The turnout situation with Dani?

[NR88]

I agree with it but I don’t think anyone here is in favour of no/limited turnout anyway

On the other thread someone said they would keep a horse somewhere that offered no turnout if it was the only way that they could have a horse.

I think it is that sort of attitude that is being referred to. That ultimately some people put their wants first and do what suits them instead of doing what is best for the horse(s) and putting their needs first.

 

[ycbm]

On the other thread someone said they would keep a horse somewhere that offered no turnout if it was the only way that they could have a horse.

I think it is that sort of attitude that is being referred to. That ultimately some people put their wants first and do what suits them instead of doing what is best for the horse(s) and putting their needs first.

Yes that was me. Because in my 50+ years of direct horse experience I have seen many, many yards full of horses which appear to be perfectly content and not at all shut down in yards which had no turnout.

And I would not, therefore, deny myself what is a life altering fix of horse ownership, if there was no turnout available anywhere in the world where I could live, though I would move if I could to try and provide it.
.

 

[Kat]

I do wonder sometimes how many horse owners are actually interested in their horses natural behaviour eg take pleasure from watching them graze, herd dynamics and just seeing. Many horse owners seem to just want to ride, compete or own them and oblivious to the little nuances of behaviour. That not a critism but an observation made from some of the replies I have read. I am a horse watcher. My working busy friends either dont understand or are mildly envious of the time I can do it. I guess there are as many angles to come to horse welfare as there are horses in the world. I know my feelings on it but often others dont think my idea of welfare is their's or they turn half a blind eye to what is ideal for that horse but doesn't quite fit their needs

I love watching the interaction between our herds, I wish I could do it more often. I especially love the "rules" the girls have about who gets the sheltered spots and who comes in first etc. They are so well organised!

 

[stormox]

No one here thinks horses should be in a stable ALL the time. But unfortunately in many places grazing land is at a premium, and in many places getting scarcer. The climate seems to be getting wetter, and that is making a lot of land impossible to use in winter.
People who have their own land for horses are much rarer now than back in the 60s and 70s -then nearly all the local riders kept their horses on their farm or in a neighbours field.
Nobody cared if they had no access to a school. As long as you had a field, a horse, roads and bridlepaths to ride on and local gymkhanas and hunt meets within hacking distance that was all you wanted.
Nowadays horses seem to be kept in a much more concentrated way in big livery yards and show centres, people 'need' an indoor school or at the very least an outdoor one, which makes turnout much more difficult.

 

[paddi22]

does the livery industry just need to accept that we have long wet winters now and that investment in all-weather surfaces is going to be a necessity going forward? I don't think shrugging and saying 'but we don't have hundreds of acres of well-drained land' is a good enough answer.

A friend had her horse on livery in a city in Germany with really limited space and they have an amazing system that kind of funnels the horses around the land on a track system with gates that are timed to let them into lounging and play areas, and then move them on to hay areas and small grazing areas at different parts in the track. it's so clever and allows the horses to be out all day moving around a system that is mud free.

As a business owner I understand that's a big investment money wise and livery rates would have to rise to cover the costs and it's an expensive enough hobby as it is. but is this something that will have to come in down the line as awareness of welfare increases?

 

[windand rain]

does the livery industry just need to accept that we have long wet winters now and that investment in all-weather surfaces is going to be a necessity going forward? I don't think shrugging and saying 'but we don't have hundreds of acres of well-drained land' is a good enough answer.

A friend had her horse on livery in a city in Germany with really limited space and they have an amazing system that kind of funnels the horses around the land on a track system with gates that are timed to let them into lounging and play areas, and then move them on to hay areas and small grazing areas at different parts in the track. it's so clever and allows the horses to be out all day moving around a system that is mud free.

As a business owner I understand that's a big investment money wise and livery rates would have to rise to cover the costs and it's an expensive enough hobby as it is. but is this something that will have to come in down the line as awareness of welfare increases?

Especially in areas where the rainfall is very high and it can be anticipated that the ground will not cope with the increased rainfall.

 

[sportsmansB]

I have literally just bought a house for my horse.
He is a 16yo competition horse who has lived on professional yards all his life. He is entirely institutionalised from his previous home, and will not stay out in a paddock for longer than 2-3 hours at a time, even with small ponies for company. He chases and bullies full size horses. Once he has decided he has had enough, he gallops around whinnying at the top of his voice, and gets himself into a complete state. He will not stop galloping until someone brings him in. As a result he currently gets a few hours in a smallish paddock with hay and the ponies next door. This gets us about 3-4 hours max, only between meal times as when he thinks everyone else is getting lunch he starts the galloping. Maybe I should let him continue to gallop? Like the whole baby crying themselves to sleep thing? But people think thats cruelty too...
I should add that all the event horses at the yard get turned out, most days, in reasonable sized paddocks (maybe 20x60 is the smallest) unless its really pouring with rain. They also get the walker every day as well as a varied ridden workload. I genuinely do not believe that it is cruel for them. They all get 6-8 weeks of full turnout let down holiday as well.

I really, really hate this and I don't see how he is ever going to retire comfortably, given that these antics are when he is in medium-hard work daily.
So I started looking for a place, where I can give him free access in and out. I've found it , and once I get the keys I'll need to look for a companion who will tolerate him (pony mares seem to put him in his place!)

