The rise of individual turnout musings

[Birker2020]

I've had my mare in both, she is always lowest of the pecking order which means she would come in with bite marks and kicks. If she wasn't such a whimp then shared turnout was ideal but actually she never really benefited from it as would distance herself from the others.

Current yard is individual turnout but they can groom one another over the fence which seems to work well for the whimpy mare.

I also find it easier to control her grazing, keep on top of poo picking and haven't had the issues of trashed rugs.

Apart from the two instances I wrote about on the other thread I attached on the post above, I've had a nightmare with her turn out with my horse at retirement. He has been bullied continually by a newer horse in the herd who is trying to find his place. I don't doubt the horse in question is a nice horse, its just the pecking order they are trying to establish which has caused my lovely but frightened horse ti hyno iyt iver post with sheep netting on three occasions. He has been visibly distressed when the bully has come near him, as witnessed by myself on two occasions when he has cantered off or hidden behind his friend and they have spent many hours eyeing each other up from a distance. The situation is crazy..

The YO has really stepped up and been super about it all and had lots of sleepless nights as I have worrying about the situation. She took advice as she'd never come across anything like this before. So she separated the bully and a few others away from my horse and the rest of the herd for three weeks. THen they all rejoined the herd. Sadly my boy jumped back over the fence the third time to escape......... and I was prepared to pull him out of there and bring him home again which I would have done as the situation was dire even though money would have been very tight.

But then two mares arrived. Lari decided to befriend them, or they befriended him, we're not sure which way round it was. But they have protected him and stood their ground and every time I visit he is there with the two new mares, they obviously look after him and he seems really happy and content now, always grazing between them or next to them.

This is the reason why myself and so many other people prefer individual turnout for ridden horses at least.

 

[Boulty]

My preference is for a largish mostly stable herd on a large acreage where they have space to split themselves into smaller groups if they want. The places I’ve found this worked best were those where a good chunk of the horses were owned by the yard (ie a riding school or stud environment) and so there was a core group of horses who weren’t coming & going & also where some of the horses were living out year round (less gate hogging). This is the kind of environment I’ve found it easiest to keep a horse mentally happy with a good base level of physical fitness in. Had a few minor injuries to my horses in this kind of environment but no massively major ones (although yes I’ve known other horses to get more serious injuries. Horses can still manage to injure themselves on things like fencing, gates & slippery ground on individual t/o though)

Small group turnout can also work well if consideration is given to which horses you’re putting together as in a smaller group they’ve got less options to spend time with different friends/ away from each other and a smaller group generally (but not always) means they’ll be in a smaller area as well.

I don’t like individual turnout and avoiding it has actively influenced my yard choices.

Yes I get that there is the odd horse that it’s going to be the better option for (& that in a lot of cases it’s necessary for injury recovery unless you’ve got a horse who NEEDS a friend to keep them calm and stop them charging around, yep I’ve owned a few of those who were 100% better off just going back out with their herd) but I don’t feel that sad little barren fenced off squares with no shelter and no interesting features such as trees, hills & hedges should become the norm.

I DO use individual t/o for bio security & safety reasons if I take my horse away to TREC or similar but that is very much for a couple of days whilst away not a permanent living situation.

 

[Michen]

I have my horse usually on a turnout patch the size of a round pen (in Colorado). I don’t like it, it’s been hard for ME to adjust. Yet I saw absolutely no difference in my horse whatsoever from his behaviour. I did make sure he was worked daily though.

Yes of course having horses on multiple acres is lovely, and grass, but I think if you are committed to exercising them in the way that they need then it really doesn’t always make much difference. I think just being out of the stable and able to mooch around does a lot for an horses mental state. And mine is a hot buzzy horse.

What has made a difference in his behaviour is being out of work, despite now being in a much bigger turnout!

What I do hate, and have hopefully now organized a friend for him, is him being alone. I have just spent nearly $40,000 dollars saving his life from pneumonia and yes I am still happy to “risk” him out with another horse, because to me he should be allowed to be a horse first and the risk of injury second.

