The turnout situation with Dani?

[brighteyes]

The huge difference is that you are treating each horse as an individual and meeting their specific needs.

Thank you - that acknowledgement helps although I still feel I fall far short of perfect. The 'comprehensively bust yourself and of course I'll deal with it' inner fight is real, though. Keeping them separated but within 'touching nicely' distance compromise is the best I can do!
Interestingly my TB, who I know was turned out in company, sports the same, tennis-ball sized lump in a very similar spot to the one I saw delivered to ponio, by nutty mare when I (wrongly) thought living almost together for 12 years would likely be bondship. He also has a flat haematoma or seratoma, I'm not sure. on his thigh side which was presumably from the same squabble. Nah, my nerves won't stand turning them out together together. I have had to repair too many kick injuries when I have tried.

 

[Wishfilly]

It's not abuse at all, there are far far worse things that some horses have to endure.

Actually, were she in the UK, I think it would come close to meeting the legal definition of abuse. According to the five freedoms, animals should have the freedom to express normal behaviour.

However, in reality, this freedom is not applied to pet or working animals.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Mine had put themselves in this morning when I looked on the camera, and had been in for some time as their rugs were dry. And for my mare, that meant she had nothing to eat as she had a muzzle on and couldn't get the scraps on the floor through the hole. She isn't habituated to being in, either, for the 7 years before she came to me last year, she lived out in a similar area.

It's interesting watching horses when they have a choice. Some often choose to be in.

There's no one size fits all rule here.
.

The key word here is CHOICE. Yours made a choice to be in, they have free will.

 

[JoannaC]

I think it does make a difference if they are in a lot of varied work and I have to say i've never heard of this person until today but it sounds like her horses aren't just left standing in a stable all day but have plenty of things going on. I am very lucky that I have my horses at home and my set up is such that they can choose where they go. They do spend a lot of time standing in the middle of the barn and also in their stables, sometimes they will both be in the same stable but mostly they will each be stood in a stable looking out. I think, judging by the amount of poo, they spend just as much time in as they would if shut in. The differences being it's not all in one go. They spend the day and presumably the night wandering in and out. Most people don't work their horses very hard anymore even if they think they do and therefore it is important that they get a lot of turnout time. Whilst it would be preferable for competition horses to have some turnout each day I don't think it's a welfare issue when they are in hard work and, whilst they are alone in the stable, they will be surrounded by other horses so they are not truly without company. It's tricky to get things right but I think horse ownership is getting harder with hacking out becoming less and less safe and land being turned into housing estates etc. I do wonder what the future holds for horses.

 

[SO1]

Agree it is about choice and one thing I have learnt during the lockdown is that for most people who live on their own it is not a lot of fun spending the whole day on your own indoors without any company for months on end. However some people love being able to wfh and having the excuse not to socialise. It does depend on the individual.

Also the celebrity riders should be a role model as many young people or people who are perhaps new to horses may look at what they do and try and imitate it without understanding the differences between a competition yard where there are staff around all day and the horses get a lot of attention and exercise and the horses go off site to competitions regularly so they have a lot stimulation and a leisure yard where the owner is at work all day and there may not be much stimulation during the day if a horse is not going in the field.

I think competition horses should get turnout and that these fancy yards should be able to invest in solutions that enable the horses to go out in a less risky way. It is probably that they do not wish to spend money on putting in place the sort of turnout that would reduce the risks, a fit competition horse should be able to go out into a flat paddock on good ground with a quiet companion and not injure itself if it has a canter around. Maintaining this sort of ground is hard work and costly but not impossible but it does not have to be a huge area either. The mud paddock is a very poor example of turnout and it is like saying a horse stood in its stable is left in 24/7 in a mucky bed with no exercise you are comparing the worst case scenarios of turnout.

The problem is by normalising these no turnout situations at competition yards it encourages leisure riders with very different set ups and routines to think no turnout is ok. The leisure rider may not be able to ride every day or spend a lot of time with their horse, they may not be able to check the horse has enough hay and water during the day and skip it out regularly if it has no turnout as they are at work all day. They may not have access to an indoor school, undercover walker, etc so if the weather is awful then they are having to exercise a horse who may be fresh due to no turnout in the pouring rain or windy weather or the horse gets no exercise.

I livery on a rehab yard which takes in horses that need to be on box rest and no turnout whilst being rehabbed for an injury and these horses get skipped out every few hours, groomed, regularly checked to make sure they have enough hay and there is enough going on during the day for them to watch and get some stimulation. A owner who is at work all day just can't do all that checking and stimulation if their is horse on no turnout.

The key word here is CHOICE. Yours made a choice to be in, they have free will.

