Stuck, mis sold horse

[criso]

The other thing is we don't know that it's a physical issue. The previous owners said he was sensitive and spooky, if he was showing at a high level, he would have had professionals handling him; a bit of rough handling between them and the dealer would exacerbate this and the dealer has apparently said he would need a lot of time to settle in which raises a flag.

In which case he may have been wrong horse to sell to someone buying a horse after a long gap and looking for a horse that's not stressy or spooky.

 

[Spirit2021]

To be honest I don’t much about this type of subject . I say you’re going to find it very hard to return a horse after 6 months. To be honest it sounds like a doggy dealer that took advantage of your inexperienced.

 

[bubsqueaks]

As poster above this too screams possible Ulcers to me.
Ive had a particularly long drawn out saga of Glandular Ulcers - totally different type & particularly tricky to treat & vets dont know cause either.
Our pony within days of buying changed as above - didnt bolt but was running through the bridle - I would 100% recommend getting your vet out whilst going down the route of legals.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I think TPO has written the most articulate, sensible and thoughtful response out of the 100 or so replies but I am so saddened but this thread. It is obvious who the true animal/horse lovers on her are and whom the ones who just see them as disposable machines are.

The OP seems quite inexperienced in buying a poor horse with no vetting and then "bumbling" along for 4 months raising no complaint to the dealer and trying all "experts" except the one this horse needs which is a vet. The horse isinsured so only excess to cover. Most vets I have used will tweak their report to ensure a payout but to be honest even if they don't when you buy an animal you become responsible for everything about it, and that includes its well being and keeping it pain free, fed and sheltered. Tough poo of that means you end up having to cover vet bills. People should think more about this before purchasing, and why I am glad horse prices are through the roof, as it stops people buying cheap and seeing no value in them so not providing proper care.
Bunging them in a field when this horse is screaming out for someone to help it with its issues is beyond the pale.

Or it could just be that some of us know the law!

 

[Dexter]

Or it could just be that some of us know the law!

It always scares me how many people are prepared to state their opinion as fact, with absolutely no basis for that whatsoever. And how much victim blaming goes on when buyers get duped by dishonest and unscrupulous dealers.

 

[The Jokers Girl]

Or it could just be that some of us know the law!

Or some of you think you do, as you are all so wrapped up in the money side and being right you forget about the laws that state you are legally required to keep animals in your care suitably fed, watered and sheltered and free from pain, which includes having a vet attend, insured or not when it is in pain or injured

 

[Tarragon]

Oh dear - what a sad post.
In all honesty, I think that the poster has two options, either let the dealer take the horse back to be sold on, or put more effort and money into finding out what is wrong with the poor horse and take it from there.
Please just take some responsibility for the welfare of the poor horse.

 

[criso]

There is a third option. The OP said the dealer has offered to pay in installments as they don't have the money upfront. I might take that option with an agreement on timescale and payments drawn up legally. But being fully prepared to go straight to small claims if they default.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I remember Michen's terrible issues with the rearing horse and I want to make something clear - Michen is a good owner who was treated terribly by a dealer (who frankly put Michen's life in danger through their dishonesty) and rightly followed the legal route and won. She is not a bad owner and I am really not happy reading that some forum members who don't appear to know the whole saga have judged her so harshly and also heartlessly.

 

[TPO]

I remember Michen's terrible issues with the rearing horse and I want to make something clear - Michen is a good owner who was treated terribly by a dealer (who frankly put Michen's life in danger through their dishonesty) and rightly followed the legal route and won. She is not a bad owner and I am really not happy reading that some forum members who don't appear to know the whole saga have judged her so harshly and also heartlessly.

I agree, and forgive me if I'm wrong, but I *think* Michen took action fairly quickly after getting the horse home?

In the case whilst the dealer may be the dirtiest of dirty dealers the OP appears to be 4 months along before deciding that they want all their money back and the horse returned.

I think Michen had professionals involved in certain capacities PDQ. Solely based on what OP has written she has only engaged with a horse whisper and physio with the impression that they continued to ride (& jump?) the horse after those appointments. That would imply that either they said that the horse was fine to continue work or they didnt and OP continued regardless. Either way it doesnt help her claim to have been sold a dangerous horse?