 

[humblepie]

Interesting re behaviours. Mine doesn’t seem to notice if no other horses in sight which sometimes happens if others riding or in because of the weather but there is another horse who will stress fence walk even with others with him/next to him. Who knows if nature or nurture

 

[toppedoff]

Our racers get turned out all together in their own miniature herds. I definitely didn't realise how normalised individual turnout is till I have been here. however I understand its some people's (as well as a friends on this forum) choice with their reasons and I wouldn't judge someone for it but it's definitely something I personally wouldn't like to do if I had a horse

 

[Goldenstar]

There’s a risk to group turnout even in well established groups with very infrequent change .
I completely understand why livery yards do this because there’s risk involved in turning horses out in groups .
However it’s extremely sad for the horses and on some yards I have seen the paddocks are ridiculously small .
Sky was on individual in past he’s very naughty in the field but as he now lives out and the herd ( 3 now ) is very static .
He does need to be kept in work or else he’s a pain with the others .
When I had my best horse I did keep her turnout alone in the run up to big competitions its was safer for her she was extremely fit and my mixed field of youngsters and hunters was not helped by the arrival of the super fit diva .
She was working twice a day and not turned for that long because she was an extremely good doer and it was very hard to keep her as slim as she needed to be .
She was sweet she used to jump into the garden and lie on the lawn when I was weeding .

You have to do your best with what you have got and I completely understand why YOers opt for the individual option .

 

[marmalade76]

It's not just that it is individual turnout, it's all these fully electric fenced tiny rectangles with no shelter or shade that you see horses imprisoned in. I would never keep a horse in one of those.

Well managed and fenced individual turnout with shelter is IMHO fine as an option. Poorly managed group turnout is a nightmare.

I was going to say the same thing. My various horses & ponies over the years have always been happier with more room with trees & bushes to browse on, scratch on and shelter under or behind whether they had company or not. Some were happy enough without constant company and one was definitely better alone (he was horse aggressive and quite happy being the only one). I have also had some that couldn't be alone. Some combinations just don't work, most will settle down in a herd given time but some will just never fit together.

 

[Griffin]

I have experienced both. I like herd turnout if they all get on but when they don't, it is awful. At a previous yard, my mare had her rug destroyed on more than one occasion while in a large herd.

Where I am now, they do small group turnout which is carefully managed to ensure that all horses are happy and it is so much better.

I wouldn't be opposed to individual turnout as long as a horse was never left on their own.

 

[stangs]

Thinking of Elf’s post, it’s interesting that racehorse trainers are willing to ‘risk’ their horses - who are worth far more monetarily than the average amateur’s horses - but that so many amateurs think it’s too big a risk to take. I suppose racehorse trainers have a more reliable sample to make judgements from, if hundreds of horses have passed through their yard over the course of time, whereas an amateur might have lost 1 out of 2 horses and therefore grossly overestimates the risk.

I can think of only 2 cases, out of the many yards I’ve known, where horses lost their lives because of being in group turnout (both cases kicked by a horse shod behind). However, I can think of at least 10 where horses had catastrophic or career-ending injuries from very mundane things. A horse who broke its leg spooking as it stepped out of its stable, for example.

We can’t protect them from everything. However, by picking the right yard with the right herd, we can at least improve their welfare by giving them the chance to make their own decisions as to whether or not they want to socialise.

 

[lme]

Ours (none of whom are shod) are turned out with other horses we own in small groups or occasionally with other people’s horses they get on with. I wouldn’t be happy with individual turnout or my horses being in unstable herds with horses constantly bring added or removed.

 

[sarcasm_queen]

We’ve got a mixture of groups and individual. Boyo has weird issues with sharing hay, so he’s out by himself. If he wasn’t such a fool, I’d be more than happy for him to be out with the herd.
Having said that, our individual fields are much nicer than your stereotypical tiny pen. Grass and space and shelter and friends right over the fence.

 

[teapot]

I think it depends on the individual horse and that's what should matter.

I've seen horses really not thrive in the idealistic everyone's big dream 24/7 big herd turnout on good daily hand poo-picked grazing, but do really do well in individual paddocks so swings and roundabouts. As @Tiddlypom says though, a lot depends on the quality of that turnout too.

I will say though in a previous job, we rarely if ever had field injuries and every horse on site was out in a herd... I have however just lost one of my own an eyelash syndicate racehorses due to a field injury, and he was out in a group of 30/40.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I do think it makes a difference the size of the field and the proximity of neighbours. Dex's field is very long and plenty wide enough, more than enough for a good long striding gallop and not having to skid to a stop or do tight turns. It also means that he has horses on either side all the way up the long sides rather than being across a walkway, so they can play bitey face, or groom or gallop and buck up and down the field if they so wish. I wouldn't have him on a postage stamp size field.I'm stood about 1/3rd of the way up his field when I took this video, it was the very tail end of their hooley session.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I can think of only 2 cases, out of the many yards I’ve known, where horses lost their lives because of being in group turnout (both cases kicked by a horse shod behind).

Sadly I have known of a number of horses, maybe on into double figures , who have been PTS after being kicked in the field . Thankfully none of them mine.

There is an art to managing herd turnout at a livery yard. Far too many yards chuck the newbie in and leave the horses to sort themselves out. That is not good.