 

[windand rain]

Having invested a lot and I mean a lot of money in providing choice and a laminitis safe environment for the ponies (all mountain and moorland ponies) by putting in miles of fencing and shelters I can assure you they only choose to go in the shelter when they shouldn't ie in thunderstorms. I have since move and rely on natural shelter now as the expense wasn't worth the use. In ten years I only saw the shelters used a handful of times. Yes I know many like them and if that was the case I would buy again but it isnt. I would love to invest in big trees but it is not my land and full grown native trees are very expensive

 

[milliepops]

I think it it can vary a lot. my youngsters have barely moved from their shelter today They use it extensively all year round, i never see them napping outside but they both often come inside for a kip.

One of my retirees commandeers the shelter in their field so the others don't get a look in but they all hang around it.

My welsh is happy to be stabled but won't use a shelter.. the TB puts himself away when there is one available.

 

[ycbm]

The key word here is CHOICE. Yours made a choice to be in, they have free will.

Actually the point I was making was that they hardly ever chose to be out 24/7, which is being held up by some people as the Holy Grail of horse welfare.
.

 

[Tarragon]

With the choice of access to their stables if they want, my ponies always choose to stand with their backs to the wall or under a tree in bad weather.
I do think that if they had access to a large open fronted barn, instead of the two individual stables they do have, they might choose to come in more often to get out of the flies in the summer, if we were plagued by them.

 

[YorksG]

We have used a field shelter for our two this winter, there have been days when they have declined to leave the shelter, other days when they have not moved off the hard standing, other days they've been out to the edges of their space. It has been interesting to watch, given that for the last 25 years we've brought in over night in winter.

 

[TPO]

As someone else posted far more eloquently than me it's not in 24/7 or out knee deep in mud with no forage or shelter.

Horses do require shelter of some description be it natural or manmade. When that cant be fully offered then that's why there are so many rug options available and why we should arrange for forage when grass isnt available.

To have a horse out 24/7 in unsuitable ground, no shelter and no forage is also a breach of welfare.

 

[laura_nash]

Mine rarely use their shelter in winter even when in that field, they much prefer a hedge or tree. They love it in summer though, my old cob was quite vocal about being in the field that doesn't have a shelter in the sun last week - I had to move them and he was straight into the shelter.

I don't think many people are actually holding up 24/7 turnout, particularly without a shelter and/or surfaced area, as a holy grail? It is what I do mostly but that has a lot to do with his dust allergies and my financial limitations - I would love a surfaced track and large free access barn.

I think the "turnout" terminology is perhaps unhelpful as to most that means "put out in a grass field". What I think is important is free movement and socialising, however that is achieved and recognising some horses have limitations on the second due to their temperament or upbringing.

I've no idea who Dani is and can believe that her horses welfare may be ok if they are in hard work and have plenty of stimulation, things like stable size and layout make a big difference too IMO.

I think her response online shown earlier was totally irresponsible though, to respond to someone with a young horse, no details if its even started under saddle, with "I don't turn out" without any qualification of that beggars belief really.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Actually the point I was making was that they hardly ever chose to be out 24/7, which is being held up by some people as the Holy Grail of horse welfare.
.

I see what you are saying...BUT I will bet they wouldn't choose to be in 24/7 either AND you have a large barn set up where they have horse company and do horsing.
That is different to stabling....for the vast majority of the day.

 

[Dexter]

I see what you are saying...BUT I will bet they wouldn't choose to be in 24/7 either AND you have a large barn set up where they have horse company and do horsing.
That is different to stabling....for the vast majority of the day.

I suspect that has something to do with it. My stables with doors pinned open just don't get used. They do all congregate under the trees together though which is the closest thing I have to a barn.

 

[LEC]

I really don't get the fuss on this. Its very common.
More sport horses do get injured in the field so she has point. There is a myriad of reasons continental riders have these beliefs. Its just very english not to.

Nobody seems to moan about the uk army horses based in london?

I just find the levels of hypocrisy pretty high, lots of people on here will keep horses in circumstances which are less than perfect but justify it to themselves as fits their budget or need. Just as i see people justify their fat horses etc.

Many people keep their horses on ‘turnout’ and i use the word loosely which is the size of a stable on hardstanding in winter but its outdoors so that makes it fine.

Many ways to skin a cat and historically turnout for horses is a relatively new thing. Horses seem to have survived just like house cats survive, guinea pigs etc. None of them are mean’t to live like they do.

 

[Winters100]

Horses seem to have survived just like house cats survive, guinea pigs etc. None of them are mean’t to live like they do.

