The breeding and selling of banned breeds

[twiggy2]

Sorry to hear that twiggy. I know you will have done your best. Take care.

Thank you
The biggest thing for me was the fear of passing her on as everyone seems to think they can 'fix' them and many talk a good talk but just like horses few people can actually deliver the goods and its the animals that suffer.

 

[FestiveG]

One issue I would have with the idea of people reporting behaviour problems in dogs and action being taken on that. I do feel that if there is evidence of biting, then action can be taken, however other problematic behaviour could well be fabricated. Sadly it is far from unusual in personal/neighbour disputes for "authorities " to be complained to purely from spite!

 

[some show]

I agree - and also, would the powers that be distinguish between aggression and prey drive? There are sad cases where dogs with high prey drive wind up killing a puppy/cat/livestock because the owner disregards advice to muzzle them/keep them on lead. Totally not the dog's fault and certainly not related to being aggressive to humans, but people love to say 'it'll be a child next!' in those sort of cases.

 

[skinnydipper]

3 of my own dogs were attacked, one very badly and due to the severity of her injuries the police were informed. I would describe the attack by the husky as predatory aggression, it wanted to kill her. I don't believe it was the first time any of those dogs had attacked others and I felt the dogs should have been muzzled and under close control.

Fearfulness and reactivity shouldn't necessarily mean a one way ticket to the vet. A lot can be done to help a fearful dog with behaviour modification and training.

 

[twiggy2]

3 of my own dogs were attacked, one very badly and due to the severity of her injuries the police were informed. I would describe the attack by the husky as predatory aggression, it wanted to kill her. I don't believe it was the first time any of those dogs had attacked others and I felt the dogs should have been muzzled and under close control.

But fearfulness and reactivity shouldn't mean a one way ticket to the vet. It is possible to help those dogs with behaviour modification and training.

In the right hands fear aggression can be managed, it never goes away and those magical hands are few and far between and the people who can give lifelong management without any slip ups ever are like hens teeth.
A dog (any animal) does not know that the moments before pts are its last and many animals live terrible lives because people won't make that decision, I have had and managed fear aggressive dogs before (reactive dogs are a different thing for me) and the time and management are monumental.

 

[Clodagh]

How wonderful it is that there are so many perfect owners with perfect dogs but what, I wonder, are you going to do with all the reactive/aggressive dogs that people had from puppies where the owner either messed up big time or circumstances were beyond their control (dog with fear aggression from being attacked for example)?

If the dog cannot be kept from biting then it should be pts. Dogs are not so indispensable that they should be held sacrosanct until they kill or seriously maim someone.

Twiggy did a sensible thing, and more people should do the same.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Obviously however a fearful dog has more potential to progress into a balanced dog eventually

That's debatable

 

[DabDab]

That's debatable

Might just be something to do with my personality/experiences, but I've always found fear driven behaviours in both dogs and horses by far the hardest to work with.

 

[some show]

Just reminded me of this video of Sophia Yin using classical counterconditioning on a Jack Russell that's fearful of being blown on - such a great, concise example of changing that automatic fear response into joy! (obviously he's exercising some bite inhibition and threatening rather than full on attacking)

 

[Clodagh]

Just reminded me of this video of Sophia Yin using classical counterconditioning on a Jack Russell that's fearful of being blown on - such a great, concise example of changing that automatic fear response into joy! (obviously he's exercising some bite inhibition and threatening rather than full on attacking)

That’s very good. I wonder though..,
How many people have her reading of the situation and timing skills and patience.
Can that dog now be declared safe in all situations?

 

[planete]

That’s very good. I wonder though..,
How many people have her reading of the situation and timing skills and patience.
Can that dog now be declared safe in all situations?

You need the help of a very clued up behaviourist (not the average dog trainer) and a very committed owner to keep up the training and the management needed. Eventually you should end up with a safe dog IF the inborn temperament is ok. Big IF.

 

[Clodagh]

You need the help of a very clued up behaviourist (not the average dog trainer) and a very committed owner to keep up the training and the management needed. Eventually you should end up with a safe dog IF the inborn temperament is ok. Big IF.

