The SNP and Mrs Nicola Sturgeon

[Buddy'sMum]

It would be interesting to hear of the official response from Brussels, wouldn't it?

I suspect that Mrs S is applying a degree of spin.

Alec.

This report from the EPC suggests that there has been a significant shift in opinion re an independent Scotland remaining a member of the EU:
http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_6836_scotland_and_the_european_union.pdf

 

[dibbin]

Judgemental - have you considered shortening your username to just "mental"?

Taking your three things in turn:

1. Nicola Sturgeon is doing what she believes is in the best interests of the Scottish people. She's the First Minister, that's her job. As others have said (repeatedly) a lot of people who voted "No" in the Scottish referendum did so because the campaign had quite a strong focus on remaining in the EU. Following the EU referendum, the people of Scotland, who voted fairly categorically to remain, are being dragged out of the EU by English and Welsh voters. So the reason that a lot of people had for remaining in the UK has gone. I feel like that's a fundamental political shift that merits revisiting the question of Scottish independence - particularly if the powers-that-be in Brussels won't consider Scotland's EU membership if they remain part of the UK when it leaves.

2. Any evidence to back that up? I have no idea how you draw that conclusion from the Reuters quotes you've shared, you seem to be reading more between the lines than is on them.

3. Agreed. Crack on.

 

[Judgemental]

Judgemental - have you considered shortening your username to just "mental"?

Taking your three things in turn:

1. Nicola Sturgeon is doing what she believes is in the best interests of the Scottish people. She's the First Minister, that's her job. As others have said (repeatedly) a lot of people who voted "No" in the Scottish referendum did so because the campaign had quite a strong focus on remaining in the EU. Following the EU referendum, the people of Scotland, who voted fairly categorically to remain, are being dragged out of the EU by English and Welsh voters. So the reason that a lot of people had for remaining in the UK has gone. I feel like that's a fundamental political shift that merits revisiting the question of Scottish independence - particularly if the powers-that-be in Brussels won't consider Scotland's EU membership if they remain part of the UK when it leaves.

2. Any evidence to back that up? I have no idea how you draw that conclusion from the Reuters quotes you've shared, you seem to be reading more between the lines than is on them.

3. Agreed. Crack on.

The first point is that on this forum, particularly we never insult one another, it is considered very bad manners.

You are in Scotland, so I suppose we have to make allowances.

As I have said twice, the reason that I am for one, running with this subject is because of Sturgeon's blatant disregard for an agreement to stand aside from English votes for English laws, in particular the Hunting Act 2004.

1. The proposed changes under the Statutory Instrument, one of my passions, were to mirror exactly the Act in Scotland, therefore any changes in England and Wales made no difference whatsoever to Scotland.

2. David Cameron gave an undertaking to his supporters that he would amend the act accordingly. But the wee lass from Sky thought she would be clever and tell the SNP in the H of C how to vote, so the debate had to be pulled.

3. Where I come from in the West Country, the big herds of Red Deer are a major problem an it requires a full pack of hounds to effectively move them on. Off the small fields of grazing that are so important to not only all the livestock farmers but my own land for my horses etc. Notwithstanding all the hayledge that is made. Along with timber that damage such as Larch Pole Pine, much favored in Scotland.

4. The proposed changes would have facilitated the necessary arrangements.

5. Also by way of example, in the City if you Welch on an agreement, you are finished, persona non-grata. Your name is not taken on the commodity, stock and shipping exchanges etc. If the so called first minister cannot honor her agreement and her clear statement before the general election and during the campaign, the SNP would not become involved in any debate in the H of C concerning the 2004 Hunting Act. Then she is not a fit and proper person to occupy the position.

If she is capable of welching on a simple agreement not to participate in a debate, I dread to think what she might do in the unlikely event she took control of Scotland and away from the UK. I have the greatest doubts about her integrity.

 

[Alec Swan]

This report from the EPC suggests that there has been a significant shift in opinion re an independent Scotland remaining a member of the EU:
http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_6836_scotland_and_the_european_union.pdf

I'm sorry Buddy'sMum but the report written by a certain Mr Avery, is so biased and frankly, ridiculous, as to be barely worth consideration. Whether we'd stay or leave, it's riddled with such nonsense and party support as to make for little sense. Were it of value, and despite my stance, I'd give it serious consideration, but as it isn't I shan't.

The EPC wouldn't wish to influence public feeling? An independent review? Without bias? Common now, it's nonsense from a second rate journalist.

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

The first point is that on this forum, particularly we never insult one another, it is considered very bad manners.

You are in Scotland, so I suppose we have to make allowances.

……..

3. Where I come from in the West Country, the big herds of Red Deer are a major problem …….. .

Rest assured of one thing; Sturgeon cares even less for the Red Deer of the West Country than she does for the bi-legged inhabitants, many of whom care for the Deer.

Sturgeon will, given the opportunity, trample all and any who stand in her way. My history isn't up to much, I'll accept, but has Scotland ever had a queen?

Alec.

 

[Snuffles]

The report states a "Prosperous Scotland" how would that equate without Englands cash ?