Of course it is a personal thing, but that they simply survive is not the target that I set myself for the care of my animals.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I read an article once that said if you substitute the word "stable" with "cage" it would make people think twice. The word "stable" has connotations of being a lovely place to be, as in warm, dry and filled with soft bedding, whereas "cage" implies a prison, but in both cases it is a space that contains an animal. There is a media campaign at the moment on Facebook to do with not keeping rabbits in those small hutches that you get from places like Pets-R-Us, as it is cruel, but the space provided by a hutch is 2 to 3 times more in proportion to the rabbit, that a standard stable is to a horse. I know it makes it very emotive but I don't think that it changes the facts.
I also think that it is wrong to assume that turn-out is all about the grazing, I think it is more to do with being able to socialise. So, perhaps, a turn out into a safe all weather area where the horse can roll and have a mooch about with a friend, is more beneficial to that horse than being out 24/7 in a small field on their own.
Whatever, I agree with all who say that it is wrong to not allow a horse time to be a horse among their own kind.
I wish I was better at writing!
(Edited as I think I got stable and cage the wrong way round! )

I’m not disagreeing with value of turnout or companionship (mine are in field 16 / 24. But my horse LOVES to come in and sleep in his deep bed and have Haylage on tap too. After 8 hours (less most days as ridden too) he’s then very happy to go back out

 

[scats]

I think that once you are subjecting a horse to no turnout at all because of concerns over injury that might affect your plans to compete it, it’s no longer a horse to you, more a tool.
I strongly believe that even top competition horses should be given some opportunity to engage in their natural behaviours, even if for just a couple of hours a day in an individual paddock with a pal nearby. Carl Hester manages to do it and keep his horses fit and well and at the top of their game.

 

[stormox]

Where I am, poor land thats wet and boggy, there is no turnout in the winter at any yard. But most allow turnout in the day when the ground gets harder.

 

[Asha]

I think it’s relatively simple. We have a duty of care for the animals under our control . To me that duty of care extends to providing a quality of life that allows each animal to express its natural behaviour. Stabling a horse even with all the work/ treadmill etc etc does not in anyway provide that . Dani and co can try and convince themselves and others that it’s fine , but it’s just pure ignorance . The selfishness of the human race never fails to surprise me .

 

[YorksG]

I don't know what their arrangements are now, but the Witakers used to turn out in the "off season " on fairly steeply sloped land. That included Ryan's son, on his holidays.

 

[Winters100]

I’m not disagreeing with value of turnout or companionship (mine are in field 16 / 24. But my horse LOVES to come in and sleep in his deep bed and have Haylage on tap too. After 8 hours (less most days as ridden too) he’s then very happy to go back out

I am absolutely not saying that you are doing anything wrong, and I have mine on a similar regime, but I think we have to be careful when we think about what our horses like and how they feel about aspects of their care. Mine are always keen to come in, but I don't think it is because they love to sleep in their boxes, rather just because they want to eat. I am sure that if I fed them outside in a different paddock for a week then they would be eager to go there. Likewise my older mare always calls to me when she sees me, and I find it a bit ridiculous when people say 'oh, look how she loves you'. Would be lovely if it were true, but the reality is that she is a poor doer who is fed 5 times a day, so she is simply anticipating a feed.

 

[Cloball]

I find the field injuries arguement a bit reductive.

Human athletes get injured all the time and they don't stay in cages when they're not training. It would be terrible for their muscle, joints, respiratory system and their mental health. Sport psychology is very important in performance. I appreciate professional athletes will have a different more controlled life to you and I but they still have family and friends and down time. Also they chose their own path. A season ending injury or career ending injury is arguably more devastating when you only have your own body and not a string of horses.


No one suggests footballers worth millions of pounds should live in padded cells.

Is it any wonder we have so many broken horses.

 

[Palindrome]

I really don't get the fuss on this. Its very common.
More sport horses do get injured in the field so she has point. There is a myriad of reasons continental riders have these beliefs. Its just very english not to.

Nobody seems to moan about the uk army horses based in london?

I just find the levels of hypocrisy pretty high, lots of people on here will keep horses in circumstances which are less than perfect but justify it to themselves as fits their budget or need. Just as i see people justify their fat horses etc.

Many people keep their horses on ‘turnout’ and i use the word loosely which is the size of a stable on hardstanding in winter but its outdoors so that makes it fine.

Many ways to skin a cat and historically turnout for horses is a relatively new thing. Horses seem to have survived just like house cats survive, guinea pigs etc. None of them are mean’t to live like they do.

Where did you get that turnout is a new thing?
Do you think that horses kept on farms were fed hay all year round?