I don't think anyone could ever question the care and attention that Michen's horses receive.

 

[Rowreach]

It always scares me how many people are prepared to state their opinion as fact, with absolutely no basis for that whatsoever. And how much victim blaming goes on when buyers get duped by dishonest and unscrupulous dealers.

Equally, you have a situation where a buyer can decide, within a 6 month period, that a horse is either not fit for purpose or had a pre-existing condition, and demand their money back having never apprised the seller of any problems or had a vet examine the horse?

Not all dealers are dodgy and not all buyers are perfect.
I

 

[Michen]

Thanks MC. X

Without meaning to derail the thread, yes I reported the behaviour quickly BUT I did try and continue with the mare. I took her to a fun ride and to a show and I guess on that basis I can see how OP may have been continueing or trying to make it work.

My dealer was very manipulative and I was inexperienced and nieve and can only thank god for the people on this forum who helped me.

I did not get a vet to the horse, I did all the other checks and then found her behaviour was long established (through some detective work) and had no interest in treating or rehabbing a horse which could flip itself over even if it was pain related. I was advised never to ride the horse again.

The horse went back to the dealer, she bred foals from it (unbelievable) and it died a few years ago during a foaling.

I wanted to PTS the mare and offered to settle for less money on the basis that I kept the horse and did that, but the dealer wouldn’t do it. And I’m afraid I couldn’t/wouldn’t kiss good bye to the purchase price in order to do so.

This story may be irrelevant in the context of the ops situation though, as we don’t really have enough info.

 

[Michen]

Ps just googled “my mare” with the word dam next to her name. She’s been described as a “dedicated broodmare” in a bit of text about her foal in an auction catalogue.

People never cease to amaze me..

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I think it is important when discussing these issues that we don't forget that accidents that can result in death, life changing injuries or even injuries that will heal, can and do happen. It isn't just about the horse's welfare or the money, it is far more complicated than that.

 

[DabDab]

I don't think anyone could ever question the care and attention that Michen's horses receive.

Pretty sure that is exactly what TJG did, hence MC's comment.

All irrelevant to the OP of course, but I'm pretty sure the OP won't come back now anyway...

 

[Pinkvboots]

Sorry but you are completely incorrect. Many insurers insure without a vetting, usually a 5k limit.

Your right neither of mine were vetted but I can still insure them.

 

[stormox]

How old is this horse?

 

[Upthecreek]

I think it is important when discussing these issues that we don't forget that accidents that can result in death, life changing injuries or even injuries that will heal, can and do happen. It isn't just about the horse's welfare or the money, it is far more complicated than that.

I completely agree it’s not just about the welfare of the horse, but I just can’t understand why the OP has not involved the vet when she has insurance to cover vet fees so will only have to pay the excess. To me it is the logical next step after having saddle checked, teeth checked and physio. Why wouldn’t you involve the vet? If a physical cause for the behaviour is found you know what you are dealing with and make a decision on the horse’s future accordingly. I just don’t get it ??‍

 

[ester]

Depends on your excess level, ours was £500 so not insignificant.

 

[paddy555]

. He’s head shy and sensitive to brush, shoots to the back of the stable when you enter, tried to kick me when I tried to brush his more sensitive side.

it's easy to blame a dealer and there is also the fact that if someone has a horse for 19 years they are very confident but with a new one is a whole new ball game. We don't seem to have been told his age. Other than TS we don't know much about his diet.

Everything is conjecture, I doubt OP will be back. They replies, as they often are with this sort of question, may not be what she wanted to hear. The horse could have been poor because of lockdown, dealer simply turned horses out in the field. Dealer may have offered vetting but OP turned it down.

The quote above however refers. OP stated she spent time in the stable when she went to look at the horse. If so then how did she not notice and worry about this behaviour?

I think asking a horse whisperer suggests inexperience.
The horse's problems don't just seem to involve riding but handling and even stabling as well.

We will never know but I do feel sorry for the horse. Someone needs to get a grip and start working through what could be wrong.