 

[Fidgety]

I'm sorry Buddy'sMum but the report written by a certain Mr Avery, is so biased and frankly, ridiculous, as to be barely worth consideration. Whether we'd stay or leave, it's riddled with such nonsense and party support as to make for little sense. Were it of value, and despite my stance, I'd give it serious consideration, but as it isn't I shan't.

The EPC wouldn't wish to influence public feeling? An independent review? Without bias? Common now, it's nonsense from a second rate journalist.

Alec.

It's also not an official report . At the bottom it states

'Graham Avery is Senior Adviser at the European Policy Centre, Brussels, and Senior Member of St. Antony's
College, Oxford University. In this briefing he expresses his personal views.'

 

[Buddy'sMum]

The first point is that on this forum, particularly we never insult one another, it is considered very bad manners.

You are in Scotland, so I suppose we have to make allowances.

Oh, the irony!

 

[Buddy'sMum]

It's also not an official report . At the bottom it states

'Graham Avery is Senior Adviser at the European Policy Centre, Brussels, and Senior Member of St. Antony's
College, Oxford University. In this briefing he expresses his personal views.'

Yes, actually I did see that when I read the report

And official or not, it's written by a senior adviser at the EPC and published by the EPC. Which in itself is interesting.

 

[Lizzie66]

And if you had even a remote understanding of how the Scottish Parliament works you would know that it can only legislate on certain areas, with many issues reserved for Westminster. You know, a Westminster government we didn't vote for.

I have no issue with EVEL, as long as the issues voted on are ones which truly affect England only. But I very much doubt that Mr Bercow has the ability to make that determination. So no, it's not levelling the playing field at all.

The Scottish people voted on whether they wanted to remain as part of the UK or become fully independent. The voted to remain. They therefore do have the government they voted for, the one voted for by the British people. The UK is a democracy that is ruled on a first past the post basis and therefore there are just as many English people that equally feel that they do not have the government they voted for.

The people of England are the only people that have nothing devolved to them. Now I do not want a fully devolved English parliament as I feel it would be an unnecessary additional burden. I do feel that those MPs that sit in constituencies that will not be covered by the law should refrain from voting.

SNP prior to the last election said that they would voluntarily abide by this and then promptly changed their minds when it came to hunting with hounds. This is fully devolved to the Scottish Parliament and therefore they should have abstained.

 

[Lizzie66]

But it's not GDP that pays the bills, it's tax revenues. What taxes does Scotland raise compared to its spending? And if Scotland is self sufficient why does the Barnett formula give you a higher amount per head of public spending than more deprived areas in other parts of the Union?

Scotland currently runs a £15 billion deficit between public spending and taxes raised. Despite this Scotland would still be classed as a net contributor to the EU based on its GDP and if accepted into the EU in its own right then it would have to contribute approx. £1.5 billion. So if Scotland chooses to leave the UK and join the EU it would lose automatic free access to the UK market (70% of its exports) and it would have to increase revenues from improved GDP or taxation by £16.5 billion just to maintain its current level of public services.

If it increased taxation it is likely that businesses would be pushed south over the border and if it didn't then it would find itself in an EU enforced austerity programme far harsher than anything that is currently imposed by the UK government.

I can vaguely understand wanting to be independent from the UK, ie similar to those of the UK wanting to leave the EU. What I can't understand is that they would then want to jump back into having probably less autonomy than it does now with its separate parliament.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

2. David Cameron gave an undertaking to his supporters that he would amend the act accordingly. But the wee lass from Sky thought she would be clever and tell the SNP in the H of C how to vote, so the debate had to be pulled.

Irvine, Ayrshire, actually Judgemental, but don't concern yourself with facts.

The debate didn't have to be pulled, Cameron pulled it because he was facing certain defeat. Why don't you direct some of your ire at the Toriy and Labour MPs who were planning to vote against the amendment?

 

[ester]

Aw I liked the idea of her having dropped out the sky!

 

[Goldenstar]

Rest assured of one thing; Sturgeon cares even less for the Red Deer of the West Country than she does for the bi-legged inhabitants, many of whom care for the Deer.

Sturgeon will, given the opportunity, trample all and any who stand in her way. My history isn't up to much, I'll accept, but has Scotland ever had a queen?

Alec.

Err yes Scotland had a famous queen she was called ( there's a clue coming ) Mary Queen of Scots .
She had bad taste in men and a taste for meddling in English affairs and a famous English queen had her head cut off .
Not sure what history can teach us from this story .

 

[Countryman]

Sturgeon will, given the opportunity, trample all and any who stand in her way. My history isn't up to much, I'll accept, but has Scotland ever had a queen?

Alec.

Scotland has a Queen now - our current monarch!

 

[Goldenstar]

Scotland has a Queen now - our current monarch!

That's is a very good point .

 

[Alec Swan]

Well I did say that my history wasn't up to much, which is odd, considering that I'm old enough to remember a good bit of it!

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

That's is a very good point .

Indeed it is. Do you suppose that HM will have to apply for a visa to visit Balmoral or Charles the Castle of May?