I’m afraid too big an if to me.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I have recently been in the position of owning a dog from a puppy who experienced one negative event and became a biter, it was not her fault but with our lifestyle and hers it was not manageable in a way that meant she was not dealing with either a lot of stress or a lot of kennel time, she has been pts.
Far from a perfect dog owner but the dog is at peace and everyone is safe.
A very hard thing to do.

That's the thing isn't it? All dogs, whatever their breed deserve and need responsible owners, like twiggy2. Owners who have proved themselves to be irresponsible should be banned from keeping dogs for life. That includes the owners of 'poos' that jump over walls into other people's fields and upset their sheep, those owners who don't put their dogs on a lead on roads or other public places, those who leave their full poo-bags dangling form bushes that they pass along the way. And, yes, I know it would be difficult to police and won't happen.

 

[P3LH]

If the dog cannot be kept from biting then it should be pts. Dogs are not so indispensable that they should be held sacrosanct until they kill or seriously maim someone.

Twiggy did a sensible thing, and more people should do the same.

I agree. I have been in this position and pts too. It was a toy breed and they launched an unprovoked attack on a child. Without intervention and quick reaction that child would have been seriously damaged. I didn’t think twice although it was quite soul destroying.

 

[skinnydipper]

Sorry, folks. I've thought of a snag with the masterplan.

I must admit I just skim over the voluminous posts so I might have missed this small detail.

How do you know the name and address of the owners of the vicious dogs. I can tell you from experience that these are cool customers, they have been through the experience before and whereas you and I would be horrified if one of our dogs attacked another these guys aren't. Unsurprisingly they refuse to give you their details.

The police were unable to take any action following the horrific attack on my dog (her back looked like a piece of meat and it had removed muscle in two places) because I had no details for the owner. A description of the attack, the dog and the owner were put out on a local facebook group but no one came forward with the name of the owner.

I never saw him again. Neither have I seen the dogs/owners of the staffs or labs who attacked two of my other dogs.

These type of people don't bother to get their dogs chipped so I very much doubt they will be queuing up to take any test or apply for a license.

(interesting thing here, if you include the lurcher wearing a muzzle that tried to attack my dog recently, that's 4 different breed groups)

Also of note the staffs that were hung on my dog's neck bit once and inflicted puncture wounds whereas the husky attack was fast and furious, biting thighs and back and tearing at her flesh.

Oops, guilty of a lengthy post.

 

[bonny]

Sorry, folks. I've thought of a snag with the masterplan.

I must admit I just skim over the voluminous posts so I might have missed this small detail.

How do you know the name and address of the owners of the vicious dogs. I can tell you from experience that these are cool customers, they have been through the experience before and whereas you and I would be horrified if one of our dogs attacked another these guys aren't. Unsurprisingly they refuse to give you their details.

The police were unable to take any action following the horrific attack on my dog (her back looked like a piece of meat and it had removed muscle in two places) because I had no details for the owner. A description of the attack, the dog and the owner were put out on a local facebook group but no one came forward with the name of the owner.

I never saw him again. Neither have I seen the dogs/owners of the staffs or labs who attacked two of my other dogs.

These type of people don't bother to get their dogs chipped so I very much doubt they will be queuing up to take any test or apply for a license.

(interesting thing here, if you include the lurcher wearing a muzzle that tried to attack my dog recently, that's 4 different breed groups)

Also of note the staffs that were hung on my dog's neck bit once and inflicted puncture wounds whereas the husky attack was fast and furious, biting thighs and back and tearing at her flesh.

Oops, guilty of a lengthy post.

We were discussing dogs that attack humans, not dog on dog attacks which we all know the police aren’t interested in. I suspect that’s the right thing for the police to do otherwise we would need an army of police officers looking into whose dog did what, who started it etc

 

[skinnydipper]

We were discussing dogs that attack humans, not dog on dog attacks which we all know the police aren’t interested in. I suspect that’s the right thing for the police to do otherwise we would need an army of police officers looking into whose dog did what, who started it etc

You might have been, but if you read more carefully instead of jumping on my posts you would have seen that someone up-thread mentioned a family dog being killed by another dog.

 

[bonny]

You might have been, but if you read more carefully instead of jumping on my posts you would have seen that someone up-thread mentioned a family dog being killed by another dog.

I wasn’t jumping on your post but pointing out that dog attacks are a different thing to banned breed types attacking humans.