 

[Michen]

I completely agree it’s not just about the welfare of the horse, but I just can’t understand why the OP has not involved the vet when she has insurance to cover vet fees so will only have to pay the excess. To me it is the logical next step after having saddle checked, teeth checked and physio. Why wouldn’t you involve the vet? If a physical cause for the behaviour is found you know what you are dealing with and make a decision on the horse’s future accordingly. I just don’t get it ??‍

- Whatever is found to be wrong, may or may not be related to the behaviour
- Horse will still have to be rehabbed mentally and physically regardless
- Owner may not want to ever get back on horse if it's truly bolting (understandably)
- Owner may be worried a huge bill could be racked up but insurance may not pay out (certainly possible)


What are the chances of vet coming, finding something quickly and being 99% sure that's the issue, without needing to rack up a pretty hefty bill? How many of you have had a horse with a complex behavioural problem that's had a root cause diagnosed very easily- even if let's say a lameness is identified in a leg. Even then it's going to take scans and x rays and blocks to try and find out what it is. And it may or may not be the cause.

What difference does it make to the OP if the vet does find anything, if the horse HAS truly been misold, as she wants to send it back anyway?

This isn't a case of horse has gone lame, get a vet and you can at least *start somewhere* i.e pinpoint a leg then work your way through and identify if it's something that can or can't be managed. This is a behavioural problem, maybe caused by pain, you've got to not only find what's wrong but also then work out if fixing that is going to change the behaviour and that could take months as you'd need to take a punt on rehabbing first.

I can fully understand why, if the Op genuinely does feel the horse was misold, you'd simply want to cut your losses and try and get the dealer to return the horse without entering the world of veterinary diagnostics which may, OR MAY NOT, be covered by insurance.

The above is all on the basis that this is longstanding behaviour that started very soon after the op got the horse, which isn't entirely clear from the posts.

Based on my own experience, even if a vet came out and said this horse has a spur on it's spine- we can remove it and she will be 100% pain free/have no reason for rearing ever again- I'd have NEVER got back on that horse. Whatever the vet would or wouldn't have found would have been completely irrelevant to me, I wasn't going to be riding her again.

 

[Rowreach]

Depends on your excess level, ours was £500 so not insignificant.

But the cost of horse whisperers, behaviourists and a spell at schooling livery would soon cost more than that?

 

[ester]

true

 

[criso]

But if the dealer was telling the OP the horse needed more time to settle, it sounds like conversation s were had at an earlier stage.

 

[TPO]

But if the dealer was telling the OP the horse needed more time to settle, it sounds like conversation s were had at an earlier stage.

It also could have been at the start when the horse did need more time to settle.

On the whole I think we underestimate the effects of moving yards/herds/routines people have in horses; even those that don't outwardly/obviously show it

 

[Dexter]

But the cost of horse whisperers, behaviourists and a spell at schooling livery would soon cost more than that?

The OP says in one of her posts that she has had he vet out and followed their advice, so sounds like they havent recommended any sort of work up

 

[Bellaboo18]

The OP says in one of her posts that she has had he vet out and followed their advice, so sounds like they havent recommended any sort of work up

At no point has OP said the horse has been seen by a vet (?)

They said 'I am not contradicting you that vets would be the next course of action, but it would be who is this the responsibility of.'

 

[teddypops]

Usually insurers ask for a copy of the pre-purchase vetting so she probably doesn’t have cover for vet fees.

Not so. It depends how much you have paid for the horse. I have never had a horse vetted and have insured and made claims for most of them.

 

[criso]

It also could have been at the start when the horse did need more time to settle.

On the whole I think we underestimate the effects of moving yards/herds/routines people have in horses; even those that don't outwardly/obviously show it

Or it could be the dealer putting it off so it's then too late to return. It would also explain why the OP went down the behavioural route.

Add to that the previous owners who were showing him saying he was sensitive and spooky and if they are professionals, their definition of spooky and sensitive may not be the same as an amateur rider.

ETA I mentioned it to counter the claim that the dealer wasn't contacted till 4 months in. It sounds like there were earlier conversations.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Not so. It depends how much you have paid for the horse. I have never had a horse vetted and have insured and made claims for most of them.

That would be lower value horses though, wouldn't it (not meant in a derogatory way, btw)? An earlier poster mentioned that a vetting was needed if you insure for north of £5k.

This horse is supposed to have been shown at county level, and was bought from a dealer at a time when horse prices are very inflated due to Covid. Unless the horse is ancient, I can't see anyone getting much change from £5k in such a purchase.