Alec.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Err yes Scotland had a famous queen she was called ( there's a clue coming ) Mary Queen of Scots .
She had bad taste in men and a taste for meddling in English affairs and a famous English queen had her head cut off .
Not sure what history can teach us from this story .

Aw, c'mon, Goldenstar, be nice. She had a hard life. Many considered her to be the rightful heir to the English throne, and Elizabeth illegitimate, so I guess she believed she had a right to meddle.

We also had Queens Margaret, Mary II and Anne.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Aw I liked the idea of her having dropped out the sky!

I'm starting to warm to her. Judgemental is helping quite a bit.

 

[popsdosh]

This report from the EPC suggests that there has been a significant shift in opinion re an independent Scotland remaining a member of the EU:
http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_6836_scotland_and_the_european_union.pdf

Read the bottom paragraph it is a briefing document to the EPC from one person and clearly has the warning expressing their own views not those of any EU institution then! Clutching at straws maybe.

 

[Judgemental]

Indeed it is. Do you suppose that HM will have to apply for a visa to visit Balmoral or Charles the Castle of May?

Alec.

Chuckle.

Have seen a number of reports originating from Sturgeon this evening as a result of her interview on the Andrew Marr show this morning. I am sure you can pick them up, where she says "she is in a very very strong position as to the time of triggering Article 50", following Mrs May's visit to Bute House.

I bet Mrs May did not say anything or imply anything that could possible leave Sturgeon with that impression.

Even if Mrs May did, she can always change her mind.

It all points to somebody with a massive ego and suffering from megalomania. Hitler suffered from the disorder.

In other words I am sure Whitehall have weighted up Sturgeon. She believes she has some sort of power, when in reality she is no more than a puppet on a string.

 

[ester]

It all points to somebody with a massive ego and suffering from megalomania. Hitler suffered from the disorder.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Read the bottom paragraph it is a briefing document to the EPC from one person and clearly has the warning expressing their own views not those of any EU institution then! Clutching at straws maybe.

Well I never!

I've already responded to this, popsdosh

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Chuckle.

Have seen a number of reports originating from Sturgeon this evening as a result of her interview on the Andrew Marr show this morning. I am sure you can pick them up, where she says "she is in a very very strong position as to the time of triggering Article 50", following Mrs May's visit to Bute House.

I bet Mrs May did not say anything or imply anything that could possible leave Sturgeon with that impression.

Oh yes she did
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-edinburgh-to-tell-scots-that-she-believes-w/

Even if Mrs May did, she can always change her mind.

WHAT?!?! You mean....welch?

 

[Goldenstar]

Aw, c'mon, Goldenstar, be nice. She had a hard life. Many considered her to be the rightful heir to the English throne, and Elizabeth illegitimate, so I guess she believed she had a right to meddle.

We also had Queens Margaret, Mary II and Anne.

Be nice ?
Only stating facts .

 

[dibbin]

The first point is that on this forum, particularly we never insult one another, it is considered very bad manners.

You are in Scotland, so I suppose we have to make allowances.

*snort* I take it back - Judgemental actually suits you just fine. Or does that mean I'm welching on my previous comment?

And Nicola's from Irvine, not Skye. Or even Sky. Not that you'd be one to let the facts get in the way.

At this point I'm convinced Judgemental's actually Theresa May.

 

[Judgemental]

*snort* I take it back - Judgemental actually suits you just fine. Or does that mean I'm welching on my previous comment?

And Nicola's from Irvine, not Skye. Or even Sky. Not that you'd be one to let the facts get in the way.

At this point I'm convinced Judgemental's actually Theresa May.

Indeed Skye and my my, Irvine is an ancient settlement, in medieval times a royal burgh, and now a new town on the coast of the Firth of Clyde in North Ayrshire, Scotland.

Well so it's Nicola then and your location is Ayrshire.

Say no more, conclusion drawn, message received. They all lived happily ever after.

Firth of Clyde too, the home of HMNB Faslane, it's all falling into place

Were I to be TM, I would consider it a great honor.

 

[Lizzie66]

Oh yes she did
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-edinburgh-to-tell-scots-that-she-believes-w/
WHAT?!?! You mean....welch?

What she actually said is ‘I’ve already said I won’t be triggering Article 50 until I think we have a United Kingdom approach and objectives for the negotiations. I think it’s important we establish that before we trigger Article 50’.

There is nothing in this that says Scotland has to agree (although the papers appear to be trying to re-interpret her words), just that Theresa May has to believe that the approach & objectives are clearly defined.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

What she actually said is ‘I’ve already said I won’t be triggering Article 50 until I think we have a United Kingdom approach and objectives for the negotiations. I think it’s important we establish that before we trigger Article 50’.

There is nothing in this that says Scotland has to agree (although the papers appear to be trying to re-interpret her words), just that Theresa May has to believe that the approach & objectives are clearly defined.

She also said "I believe with all my heart in the United Kingdom – the precious bond between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. This visit to Scotland is my first as Prime Minister and I’m coming here to show my commitment to preserving this special union that has endured for centuries.”

Do you really think that she would be reckless enough to trigger Article 50 without the approach and objectives being endorsed by Scotland, NI and Wales?