twiggy2
Well-Known Member
They are on the roads and in fields with public footpaths across them though...
The breeding and selling of banned breeds
- Thread starter SecretSquirrel80
- Start date
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Sounds ridiculous because it is a completely false equivalency: horses, of any breed, are unlikely to attack people or children on a whim.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I should imagine they going out at night to avoid the idiots, like the woman who tried to hug my GSD despite me asking her not to stroke him. She said "but he looks so lovely" as she went to wrap her arms round him. She probably needed to change her underwear when he told her, very loudly, to back off.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
"We do know [Garcia] was attacked by ... a border collie. Rest are mixed breeds. We don't know what kinds of dogs they were," Bryant said.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tanyachen/group-of-dogs-attacked-killed-a-woman
'Devastated' mum tells of horrific moment dog 'savaged' toddler, 2, leaving him scarred for life
The toddler was left with "permanent scarring" after the border collie 'grabbed his face and shook him several times'.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/devastated-mum-tells-horrific-moment-21339931
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tanyachen/group-of-dogs-attacked-killed-a-woman
'Devastated' mum tells of horrific moment dog 'savaged' toddler, 2, leaving him scarred for life
The toddler was left with "permanent scarring" after the border collie 'grabbed his face and shook him several times'.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/devastated-mum-tells-horrific-moment-21339931
bonny
Well-Known Member
Does that really make sense when you read it back ? They snarl, bark and lunge at everyone anywhere near them but they are being walked at night to avoid people hugging them ! They are dangerous, they scare people, they certainly don’t look huggable.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
In your haste to reply you seem to have missed post #154.
bonny
Well-Known Member
No I didn’t
rowan666
Well-Known Member
Well that isn't true is it, for most riders the only hacking places we have are public places since most councils don't see fit to provide us with our own private roads and parks away from pedestrians ?
Also not really true either is it. There are literally hundreds of threads on here about aggressive horses.. I've come across a few in my lifetime, incidentally, all welsh ?
(I own a lovely Welsh so have nothing against them it's likely just a coincidence)
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Horses are not regularly attacking people with intent. An aggressive horse is far, far rarer than a dog which attacks people.Well that isn't true is it, for most riders the only hacking places we have are public places since most councils don't see fit to provide us with our own private roads and parks away from pedestrians ?
Also not really true either is it. There are literally hundreds of threads on here about aggressive horses.. I've come across a few in my lifetime, incidentally, all welsh ?
CorvusCorax
Justified & Ancient
I have been on horses that have nearly come through people's windscreens/landed on their bonnets. Fun times.
Have ummed and ahhed about whether or not to post again on this subject as it's really hard to sum up sometimes, to address Cortez' concerns about why people want to own the dogs they do, I suppose I would be classed as one of those people who would be asked, why do I want to own the dogs I do, I do train them in a sport where there is biting involved as part of one of three phases, but the key words there are 'trained' and 'sport'. They are not 'personal protection' dogs nor do I want or expect them to have a go at anyone who comes near me, what we do is extremely contextual and is more of a test of their genetics and ability to deal with stress/a breed selection tool which has been developed over 100 years. Control and obedience is prized above all else.
Temperament testing is a huge element, the judge must always be able to touch your dog, at the highest level, there is a very rigorous and intensive vet check where the dog cannot be distracted using food or a ball. Any sign of aggression, thanks very much for coming, but you're disqualified. As far as I am aware there has not been a DQ for aggression in the vet check at world level in my own sport since 2016 when a dog growled when a stethoscope was applied.
These are dogs which are very deliberately bred and selected to do the job or sport that they do and to work alongside people and live harmoniously in the home, often with children.
In a litter of working or service dogs, not all of them are going to cut the mustard, plenty of them go on to active pet homes without doing any harm to anyone. If it was not for civilians breeding these dogs, the police and army would have a hard time sourcing their own breeding and working dogs and the gene pool would be in an even worse state than it is already. Just because they are bred for one purpose does not mean their instincts cannot be channelled into something else.
As someone else once said, people who are trained in martial arts do not walk down the street karate chopping and round-housing people. As I said my dogs live in the home, walk down the street, cuddle my Mum and as mentioned in another thread, the older two who are now retired from high-level competition, have had two random men working in the garden all week and they haven't really taken them under their notice (they were on lead, obviously). The youngest is a bit of a scatterbrain but I know she will improve **with training**.
