The breeding and selling of banned breeds

[P3LH]

in my opinion - and it is just mine so feel free to shoot down, I don’t believe these dogs are any more likely to attack me than the rough collie and pair of Pembroke corgis sat in front of me now (some probably a lot less than one of the corgis!) but the issue is when they do, they are capable of inflicting more damage than them due to their drive, jaw strength and high pain threshold even if physical intervention was used.

Something like a Caucasian ovcharka is totally different but in terms of the banned breeds no, I don’t think every one is going to kill me. I am wary of some I see locally, based on experience with them.

I live at the edge of the city but not in green and pleasant lands, and I do live on a housing estate - there is a rise in these XL bully types which are quite pit like, amongst others. Again I find it hit and miss depending on who is at the other end of the lead, but there are other breeds that spring to mind also like that.

It is a difficult one and there isn’t a black and white answer. When I was very small I was surrounded by bull breeds, mastiffs and Dobes. They were succeeded by wry working terriers who were more generally much sharper and a worry as much easier to push to bite - perhaps I have a slightly bias view as a result

 

[Clodagh]

There has been a huge risen in dog numbers and for non dog people it’s becoming an issue anyway even without a dangerous dog living next door. It must be a nightmare for some families.

I think this is the nub, everyone seems to have a dog these days, you used to only have one if you were in a situation to look after one (in the main) but with our instant gratification lifestyles these days people just don’t think.
Poverty can’t be such a big deal if everyone can afford a dog, right? (I don’t think it’s so simple). And I think as a race we are getting more stupid.

 

[DabDab]

It was more a response to our resident contrarian who said that 'a lot of people' would like to get rid of a whole host of breeds listed by GSD Woman. It's a bit like people who are pro the death penalty, if they had to drop the rope or administer the injection, they might not have the same view.

Yeah, I get that, but I really don't think that the majority of people put GSDs and Pitbulls in the same mental bracket, because it is just such totally different sets of risk factors between those two types of breed. (I appreciate that Bonny is certainly not the majority of people and has her own views on the matter ?)

In my mind dogs breeds are more like chemicals - the in-bred characteristics of different breeds and types have different associated types of risk. And laws regulating the possession and breeding of different types should be tailored to the different type of risk

 

[ester]

I think this is the nub, everyone seems to have a dog these days, you used to only have one if you were in a situation to look after one (in the main) but with our instant gratification lifestyles these days people just don’t think.
Poverty can’t be such a big deal if everyone can afford a dog, right? (I don’t think it’s so simple). And I think as a race we are getting more stupid.

Didn't everyone just turf their dogs out on the street for the day in the olden days

 

[Clodagh]

Didn't everyone just turf their dogs out on the street for the day in the olden days

And at least they were well socialised as a result ?

 

[DabDab]

And at least they were well socialised as a result ?

And well exercised with a varied diet

 

[twiggy2]

And at least they were well socialised as a result ?

And well exercised with a varied diet

Yes to both of these comments and of course if a dog is of a banned breed and you end up with in ebay default, cos you felt sorry for it etc etc then you can't give it either of the above things to help it become and well adjust member of society so the problem of them becoming unpleasant dogs is more probable

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Didn't everyone just turf their dogs out on the street for the day in the olden days

yes they did-certainly on the estate I lived on as a child in the 70s in surrey and OH’s in Glasgow. But they were almost all proper mongrels, lab mixes that were not that big and mostly had dog and people skills (although OH says that wasn’t the case in Drumchapel, but the people arguably didn’t have people skills, although they did have katanas).

Our own dogs were not turned out but neither did dad sweat it if the dog went roaming.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I take it that’s me and yes I think a lot of people would like to have no large potentially dangerous dogs living amongst them. I suspect everyone on here has dogs and don’t live on estates where pit bulls etc are an issue. It’s easy to sit in your nice rural home and discuss idiots elsewhere when you don’t have to live amongst them, or raise your children without worrying.
There has been a huge risen in dog numbers and for non dog people it’s becoming an issue anyway even without a dangerous dog living next door. It must be a nightmare for some families.

I rent a small bungalow in a town, but thanks.

 

[Moobli]

One of the points not yet raised (I don’t think) is that the majority of the fatal attacks in the UK take place in the home by a dog owned by a member of the family. Often the dogs are not socialised, properly trained and are under exercised. So rather than focusing on banning breeds per se, it might be better to focus on education surrounding choosing a breed suited to level of experience, time, commitment and skill of the owner. That said, a Labrador temperament will likely be more forgiving of the lack of proper care than a pit bull or similar.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

One of the points not yet raised (I don’t think) is that the majority of the fatal attacks in the UK take place in the home by a dog owned by a member of the family. Often the dogs are not socialised, properly trained and are under exercised. So rather than focusing on banning breeds per se, it might be better to focus on education surrounding choosing a breed suited to level of experience, time, commitment and skill of the owner. That said, a Labrador temperament will likely be more forgiving of the lack of proper care than a pit bull or similar.