I have my current 3 all in together, and have always taken great care over new introductions. I can run the newbie in an adjacent paddock for as long as it takes for things to calm down, maybe a week or so. It's so much easier being able to call the shots when you own or rent the land yourself than being on a livery yard with multiple owners.

I can see why many owners and yard owners prefer individual turnout.

 

[SEL]

My horses are very lucky (although they would think lucky is breaking into the rested field)

3 of them, a wide grass track around 3 acres with a bit of strip grazing am/pm (no one is thin), hedgerows, shelters, donkeys next door and a human who takes them out for hacking and parties.

Doubt they appreciate it though!

 

[motherof2beasts!]

I think the difference is when I had horses 20 plus years ago they all lived out in mixed herds but on many many acres , catching could take ages to find them. They always had plenty of grass and made lots of smaller herds within the large group, never any scuffles. Now there just isn’t the space , I had my boy move to herd turn out and it was a nightmare 8 hangry geldings standing in mud all day by the gate in winter once the grass had gone, lots of kicking /galloping about /breaking fencing etc plus my gelding became super anxious and angry and very possessive over the babies in the field. He is much better with current set up , out in pairs but others either side of fence, shade, and can put hay out when grass is sparse. I wouldn’t do herd turn out with him again.

 

[nikkimariet]

Nothing we do with them is actually natural?

 

[Barton Bounty]

I lost a horse to a broken leg from a kick when he stood up from surgery, and I HATE that my horse doesn’t have company. I basically bought my second horse so that he would

Its horrible isnt it, losing a horse but I did try BB with company but he hated it, tried him just with one other and also 5 others and he was aggressive every time, most people don’t understand how BB is with me until you see him, even other people, he shoos them away as if MINE so now he grooms over the fence with the others and they all whinny for each other too.
Im very lucky with the turnout I have , I have two massive fields that I rotate.
Even when BB retires and I get another they will not be together.

 

[expanding_horizon]

Sadly I have known of a number of horses, maybe on into double figures , who have been PTS after being kicked in the field . Thankfully none of them mine.

There is an art to managing herd turnout at a livery yard. Far too many yards chuck the newbie in and leave the horses to sort themselves out. That is not good.

I have my current 3 all in together, and have always taken great care over new introductions. I can run the newbie in an adjacent paddock for as long as it takes for things to calm down, maybe a week or so. It's so much easier being able to call the shots when you own or rent the land yourself than being on a livery yard with multiple owners.

I can see why many owners and yard owners prefer individual turnout.

I know of about ten serious kick injuries in same sex group turnout. Across 4 yards. 4 were instantly PTS. One was in vet hospital months plus surgery. Others recovered back into work in 3-6 months.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I know of about ten serious kick injuries in same sex group turnout. Across 4 yards. 4 were instantly PTS. One was in vet hospital months plus surgery. Others recovered back into work in 3-6 months.

My two mares had lived together happily for a good while until the older one kicked the homebred and put her in theatre, luckily she had not lost too much joint fluid when I found her on 3 legs and the vets got to her instantly, she was on the table within 3 hours of being found and probably 5 hours of being kicked. That morning was the last time I turned mine out together. They are all shod and big horses. They can all see one another and groom over the fencing, they share hay side by side and can stand under the same oak trees but are separated by post and rail fencing. However, they cannot kick the living daylights out of one another, we do have the odd fly hat removed and chucked over the fence though.

Group turnout is fine if they are all unshod, the herd is stable, the routine is not changed and no idiot takes buckets in the field. I had three youngsters together, all living out and feeding in a barn on a big bale and they were absolutely fine until they were broken and started working. When their routine changed they all fell out with one another despite having been together from foals. I made a point of teaching them to be independent both in paddocks and in the yard. I am a firm believer teaching them to accept being alone for periods of time, doing this helps stop stressy nappy behaviours developing and in my mind, also helps them throughout their lives.

 

[HollyWoozle]

We are lucky to have a family field and can therefore control it, but company for horses is non-negotiable for me, at least some of the time. I don’t think I could face having a horse if it couldn’t be in with at least one other for several hours a day.

Our mini with EMS goes into a track around the main field (which has four others in) for around eight hours a day but then in a paddock with one of his friends the rest of the time.

As a side note, we have always kept a mixed herd of all different breeds and sizes, mares and geldings, different ages etc. without issues but I appreciate we have been fortunate. They are fed buckets loose in the field but are fed in their pecking order and buckets put under the fence.

 

[spotty_pony2]

Mine are all turned out individually and are much more relaxed for it. I’ve also had my share of injuries and rug ripping etc so it makes sense. They can all touch each other over the fences though and can stand together under the trees. It also means I can feed them all in the field and leave them eating without worrying about them moving each other off their feeds.