For me the biggest problems are with untrained/badly trained and under-stimulated dogs, dogs which have been badly bred/crap genetics, dogs which have been taken into a completely unsuitable home environment, owners who are completely unable to read dog body language or mitigate their living arrangements (for instance, there are some dogs owned by my friends who I would be happier that they were left outside when I visit!!), and for those working or service dogs who do go rogue, huge gaps in training and handling, which is a whole other debate.
However I will say that properly training these dogs is a lifestyle, it's not for everyone, and that's probably why there are so many wingnuts out there looking at YouTube videos, copying them and not realising that there were thousands of repetitions and a lot of science and theory behind the training to get there but think that because their dog barks on the end of a leash 'i hAve a PerSonAl pRoteCtion doG'.
Have ummed and ahhed about whether or not to post again on this subject as it's really hard to sum up sometimes, to address Cortez' concerns about why people want to own the dogs they do, I suppose I would be classed as one of those people who would be asked, why do I want to own the dogs I do, I do train them in a sport where there is biting involved as part of one of three phases, but the key words there are 'trained' and 'sport'. They are not 'personal protection' dogs nor do I want or expect them to have a go at anyone who comes near me, what we do is extremely contextual and is more of a test of their genetics and ability to deal with stress/a breed selection tool which has been developed over 100 years. Control and obedience is prized above all else.
Temperament testing is a huge element, the judge must always be able to touch your dog, at the highest level, there is a very rigorous and intensive vet check where the dog cannot be distracted using food or a ball. Any sign of aggression, thanks very much for coming, but you're disqualified. As far as I am aware there has not been a DQ for aggression in the vet check at world level in my own sport since 2016 when a dog growled when a stethoscope was applied.
These are dogs which are very deliberately bred and selected to do the job or sport that they do and to work alongside people and live harmoniously in the home, often with children.
In a litter of working or service dogs, not all of them are going to cut the mustard, plenty of them go on to active pet homes without doing any harm to anyone. If it was not for civilians breeding these dogs, the police and army would have a hard time sourcing their own breeding and working dogs and the gene pool would be in an even worse state than it is already. Just because they are bred for one purpose does not mean their instincts cannot be channelled into something else.
As someone else once said, people who are trained in martial arts do not walk down the street karate chopping and round-housing people. As I said my dogs live in the home, walk down the street, cuddle my Mum and as mentioned in another thread, the older two who are now retired from high-level competition, have had two random men working in the garden all week and they haven't really taken them under their notice (they were on lead, obviously). The youngest is a bit of a scatterbrain but I know she will improve **with training**.
For me the biggest problems are with untrained/badly trained and under-stimulated dogs, dogs which have been badly bred/crap genetics, dogs which have been taken into a completely unsuitable home environment, owners who are completely unable to read dog body language or mitigate their living arrangements (for instance, there are some dogs owned by my friends who I would be happier that they were left outside when I visit!!), and for those working or service dogs who do go rogue, huge gaps in training and handling, which is a whole other debate.
However I will say that properly training these dogs is a lifestyle, it's not for everyone, and that's probably why there are so many wingnuts out there looking at YouTube videos, copying them and not realising that there were thousands of repetitions and a lot of science and theory behind the training to get there but think that because their dog barks on the end of a leash 'i hAve a PerSonAl pRoteCtion doG'.
CorvusCorax
Justified & Ancient
Also, if people want to continue seeing those dogs with the mental strength and ability to chase down and apprehend criminals, find missing people, recover cadavers, sniff out bombs in the desert on the end of a long line, go into a room with a terrorist in it and hold him in place before the tactical unit get there and so many other jobs of varying importance, then they're going to have to put up with civilians like me owning, breeding and training them in a different way, it all comes from the same place, genetically and you won't have one without the other IMO.
I can't speak to bull breeds/what motivates people who own them, but that's my position anyhoo.
I can't speak to bull breeds/what motivates people who own them, but that's my position anyhoo.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Bull terriers and mastiffs have been mentioned on this thread. Here is my experience:
My dog is very sweet natured and calm. People are drawn to her and she loves the attention. She has had strangers fuss her and kiss the top of her head or bend down and go nose to nose with her (not something I would do to someone else's dog but that's people for you). She is very gentle with children, they like to pet her. Suggestions from the parents that their child could ride her are firmly rejected.
I joke that she has her own fan club.
She is excellent with other dogs and patient with puppies. She has many dog friends and is always keen to make new ones. She is allowed off lead to play with her friends.
She is tolerant of those dogs who are rude, rambunctious or aggressive.
She is a mastiff mix.