But I want a big angry looking dog to take photos of to impress my mates on Facebook - even better if it has a 2 inch thick gold plated chunky necklace looking chain for a collar.

Being facetious of course, but the sub-section who this would apply to literally have the above as the main requirement of their dog and that’s about it. Some like to cuddle it now and again.

 

[stangs]

Strikes me that everything ends up boiling down to why do we have all these aggressive young men that are stereotypically the owners of dangerous, deliberately poorly-socialised bull-type dogs, and are pretty much passing on their aggressive tendencies to their dogs? Knife crime is rising too atm.

Get rid of bull breeds and these types will settle for Rotties, Malis, Cane Corsos etc. The dogs are just a means to an end. The end is the issue to be addressed.

 

[GSD Woman]

stangs, you nailed it. A county in Maryland banned pits. The wanna bes and gangstas got Cane Corsos, Filas and Dogos. These are not nice breeds to deal with if they aren't well trained and well controlled. Better knife crimes than guns.

Today while I was out training tracking some jackalope pulled up where we were parked and just let his untrained dog run up aggressively to a puppy that was on lead. I was nice enough to use the Lord's name in vain and yell at him to put his dog on leash. I couldn't hear his reply but the man with the puppy told him if he didn't have a reliable recall then his dog needs to be on a leash. It ended with the man flipping us off when he left. I believe he was also drunk. How does one control a bleepety bleep like that? And the dog was some sort of mix.

As far as living near people with pits, I do. I also see a good number of them at work. they are on the large much easier to deal with than the effing doodles.

I don't know the answer, especially in a country as large as the USA which has much bigger problems.

 

[palo1]

Strikes me that everything ends up boiling down to why do we have all these aggressive young men that are stereotypically the owners of dangerous, deliberately poorly-socialised bull-type dogs, and are pretty much passing on their aggressive tendencies to their dogs? Knife crime is rising too atm.

Get rid of bull breeds and these types will settle for Rotties, Malis, Cane Corsos etc. The dogs are just a means to an end. The end is the issue to be addressed.

This is true. Equally and equally sadly it seems to me that there are also stereotypically women who take on 'difficult' or 'rescue from a difficult home' dogs that they are unable to rehab and unable to afford the specialist behavioural help that the dogs need. I see this probably more than the urban young men with scary dog type situation but that is because of where I live. The dogs I see are pretty much held captive by people who 'love' them and want them to be ok but have nowhere near the resources or knowledge to make that happen. There they are, covered in harnesses with warnings with the dogs on constant alert (owners too actually) trying to make some kind of life as they avoid triggers and difficult situations and all manner of other things. Those dogs are still 'weaponised' but there is no control of how dogs can be bought and sold at all here.

The issues of why and how people want to 'rescue' one of these dogs is the flip side of why people want a scary dog and for me both of those scenarios are related to our total dislocation from understanding and having a healthy relationship with our companion animals/the planet. That is a hugely sweeping statement of course but as I watch my neighbour walking her pug, puffing away, dressed in his Christmas jumper whilst her out of control boxer who was 'rescued' from an urban home and who has form for sheep killing, drags her here there and everywhere whilst she exhaustedly explains how she is 'rehabbing' him (not successfully so far but lambs killed have been her mothers...) I just despair of the lot of dogs in our time.

I do know, thankfully, loads of really great dog owners and lovely well adjusted dogs but the fact that I am increasingly seeing problematical and barely rescued dogs in our very rural location suggests that problems are just on the rise. Sorry for the rant. Neighbour's barely breathing pug and mad boxer combo send me over the edge at times...

ETA - sorry I went off the point a bit but I agree that if you try to remove every kind of 'dangerous' breed, eventually you would end up with weaponised labs/spaniels etc. It is basically imposssible to avoid animals holding status in a modern, largely urban capitalist society.

 

[DabDab]

One of the points not yet raised (I don’t think) is that the majority of the fatal attacks in the UK take place in the home by a dog owned by a member of the family. Often the dogs are not socialised, properly trained and are under exercised. So rather than focusing on banning breeds per se, it might be better to focus on education surrounding choosing a breed suited to level of experience, time, commitment and skill of the owner. That said, a Labrador temperament will likely be more forgiving of the lack of proper care than a pit bull or similar.