 

[paddy555]

. I am a firm believer teaching them to accept being alone for periods of time, doing this helps stop stressy nappy behaviours developing and in my mind, also helps them throughout their lives.

very much this. It makes life so much easier for them and us.
My foal went into 6 days isolation in horse hospital at 10 months old. No other horses in sight, nor could he hear them. Just his nurse on her visits. He coped perfectly. He had been taught to be alone and cope.

 

[blitznbobs]

on my yard it totally depends on the horse. Luckily I have full control over who goes where… most are in pairs but I have mares that run as a herd… when Intried to combine two pairs recently it was all out war so they got swiftly separated again… I wouldn’t hesitate to turn out individually if necessary… I am struggling with one mare atm who is in foal and thin and the only thing I have to turn out with her when her companion goes for backing is a very very good doer…. One needs lots of grass the other not so much! I’m sure I will think of something…

 

[AdorableAlice]

very much this. It makes life so much easier for them and us.
My foal went into 6 days isolation in horse hospital at 10 months old. No other horses in sight, nor could he hear them. Just his nurse on her visits. He coped perfectly. He had been taught to be alone and cope.

Also gets them standing alone on trucks, for farriers etc etc.

 

[Chippers1]

Buzz is in a herd of 9, they are out 24/7 and rotate from winter fields to summer fields each year. They're a very settled herd, even to the point where I can go in with a bucket feed and Buzz can eat it happily without any of the others coming over. In my area there are only two yards that do herd turnout, luckily the other one is one I may have to move to when I move house although I am unsure about it as I know how much Buzz loves his herd!

Buzz really dislikes being stabled, he gets stressy and doesn't eat, very easily dropping condition. He is also fine away from his friends, I can take him to comps and away for days out etc and he doesn't worry too much.

I don't think it works for all horses but it's the way I choose to keep mine and I know he's much happier for it. He would hate individual turn out, he's very much a herd horse! From what i've seen, you can tell when we've had new horses join that they have been kept individually as often they don't know how to interact with the group and they end up annoying the horses, so they chase them away.

 

[ihatework]

Wouldn’t it be lovely to have ready access to this type of turnout!! This is how my babies grew up and were working horses had shoes off and holidayed!

Very lucky to have had temporary access to it. Unfortunately it will never be reality for most.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02CREcdGwFsEtVHGgmmxQUSmyKJeuoZQg9d1JMP9r18XaU5idgapiPf6AgpGkfnS71l&id=723446722

 

[Birker2020]

Wouldn’t it be lovely to have ready access to this type of turnout!! This is how my babies grew up and were working horses had shoes off and holidayed!

Very lucky to have had temporary access to it. Unfortunately it will never be reality for most.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02CREcdGwFsEtVHGgmmxQUSmyKJeuoZQg9d1JMP9r18XaU5idgapiPf6AgpGkfnS71l&id=723446722

love the way they walk over to you, how lovely x

 

[MagicMelon]

Ive always been very lucky to have kept my horses at home, where they've always lived out together (ranging from 2 - 5 of them). Im facing the prospect of perhaps needing to move, and maybe to an area where I couldnt afford a house with land so livery may be a consideration. Im not sure what Id prefer to be honest. I have 2 horses so my ideal would be a paddock of our own where they can continue to live together. I guess if I had individual turnout Id just always ensure I had a companion for my horse? I wouldnt like my horses to be kept on their own. But I also dislike large herd turnouts. I used to ride a horse at livery where all mares and all geldings were out together. It was a nightmare to get your horse out of the field and there was always injuries...

 

[nikkimariet]

I am a firm believer teaching them to accept being alone for periods of time, doing this helps stop stressy nappy behaviours developing and in my mind, also helps them throughout their lives.

100%. Rooni spent 2+ months on his own after I lost Fig for various reasons. He was actually ok and isn’t the type prone to running around, fence walking or calling thankfully.

I also used to be adamant that Fig *had* to have company. Yet when we lost Bruce, I had zero choice but to get him used to being on his own - I wasn’t going to stop riding Rooni just so he had company. It took a few weeks but he got to the point he would be out all day on his own just fine. Really taught me a lot about a side of horse management I’d never really considered to that point.

I teach and ride at enough yards I see the downside of horses completely attached to each other. It is unbearable just to watch and completely impractical. Want to ride? Have to bring them all in. Want to wash/clip one? Have to bring them all in. Taking one off the yards? All the others lose their heads. Same with turning out. Bonkers.

To add, the only time I’ve felt unsafe catching a horse was from a group too. That is something that makes me feel uneasy.