My bull terrier was eager to please and was everyone's friend, human and canine, throughout her 13 years with me.
Reasons for owning - they needed a home.
My dog is very sweet natured and calm. People are drawn to her and she loves the attention. She has had strangers fuss her and kiss the top of her head or bend down and go nose to nose with her (not something I would do to someone else's dog but that's people for you). She is very gentle with children, they like to pet her. Suggestions from the parents that their child could ride her are firmly rejected.
I joke that she has her own fan club.
She is excellent with other dogs and patient with puppies. She has many dog friends and is always keen to make new ones. She is allowed off lead to play with her friends.
She is tolerant of those dogs who are rude, rambunctious or aggressive.
She is a mastiff mix.
My bull terrier was eager to please and was everyone's friend, human and canine, throughout her 13 years with me.
Reasons for owning - they needed a home.
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AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I occasionally use Tik Tok (guilty pleasure to wind down before bed - I’m too old for it, I know!) and I don’t know why but I have now had about 4 videos randomly come up on my page all involving pit bull attacks on other dogs; I haven’t been able to finish watching a single one. I have to honestly say that I am going to completely back track on my stance and say that I would support the eradication of the breed fully, either by banning breeding and naturally have them die out or I don’t know how.
I am not tarring them all with the same brush, I know there are some lovely ones out there, but what makes me uncomfortable is the fact that regardless of the situation they do not let go once bitten. Even if they have completely degloved the other dogs leg, and the other dog is laid down in complete surrender and screaming. People had lifted the dogs back legs, they weren’t beating the dog and he just wouldn’t give up the attack trying to gain ground - it was hideous and near on brought me to tears. That’s not a normal state of mind for any domesticated animal, and especially not one so ‘readily’ available.
I still don’t support the destruction of dogs based on measurements or their appearance but just thought I’d I were vocal about my opinion being one way, I should hold my hands up if that opinion changes.
I am not tarring them all with the same brush, I know there are some lovely ones out there, but what makes me uncomfortable is the fact that regardless of the situation they do not let go once bitten. Even if they have completely degloved the other dogs leg, and the other dog is laid down in complete surrender and screaming. People had lifted the dogs back legs, they weren’t beating the dog and he just wouldn’t give up the attack trying to gain ground - it was hideous and near on brought me to tears. That’s not a normal state of mind for any domesticated animal, and especially not one so ‘readily’ available.
I still don’t support the destruction of dogs based on measurements or their appearance but just thought I’d I were vocal about my opinion being one way, I should hold my hands up if that opinion changes.
GSD Woman
Well-Known Member
ASBmO,
Unfortunately that has been bred into these dogs for hundreds of generations. I certainly don't trust one that I don't know very well around my dogs and don't trust them with small animals.
Some are far enough away from the battle dogs that they aren't as bad but when people aren't careful of the breeder and background it tends to be a disaster. Maybe some sort of test for potential owners to make sure they understand the risks of owning such dogs.
Unfortunately that has been bred into these dogs for hundreds of generations. I certainly don't trust one that I don't know very well around my dogs and don't trust them with small animals.
Some are far enough away from the battle dogs that they aren't as bad but when people aren't careful of the breeder and background it tends to be a disaster. Maybe some sort of test for potential owners to make sure they understand the risks of owning such dogs.
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
No tests or checks are 100% reliable; people lie, dogs get stolen
Wouldn't it be better if these dogs just didn't exist?
Wouldn't it be better if these dogs just didn't exist?
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Deleted
GSD Woman
Well-Known Member
People drive cars without licenses or insurance. They drive drunk and under the influence of various drugs. Maybe cars shouldn't exist.
Seriously, good luck with getting rid of pit bull types. All you'll do is what it appears the UK has done; drive the breeding underground. Yes, there are tons of pit bulls in the US and yes, there are bad ones and bad owners. The same can be said for just about any powerful breed. Do we just get rid of all of those breeds too? Cane Corsos, Akitas, Filas, Dogos, Rottweilers, Dobermans, English Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Dobermans, German Shepherd Dogs, and the list could go on.
bonny
Well-Known Member
There are a lot of people who would say yes
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I completely agree with your second paragraph, but my distinction would be are these dogs genetically bred to not let go once bitten, are they genetically bred to take a natural dislike to all other animals - regardless of body language. Hard to police as some breed lines will be better than others, and there will be individual outliers that are either unnaturally good or unnaturally bad.. but that would be personally where I would draw the line.
CorvusCorax
Justified & Ancient
So, the people who think these breeds should be wiped out en masse, would you, personally, put the needle in a dog that has done nothing wrong?
