The 'Grand' National?

I wish I had the skills to cut and paste Aidan coleman being ditched into the fence. It is amazing. And he has horse after horse flying over his head. Him sayin 'can I get up yet.' Then immediately runs to catch loose horses. Those guys care more for the horses than for themselves.
As for the crit of Many Clouds running. I did have my heart in my mouth. But they did all the right things by him. And he's fine. And he won! And here's hoping Balthazar King, is going to be ok, too.
As for Clare balding not being there. Was always a big fan of hers. But didn't miss her at all. Thought the c4 team did a great job. And Clare is in danger of being rather over exposed, I fear.
 
madmav said:
I wish I had the skills to cut and paste Aidan coleman being ditched into the fence. It is amazing. And he has horse after horse flying over his head. Him sayin 'can I get up yet.' Then immediately runs to catch loose horses. Those guys care more for the horses than for themselves.
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it was the 'can I get up yet?' 'NO' and the 'I'll grab a horse, hey, that's my horse!' that cracked me up, great bit of footage and it was nice to see the horse get a big pat and a bit of reassurance as well.

I actually really like the jockeycam/hatcam footage, I find it interesting to see it from the riders point of view - although I wonder what sort of camera they use
 
sasquatch said:
it was the 'can I get up yet?' 'NO' and the 'I'll grab a horse, hey, that's my horse!' that cracked me up, great bit of footage and it was nice to see the horse get a big pat and a bit of reassurance as well.

I actually really like the jockeycam/hatcam footage, I find it interesting to see it from the riders point of view - although I wonder what sort of camera they use
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Usually the hatcam is the kiss of death and many jockeys refused to wear one for a few years after 2 or 3 Nationals where it never made it past a circuit! I'm surenit was Sam Thomas that had it on the other year, on a bright sunny day, when his horse refused and all you could see was his shadow starfishing it down to the ground on the other side of the fence from the horse!
 
I get increasingly uncomfortable watching racing. I vowed never to put money on Leighton Aspall after watching him thrash horses home in the past. I think if the horses jump for love and work within their physical capabilities then get rid of the whips they aren't needed. Many Clouds would not have run himself to near death that way.

I am no bunny hugger, I enjoyed much of the GN yesterday, there was some outstanding jumping, but people are delusional if they don't believe the industry has some major welfare issues.
 
ycbm said:
If an eventer had a horse that did that at the end of every cross country, the horse would be retired to a less stressful job, surely?
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I used to event my horse (Grassroots level). He suffered in the heat and once overheated in his stable. I would withdraw if the forecast was for hot weather, but he was great in rain :)

I enjoy watching a good horse go round the National and making it look easy, however yesterday made me question what we ask our horses to do at times when I saw the fall at the Canal Turn and then the winner almost collapsing.

I can't see any point in banning the National in isolation because horses die in races all year round. And a friend of mine lost three horses in field accidents, two broken legs and one broken neck, but I wouldn't dream of keeping my horses constantly stabled.
 
Whips are needed though - not necessarily in a finish if you deem all races should be driven out hands and heels - but from a safety aspect. A smack down the shoulder can straighten out a drifting horse and can keep up the momentum into a fence. Would you go round a show jumping or xc course without one? I hugely doubt it!

And as of yet no jockey got a ban/telling off for over use of the whip in this years National. 9 smacks in 4 1/2 miles really isn't that many! And I think it's only 2 or 3, maybe 4 you are allowed to give them after the last. Most of what you see is the showing of the whip, it very rarely actually connects with the horse.
 
bonny said:
Whatever happened today there would be people on here complaining about it.....how about the fact that all the horses are ok with one exception who was injured in a freak accident and probably will be ok. There were very few fallers and a lot of horses finishing. It will be the end of the race if it is tampered with anymore, as it is it's becoming a lot of hype over a staying handicap chase, without the sense of history today would have just been another saturday jump meeting.
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Hear, hear. I watched with my heart in my mouth, hoping that all the runners would be OK, but really enjoyed it in the end. I was slightly worried that the winner was going to collapse in full view of the cameras, when he was wobbling around, which would have wiped the smile off the presenters' faces.

Poor Oliver Sherwood was desperate to get to his horse, but dealt with it well in the end, and it was a good move to have the horse back in the paddock when he had recovered.

Remember that the combination of owner, trainer and jockey all want to win and in the National if the horse is fit and well to run and the ground is suitable, then they are going to take their chance, because the chance might never come again.
 
Orangehorse said:
Hear, hear. I watched with my heart in my mouth, hoping that all the runners would be OK, but really enjoyed it in the end. I was slightly worried that the winner was going to collapse in full view of the cameras, when he was wobbling around, which would have wiped the smile off the presenters' faces.
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Personally I was worried the horse was going to collapse full stop, not just whether it was going to collapse infront of the cameras.