Yeah, this is what I was (badly) getting at up thread, re different types posing different types of risk.

The current breed specific legislation is clearly pants and doesn't work, but I would support a licensing system with a breed/type specific element. I don't think just any old numpty should be able to go out and buy (and breed) a GSD, but the likes of you and CC obviously should. Likewise, terriers often get a bad rep (just read this thread?) because a lot of people don't seem to 'get' them and they are not the best with children. And so on and so forth.

Sensible people with a bit of experience know what they can deal with, and wouldn't take on a dog that is unsuitable for their training abilities/lifestyle/home setup. But there are an awful lot of numpties or people who just haven't got the experience to judge, and I think a clear set of rules/tests to pass to get a licence would go some way to stopping the clueless just buying anything they fancy.

I've seen a handful of dog fights, but only one proper attack where the attacking dog was unprovoked and really meant business, and in that on the aggressor was a Labrador. It was genuinely terrifying, like it just flipped, with no normal dog language signals beforehand that it was going to happen. I also have a friend whose daughter was badly attacked by a Labrador as a small child (and it was actually the household rottie that came to her rescue). I agree that a Labrador is unlikely to maul someone the way a Pitbull might, because it is not really in their genetic makeup, but the "labradors are affable" assumption I think is a little dangerous in itself.

 

[YorksG]

Agree with DabDab, labs could do some damage, given that they can puncture tins with their teeth!

 

[P3LH]

Agree with DabDab, labs could do some damage, given that they can puncture tins with their teeth!

We fostered a lab when I was younger, who took a chunk out of a family friends abdomen one day, completely unprovoked.

Any dog can do damage. It just comes down to what level of power, force and capability which is behind the dog doing it. And how much control, sense and brain power is at the other end of the lead.

 

[bonny]

We fostered a lab when I was younger, who took a chunk out of a family friends abdomen one day, completely unprovoked.

Any dog can do damage. It just comes down to what level of power, force and capability which is behind the dog doing it. And how much control, sense and brain power is at the other end of the lead.

I was just away looking for a recent case that was in the news of a woman mauled by the family Pitbull who inflicted terrible injuries including ripping off her arm and she was expected to lose both her legs....anyway I googled woman mauled by dog and ended up reading some of the cases. It’s gruesome, really gruesome, an example being a woman in Virginia who took her two pit bulls for a walk who turned on her, mauled her to death and then ate her. A friend was quoted as saying they were lovely dogs, would smother you in kisses.
Everybody saying Labrador’s, terriers, cockerpoos and whatever else on this thread are as bad/worse than pit bulls are missing the point of this thread which was what to do about banned breeds. Yes, all dogs can and do bite but that’s a different argument.

 

[YorksG]

I was just away looking for a recent case that was in the news of a woman mauled by the family Pitbull who inflicted terrible injuries including ripping off her arm and she was expected to lose both her legs....anyway I googled woman mauled by dog and ended up reading some of the cases. It’s gruesome, really gruesome, an example being a woman in Virginia who took her two pit bulls for a walk who turned on her, mauled her to death and then ate her. A friend was quoted as saying they were lovely dogs, would smother you in kisses.
Everybody saying Labrador’s, terriers, cockerpoos and whatever else on this thread are as bad/worse than pit bulls are missing the point of this thread which was what to do about banned breeds. Yes, all dogs can and do bite but that’s a different argument.

By your argument though, surely all dogs should be banned?

 

[bonny]

By your argument though, surely all dogs should be banned?

Where did I say that ? I was saying, badly maybe, that if the argument comes down to all dogs can bite then nothing will be done about dangerous dogs, and I’m talking about dogs that kill children and adults, rip limbs off etc.
Anyway, this argument just goes round in circles and we all know nothing will change in reality so what’s the point.

 

[GSD Woman]

Bonnie, if that is the case I'm thinking of the dogs were recent rescues with a history of bites. Dogs that should have had the pink juice not be sent to another state to kill someone.

 

[Clodagh]

Bonnie, if that is the case I'm thinking of the dogs were recent rescues with a history of bites. Dogs that should have had the pink juice not be sent to another state to kill someone.

I must admit I don’t understand the rehoming of a dog that has aggressively bitten.

 

[GSD Woman]

Neither do I. Too many rescues here are all sunshine, rainbows and fairy facts about aggressive dogs.