Also, it is a bit irritating to say "on the continent they do this and that" when in fact the continent contains several different countries, it usually comes with false information too. What would you think if I said "on the Northern islands, they do this and that" to describe the UK, the Republic of Ireland and Iceland?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

As someone on the continent most riders have these beliefs because...

They're idiots. Really, they don't know better and don't want to. They just think it's ok. Or they don't think about it at all. Some just say "it is the way it is"

They are afraid that their horse will get hurt. Even though the number of soft tissue injuries I've seen at these "no turnout" yards are quite high.

They don't want to "ruin" their land. They want it to look good.

They want their horse to have energy. "He'll be too tired if he's out" to literally quote a jumping rider.

Horses are somewhat disposable and they don't care to ride them past their mid to late teens anyway. So they last while they last to serve whatever purpose. Some think it's an inconvenience to turnout.

They don't have enough land.

These are just what I've personally encountered and the list goes on. I'm sure some people in the UK use some of the reasons above too.

A horse should he allowed turnout. Ideally a 24/7 with a shelter option, for mine. I'm ok with a in during the day and out night or vice versa. When mine is in he has a small paddock/hard standing attached to his stable. Which is better than nothing. He can at least get fresh air, not stand in his own waste, see what's going on, and move a bit. Paddock boxes are becoming a bit more popular here. When I first came to this yard a few years ago, no one wanted one. Now they're more sought after.

A lot of these riders aroind here are leisure riders and are realizing they can't handle their horses that are kept in 24/7 and pulled out of the box for 30 to 60 min a few days a week. The horses have too much energy, attitude, stiffness, and so on. Who would've thought ?‍

 

[laura_nash]

I really don't get the fuss on this. Its very common.

[..] historically turnout for horses is a relatively new thing. Horses seem to have survived [..].

I think these have to be the two stupidest reasons to defend anything. I'm not saying the fuss over Dani's stable management is right, but it should be defended on its own merits.

Lots of things are common that aren't right, especially if we are looking around the world rather than just the UK (misogyny, racism, corruption etc etc).

Even if we accept that turnout is a new thing (which I absolutely don't) there are lots of new things in horse keeping as we learn and improve. When I started riding I was told to not allow hot horses to drink and not cool them down too quickly, to not allow horses with colic to roll, to withhold all feed/forage for an hour before any exercise, to oil hooves every day, to feed garlic every day, to worm every 4 weeks in summer etc etc.

As someone else said surviving is hardly a high standard to aim for. Battery hens survive.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

On the COTH thread on this topic, it has been stated a few times that people don't turn out their horses in Europe. I'm sure I read on here that possibly Denmark, Sweden and Switzerland IIRC, have rules about keeping horses that include a minimum turnout requirement.

Can anyone clarify that?
Any links to their laws?

If I did remember correctly, do you think that other European countries will follow suit?

 

[YorksG]

My grandfather had a Welsh cob that he delivered green groceries with, pre WW2, the pony was kept at a livery yard mid week, then taken home at the weekend to a local farm for turn out.
We live on a three acre holding, which was to provide ground for the donkey or pony which was used to transport the worsted produced by the family who lived here when the house was built in 1846

 

[DabDab]

On the COTH thread on this topic, it has been stated a few times that people don't turn out their horses in Europe. I'm sure I read on here that possibly Denmark, Sweden and Switzerland IIRC, have rules about keeping horses that include a minimum turnout requirement.

Can anyone clarify that?
Any links to their laws?

If I did remember correctly, do you think that other European countries will follow suit?

Yep they do. More to do with the emphasis on 'group' rather than 'turnout' though. In Switzerland now there are lots of group housing (barns with connecting tracks seems most preferred) set-ups. Livery is typically quite expensive in Switzerland, so from what I can tell the provision on livery yards over there flexes to the market better, because it is easier to recoup the costs of upgrades. I have a couple of family members with horses over there and neither of their horses have turnout in a field from December through to March-April, but they are in those group barn type situations with 4-10 other horses. Seems to work quite well.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I am absolutely not saying that you are doing anything wrong, and I have mine on a similar regime, but I think we have to be careful when we think about what our horses like and how they feel about aspects of their care. Mine are always keen to come in, but I don't think it is because they love to sleep in their boxes, rather just because they want to eat. I am sure that if I fed them outside in a different paddock for a week then they would be eager to go there. Likewise my older mare always calls to me when she sees me, and I find it a bit ridiculous when people say 'oh, look how she loves you'. Would be lovely if it were true, but the reality is that she is a poor doer who is fed 5 times a day, so she is simply anticipating a feed.

I think my horse mainly comes in for a deep sleep in his stable! It’s sheltered and deeply bedded!

I’m not allowed to bed his field shelter. And I’ve never seen him go inside it!