proper advice.