 

[skinnydipper]

How wonderful it is that there are so many perfect owners with perfect dogs but what, I wonder, are you going to do with all the reactive/aggressive dogs that people had from puppies where the owner either messed up big time or circumstances were beyond their control (dog with fear aggression from being attacked for example)?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

How wonderful it is that there are so many perfect owners with perfect dogs but what, I wonder, are you going to do with all the reactive/aggressive dogs that people had from puppies where the owner either messed up big time or circumstances were beyond their control (dog with fear aggression from being attacked for example)?

Dog undergo's temperament test, if it fails then the owners undergo a 'I'm not a moron I can own this dog resposibly and have half an idea how to train/manage it' test. If owners pass then get the dog back, with condition it is to be muzzled at all times and on a lead and minimum fence requirements. If the dog and owners fail then dog is PTS.

 

[twiggy2]

How wonderful it is that there are so many perfect owners with perfect dogs but what, I wonder, are you going to do with all the reactive/aggressive dogs that people had from puppies where the owner either messed up big time or circumstances were beyond their control (dog with fear aggression from being attacked for example)?

I have recently been in the position of owning a dog from a puppy who experienced one negative event and became a biter, it was not her fault but with our lifestyle and hers it was not manageable in a way that meant she was not dealing with either a lot of stress or a lot of kennel time, she has been pts.
Far from a perfect dog owner but the dog is at peace and everyone is safe.
A very hard thing to do.

 

[skinnydipper]

Dog undergo's temperament test, if it fails then the owners undergo a 'I'm not a moron I can own this dog resposibly and have half an idea how to train/manage it' test. If owners pass then get the dog back, with condition it is to be muzzled at all times and on a lead and minimum fence requirements. If the dog and owners fail then dog is PTS.

I am probably going to regret asking this but how would you test the temperament of a fearful dog?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I am probably going to regret asking this but how would you test the temperament of a fearful dog?

I haven't thought through the semantics of my idea as it's not something that will ever happen, but I would say that within reason, the source of the aggression/reactivity doesn't matter in so much as the dog would still fail the test, then the owners would be tested and so on as per my previous comment. Obviously however a fearful dog has more potential to progress into a balanced dog eventually and so the owners would be tested to see whether they had the ability to overcome this, or whether they would be able to work with a trainer well versed in it. Leash/muzzle rule would still apply

 

[skinnydipper]

I have recently been in the position of owning a dog from a puppy who experienced one negative event and became a biter, it was not her fault but with our lifestyle and hers it was not manageable in a way that meant she was not dealing with either a lot of stress or a lot of kennel time, she has been pts.
Far from a perfect dog owner but the dog is at peace and everyone is safe.
A very hard thing to do.

Sorry to hear that twiggy. I know you will have done your best. Take care.

 

[palo1]

How wonderful it is that there are so many perfect owners with perfect dogs but what, I wonder, are you going to do with all the reactive/aggressive dogs that people had from puppies where the owner either messed up big time or circumstances were beyond their control (dog with fear aggression from being attacked for example)?

I don't think perfection is necessary. I think a dog licensing scheme should be reinstated and incidents of aggression/anti-social behaviour taken very seriously; potentially with dogs pts and owners refused further licence to keep dogs. It isn't, to my mind, the worst thing for a dog facing a very difficult and/or restricted life to be pts. It is sad and ordinarily unnecessary and it is infuriating that people make a mess of keeping dogs. I think that may also help to dry up the somewhat unsavoury presence of 'for profit' rescue centres and discourage some people from casually purchasing a dog spontaneously and/or totally failing to train or socialise that dog.

My sister's dog was killed in front of her 6 year old son by a dog that regularly attacked other dogs whilst on a lead/under 'close' control. It is devastating and that attack could easily have been on a child so I do feel quite strongly about this because of that experience. It was devastatingly sad, horrific to view and potentially involved human casualties and fatalities. It's possible that that dog had become like that due to something outside the owner's control and those dogs that are in this situation are more difficult to deal with - I haven't got a solution for that other than again, incidents of trouble in public may need the owner to agree to conditions of licence for that dog. If that had been the case in the above scenario, that dog would have been pts long before it killed my sister's dog.

Of course, the licensing would pay, in part, for the policing of dogs but increasing dog attacks on people and of course on horse riders may make that politically and financially more acceptable.

None of this would necessarily prevent dog attacks from happening but it would make dog ownership and handling far less consequence-free and would potentially make owning of dog and exercising it in public less of an entitlement and more of a privelege that is earnt through reasonable control. I dunno, I worked in Parliament last time this was brought up (a long time ago lol!) and on the whole it isn't something parliamentarians really care about I don't think, even when tragic incidents keep happening. It makes me feel quite sick when I think of the damage that even a normal dog can inflict on a person (or another animal) but many people don't think the same.