As you rightly said, the owners, trainers and jockeys do want to win. It seems that sadly welfare comes second to that.
 
MC didn't look exhausted on the run in, he pricked his ears jumping the last and I didn't see excessive use of the whip. I know it was pre rule change but when Ballabriggs was beaten to near collapsing I found that very upsetting, MC didn't look distressed while running, he looked like he was staying on well.
I do think the jockeys - not just the winner - should hop off straight after the race on the course and unsaddle immediately. If everyone did it it would become the norm.
So glad BK made it up.
So sad about Seedling.
 
Interesting point relating to whether the horses want to keep jumping after parting with their jockey or just "run with the herd"... On Friday Sire Du Grugy (sp?) fell, got up and continued, but left the "herd", ending up on the National course and jumping the Chair and water jump, earning huge applause from the crowd...I'm sure he would have gone past them and/or turned back if he hadn't wanted to run and jump! Mostly it does look like they follow/stay with the others for a short while before realising they can choose to head back to the stables by themselves.
 
Clodagh said:
MC didn't look exhausted on the run in, he pricked his ears jumping the last and I didn't see excessive use of the whip. I know it was pre rule change but when Ballabriggs was beaten to near collapsing I found that very upsetting, MC didn't look distressed while running, he looked like he was staying on well.
I do think the jockeys - not just the winner - should hop off straight after the race on the course and unsaddle immediately. If everyone did it it would become the norm.
So glad BK made it up.
So sad about Seedling.
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That's a good idea Clodagh, but not all racecourses could have washdown facilites at the winning post and often the winning post is close to the paddock. Not many races have so many horses, nor are they so long, which must be part of the problem. It's worth writing to BHA suggesting it.
 
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Moomin1 said:
Personally I was worried the horse was going to collapse full stop, not just whether it was going to collapse infront of the cameras.

As you rightly said, the owners, trainers and jockeys do want to win. It seems that sadly welfare comes second to that.
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Totally agree with you but alas things will never change. Hope he is OK today.
 
madmav said:
As for the crit of Many Clouds running. I did have my heart in my mouth. But they did all the right things by him. And he's fine. And he won! And here's hoping Balthazar King, is going to be ok, too.
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I disagree. They did the right thing eventually, but not immediately. Those few minutes of delay nearly cost MC his life. Yes, some water was being thrown over him, but not enough and there was too much delay in getting fresh buckets. The jockey still being aboard meant that his middle wasn't reached.

As a known over heater, he should have been unsaddled as soon as he pulled up, 4 people with buckets of iced water should have immediately doused him (one on each quarter of the horse) and then he should have been taken to the official cooling off area.

Anyhow, hopefully the issue of the post race care of overheating horses will now be addressed more carefully. Improvements have been made (water being available at the finish) but it needs refining.

All best vibes for BK.
 
I'm pretty staggered by the few posters who said that the loose horses jump because 'that's what they're bred to do'.

They're running with the herd. They are fight or FLIGHT animals. Of course they're following everyone else - if they don't do that in the wild they end up in the chops of a predator!

They are high to their eyeballs on adrenaline and anxiety. Do you think they are just going to stop and have a munch on the grass while the rest of the pack gallops away?
 
It has improved, only a few years ago traditional people would never have put cold water on a hot horse. Much has been learned from endurance, but they can do more. A few buckets is not enough, it should be ice water, with the horse scraped off in between buckets or you just end up with a wet horse with warm water on it which wont help cool. There are even rugs with a chemical coolant which can be used instead of water with the same cooling effect. If a horse has a known tendancy to overheat on exertion, every measure should be in place for when they cross the finish.
 
pip6 said:
It has improved, only a few years ago traditional people would never have put cold water on a hot horse. Much has been learned from endurance, but they can do more. A few buckets is not enough, it should be ice water, with the horse scraped off in between buckets or you just end up with a wet horse with warm water on it which wont help cool. There are even rugs with a chemical coolant which can be used instead of water with the same cooling effect. If a horse has a known tendancy to overheat on exertion, every measure should be in place for when they cross the finish.
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IMO if a horse is known to overheat, they shouldn't be running a race such as the National in the first place. It's a disaster waiting to happen.
 