 

[skinnydipper]

I wasn’t jumping on your post but pointing out that dog attacks are a different thing to banned breed types attacking humans.

Okay, bonny, so do you think that the type of people who breed or buy banned breeds are going to put themselves forward to take tests or apply for a license because I don't think they would.

 

[bonny]

Okay, bonny, so do you think that the type of people who breed or buy banned breeds and going to put themselves forward to take tests or apply for a license because I don't think they would.

We don’t have tests or licences so rather a strange question !

 

[CorvusCorax]

At least one part of the UK still has dog licences and those who don't comply can and do end up in court/prosecuted.

 

[skinnydipper]

We don’t have tests or licences so rather a strange question !

Not really, not if you have been reading the suggestions in the posts above.

 

[bonny]

Not really, not if you have been reading the suggestions in the posts above.

Then ask the people suggesting that, it certainly wasn’t me

 

[skinnydipper]

At least one part of the UK still has dog licences and those who don't comply can and do end up in court/prosecuted.

How does that work with regard to banned breeds, CC? Can people apply for a licence for a breed that it is illegal to own?

 

[Clodagh]

SD, are you against any controls at all? Anyone own anything?

 

[skinnydipper]

SD, are you against any controls at all? Anyone own anything?

On the contrary. I think that the breeds banned were banned for good reason and that the ban should be upheld and enforced.

 

[Fellewell]

I'm very much in the 'deed not breed' camp.
As we know, decent horses are frequently ruined by nervous handling and the same is true of dogs. I was at a clinic where an owner was struggling with a completely 'out of control' /'dangerous' horse. The owner reeled off a series of things the horse didn't like/couldn't cope with to the trainer who pretended to listen while observing the horse. He then whispered 'spoilt brat more like' as he took the lead rope. The transformation was instant, it was as if the horse had exhaled for the first time in its life. That's the value of calmness and experience.
I've always found reactive dogs to be real people pleasers. They love to channel all that energy somewhere and really want a job to do. Unfortunately a nervous owner will be training passively, especially with a dog they want to protect them. Dogs love to oblige and if they pick up that you're pleased they've created a half mile exclusion zone around your house they will do their best to maintain it. But you can't do this without creating an 'off switch' because that's where it all goes wrong IMHO.

 

[CorvusCorax]

How does that work with regard to banned breeds, CC? Can people apply for a licence for a breed that it is illegal to own?

There have been cases where dogs have been licenced as a crossbreed or another breed that, have then come to attention of the issuing council for different reasons and have been impounded/destroyed, rightly or wrongly.

However it is difficult to prove a dog is or is not a pure bred or comes from the parents people say it does, when it is not registered and there is no DNA databank, that's where you have to go and use weights and measurements, often using another country or body's breed standard, like for the American Pit Bull Terrier, which is not even a recognised breed by the FCI-recognised organisation in the UK, the Kennel Club.
This throws into question the veracity of the whole way dogs are 'registered'. Without DNA, you can't really call a registry a registry, it's just a list of names that you pay for a business to hold.
In fact a registry of pure bred animals which does **not** use DNA is in contravention of EU guidelines, but I guess that's a moot point now.

 

[skinnydipper]

On the contrary. I think that the breeds banned were banned for good reason and that the ban should be upheld and enforced.

That is not to say that when identified these dogs should be put to sleep but they should be spayed/neutered and leashed and muzzled when in public places.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Strikes me that everything ends up boiling down to why do we have all these aggressive young men that are stereotypically the owners of dangerous, deliberately poorly-socialised bull-type dogs, and are pretty much passing on their aggressive tendencies to their dogs? Knife crime is rising too atm.

Get rid of bull breeds and these types will settle for Rotties, Malis, Cane Corsos etc. The dogs are just a means to an end. The end is the issue to be addressed.

This is such a good point.

On any forum or any discussion or any group of people discussing working dogs, you will get a small subsection of men, and it is always men, talking about REAL DOGS and STREET DOGS and LE DOGS who will BITE YOU FOR REAL and that silly sports dogs are weak PREY JUNKIES and can't do the job and won't protect you.
I'm happy with my 'imaginary dogs' because I don't need protection, don't need to prove a point and I don't have a small willy and live in my Mum's basement.