And again, wave goodbye to a lot of those working and service dogs that society relies upon.
And again, wave goodbye to a lot of those working and service dogs that society relies upon.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
on the whole its the owners not the dogs, now some of them i would happily put a needle in !! i dont know the answer but getting rid of all large dog breeds isnt it...eliminating back street breeders and puppy farms would be a start..all breeders should be registered so dogs with dodgy temperaments could be traced back and the breeders shut down.., we all know nothing will be done 
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Do many of you feel there should be no controls?
It seems we have ban them or have no issue with them.
There must be some middle grounds where the idiots that leave these incredibly dangerous dogs in situations where they can kill people can be monitored.
The old fashioned dog license would be a start.
It seems we have ban them or have no issue with them.
There must be some middle grounds where the idiots that leave these incredibly dangerous dogs in situations where they can kill people can be monitored.
The old fashioned dog license would be a start.
bonny
Well-Known Member
Who decides who is an idiot and who isn’t ? I can’t see any workable scheme that would help.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Neither do I really - I absolutely don't and never have supported culling dogs en masse, so the only solution would be to temperament test all pits and other 'attack' (can't think of the right word) breed dogs as the poster listed that I quoted before, all dogs trained as service or protection dogs would also test obedience in a bite situation or recall situation to ensure adequate control of protection commands. Temprament test to include casual encounters with all size dogs, well behaved children, people and visitors to the home eg: mail man. Any anxiety around being left or food aggression etc tested for etc etc..
For those that fail the temperament test the focus should then be switched onto the owner and whether the owner can pass a test to show that they are resonsible and have the correct experience to control the dog. It could then also be enforced that a muzzle be worn at all times outside of the home, and minimum fencing requirements for containing in the garden. Muzzle dogs marked with some sort of tag, collar colour or mark on the ear.
All breeders then, without breed discrimination, should be licensed and fully checked out - all litters declared and all pups temperament tested before leaving the breeders home at a centralised centre.
Should a dog either prove itself unreliable, be seen without a muzzle on more than one occasion or fail the temperament test and the owner isn't responsible or willing to work with a trainer and re-test, then the dog is destroyed.
All imports will be checked and temperament tested as part of their quarantine upon being imported. All tails/ears docked dogs are immediately sent back and not allowed in the country.
Is any of that pratically and financially remotely feasible, no. Will anything close to that ever happen? No. We will just comtinue destroying random dogs due to arbitrary measurement and ban pitbull types but without really policing it which just makes them more desireable? Absolutely!
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splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
absolutely agree. nothing constructive will b e done..
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
I don't think any breed should be wiped out en masse, and I agree with your post up thread. But I'm not sure if you are being a bit sensitive - I thought this discussion was about certain bull breeds, not GSDs or similar...? And the discussion around the likes of Pitbulls is that they don't have a use really so the only draw is as a pet. And of people that want them as pets, there are a decent amount for whom the guard dog element is the main driver.
I love staffies but I wouldn't want to negotiate the minefield of acquiring a dog/cat neutral one. That's not me being judgemental, just realistic based on my own experience. And I think that the aggressive traits should be bred out of them, but for all their belly aching no bull breed society that I am aware of has actively said that they will introduce vigilant screening for aggression
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Muzzle and on leash, please.
Twice in recent weeks I've had to deal with an aggressive lurcher wearing a muzzle who wanted to inflict harm on my dog. The owner was most definitely in the idiot category.
CorvusCorax
Justified & Ancient
It was more a response to our resident contrarian who said that 'a lot of people' would like to get rid of a whole host of breeds listed by GSD Woman. It's a bit like people who are pro the death penalty, if they had to drop the rope or administer the injection, they might not have the same view.
bonny
Well-Known Member
I take it that’s me and yes I think a lot of people would like to have no large potentially dangerous dogs living amongst them. I suspect everyone on here has dogs and don’t live on estates where pit bulls etc are an issue. It’s easy to sit in your nice rural home and discuss idiots elsewhere when you don’t have to live amongst them, or raise your children without worrying.
There has been a huge risen in dog numbers and for non dog people it’s becoming an issue anyway even without a dangerous dog living next door. It must be a nightmare for some families.
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
I honestly think we were in a better position before we banned these breeds, all we have done is push the breeding of them underground and made them a more sought after status ymbol with no regulation on breeding or temperament testing, for me it means there is less and less dilution of the undesirable traits because less good breeding is going on.