I have already commented on a FB page about this.
A friend phoned me at the end of the race saying that the scenes had persuaded her to campaign against the race. She has no first hand knowledge of horses, unlike the posters on this site or on the Facebook page.
The scenes will have done much to reinforce some of the arguments of Peta and Animal Aid. Yes we know the horses are not whipped to exhaustion and know about whips having used them ourselves, casual once a year watchers maybe do not. Don't forget many, many people will watch to see how the horse they drew in a workplace sweepstake did and they will have seen the overheated winner staggering about. It was an ugly scene.
I really do think the "mike on a pole" should go, I am certain this held Leighton Aspell up in dismounting, prevented the horse being properly cooled and could have led to a tragedy, that would have been viewed by millions. I was screaming at the TV!
I also thought that Oliver Sherwood was very controlled when they prevented him going to the horse, I think I would have told them where to go!
I thought that the Channel 4 coverage was mainly poor. I don't think many people are that interested in fashion and it's hardly Royal Ascot. The coverage of the runners before the race was minimal and the parade only part shown; I never saw Many Clouds before the race. There were too many interviews and a real sense of the commentators getting in the way of pre race preparations.
 
I also agree that the mike on the pole has had it's day, the most important job of the team is to get the horse cooled off after a grueling race at this time of year. When we were Point2pointing we put methallated spirit (sp) in the water bucket to throw over the horse in warm weather, not for it o drink obviously!
 
Perhaps we could spare a thought for Robbie McNamara.

It is very evident the vast majority of comments have come from people who have little or no understanding of the production and care of a racehorse or other equine disciplines that take the horse near to the limit.

The immediate interviews need to stop. The racecourses and the vets provide a professional service to the care of the horses, regardless of the level of racing. The vets present on course are specialists in their field.

The welfare soapbox would be far better used for the thousands of horses living in despair across the world now.
 
SpringArising said:
I'm pretty staggered by the few posters who said that the loose horses jump because 'that's what they're bred to do'.

They're running with the herd. They are fight or FLIGHT animals. Of course they're following everyone else - if they don't do that in the wild they end up in the chops of a predator!

They are high to their eyeballs on adrenaline and anxiety. Do you think they are just going to stop and have a munch on the grass while the rest of the pack gallops away?
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Conversely, if they truly loved to jump why would you need jockeys at all? You'd just point the horses at some jumps and leave them to get on with it. Even with training, I can't see this happening, can you? They might jump a couple of fences, but a whole course?
 
AdorableAlice said:
Perhaps we could spare a thought for Robbie McNamara.

It is very evident the vast majority of comments have come from people who have little or no understanding of the production and care of a racehorse or other equine disciplines that take the horse near to the limit.

The immediate interviews need to stop. The racecourses and the vets provide a professional service to the care of the horses, regardless of the level of racing. The vets present on course are specialists in their field.

The welfare soapbox would be far better used for the thousands of horses living in despair across the world now.
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It's irrelevant what vets are there. It's irrelevant how they are produced or cared for behind the scenes. They still should not be run in the National if they are known to over heat. To me, it's a little like feeding a chronic laminitic high starch food, and saying it's ok because they have the best vet in the country standing by waiting to treat it.
 
fburton said:
Conversely, if they truly loved to jump why would you need jockeys at all? You'd just point the horses at some jumps and leave them to get on with it. Even with training, I can't see this happening, can you? They might jump a couple of fences, but a whole course?
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Same with any horse sport though! I wouldn't expect my horse to do a dressage test or course of jumps without a rider, doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy it though!
 
Moomin1 said:
It's irrelevant what vets are there. It's irrelevant how they are produced or cared for behind the scenes. They still should not be run in the National if they are known to over heat. To me, it's a little like feeding a chronic laminitic high starch food, and saying it's ok because they have the best vet in the country standing by waiting to treat it.
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Do you have any experience within elite horse sport.
 
To use horses is to risk the use of them injuring or harming them .
No one has the moral high ground , for every racehorse horse killed in a high profile situation there literally hundreds of horses under going the slow descent to chronic lameness and ill health caused by bad shoeing being shod too long with out a break ,having the sets of shoes on for too long between shoeings to reduce cost .
Horses losing their respiratory health because of bad bedding and poor mucking out .
Horses being kept too fat ( and less commonly too thin ) horses kept stabled and turned out in small paddocks with little or no exercise I could go on and on and on .
I did not like the spectacle yesterday the exhausted horse the overexcited humans the interview , I don't like the hot horses in the winners enclosure the noise and excitement must be the last thing they want after they have given their all .
 
SpringArising said:
They are high to their eyeballs on adrenaline and anxiety. Do you think they are just going to stop and have a munch on the grass while the rest of the pack gallops away?
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Yup! I had one horse who did exactly that at Newcastle! Fell at the first, got up and grabbed some grass (jockey was completely useless, not for injury but for other reasons bless him!) so Caesar trotted off, stopped to grab some grass, had a wee canter, stopped for grass realised the big screen was next to him so stood munching his mouthful.of grass watching the race unfold! Ok he is probably pretty unique but if you look up Caesars Palace and look at his career wins he really was one unique little horse! And an awesome hunter!
 
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