 

[SEL]

does the livery industry just need to accept that we have long wet winters now and that investment in all-weather surfaces is going to be a necessity going forward? I don't think shrugging and saying 'but we don't have hundreds of acres of well-drained land' is a good enough answer.

A friend had her horse on livery in a city in Germany with really limited space and they have an amazing system that kind of funnels the horses around the land on a track system with gates that are timed to let them into lounging and play areas, and then move them on to hay areas and small grazing areas at different parts in the track. it's so clever and allows the horses to be out all day moving around a system that is mud free.

As a business owner I understand that's a big investment money wise and livery rates would have to rise to cover the costs and it's an expensive enough hobby as it is. but is this something that will have to come in down the line as awareness of welfare increases?

I would be OK paying extra for a system which gave my horse turnout in winter like you describe. I may well downsize in horse numbers but I only really had 2 because the mare was neurotic on her own and can't have access to unlimited grass. Having 3 was an accident

 

[milliepops]

does the livery industry just need to accept that we have long wet winters now and that investment in all-weather surfaces is going to be a necessity going forward? I don't think shrugging and saying 'but we don't have hundreds of acres of well-drained land' is a good enough answer.

A friend had her horse on livery in a city in Germany with really limited space and they have an amazing system that kind of funnels the horses around the land on a track system with gates that are timed to let them into lounging and play areas, and then move them on to hay areas and small grazing areas at different parts in the track. it's so clever and allows the horses to be out all day moving around a system that is mud free.

As a business owner I understand that's a big investment money wise and livery rates would have to rise to cover the costs and it's an expensive enough hobby as it is. but is this something that will have to come in down the line as awareness of welfare increases?

the thing is, I don't think there is a particularly well defined "livery industry".
its very often just someone with a few spare stables who wants to cover the costs of their own horses.
i've been on some commercial yards but also a good few small places that run under the radar.
A bigger operation may be able to put up the ££ to invest in something permanent but the average horsey woman who has a livery or 2 is probably not. and it suits lots of people to be in that kind of informal arrangement.

 

[Lyle]

No other athlete at the top of their game would have 0 down time. Turnout, IMO, is down time to a horse. While humans enjoy putting on our comfy clothes and sitting on the couch with a book or TV to relax, this anthropomorphisized equivalent (stabling) goes against all horse natural behaviours.

I used to be of the 'individual paddocks only' mind set (stabling full time is not really common where i am) now I have everything (15 horses) in age group mobs. I love it, i love watching them speak horse, and its so enjoyable to watch their body language and behaviours. It's so important to understand these and their language, as I feel it helps us become better trainers and partners to our horses. Of course, they will all come into the stable either with a friend or on their own, and stand patiently munching hay because this is a skill they need to be comfortable with, but they really to enjoy being out.

 

[Annagain]

I'm very lucky in that my boys have access to grazing 365 days a year come rain or shine. They're in overnight in winter but out 24/7 in summer with lots of trees to shelter under - mainly from the the sun and flies rather than the rain. I am however in a pretty wet part of the UK, close to the coast and while my yard is at the top of a hill, most of the surrounding land is very low lying and under water for long periods in winter. I can see that my setup is already quite rare and is probably going to get even more rare over the coming years. Even a bit further north from me in the valleys (or rather the hills above the valleys) land is becoming wetter, more unstable and flooding is more common.

At the moment, in this area, the high end, full livery places are the ones that offer very little turnout in winter - or at all. They've invested in facilities such as horse walkers and indoor schools to mitigate the lack of turnout. I know one yard owner who told me the work to build an indoor school (yard already had an outdoor) so that liveries could exercise horses in all weathers - therefore allowing much less turnout - cost £200,000. If they'd invested that money in the land instead the horses could have turnout and there'd be no need for the indoor school. I don't know if they did research into what their owners would prefer or whether they just assumed it was the way to go.

Most of these are run by older people (nearly all our full livery yards locally are run by people who are 60+, younger people just can't afford to set up round here unless they inherit from parents) who have been working in the industry for many years and who were probably brought up with horses working hard and not getting turned out much so this is normal to them. I do see a lot of people, particularly younger or newer horse owners for whom at least some turnout is increasingly important. Ensuring this in future will be more difficult and more expensive so I think people will start to get more creative and invest in better turnout and these will be the high end options in future. It's important to remember that grazing and turnout are not the same thing. While I love the fact that my boys have fairly decent grass all year, I'd happily have them in some sort of turnout area / a track system with hay throughout the winter if that was what was necessary to get them out of their stables. The two big caveats for me though are that the area is big enough for it to be meaningful and that they are turned out in suitable company (if appropriate, I know it doesn't suit all horses).

I think (or hope, at least) it will take a couple of trailblazers to go out on a limb to invest in drainage and/or landscaping for fewer liveries rather than building more and more stables to have more horses on land that can't sustain them. Once a few people do it and realise a lot of horse owners (like me) would pay a premium for this, more will follow suit.

 

[DabDab]

does the livery industry just need to accept that we have long wet winters now and that investment in all-weather surfaces is going to be a necessity going forward? I don't think shrugging and saying 'but we don't have hundreds of acres of well-drained land' is a good enough answer.

A friend had her horse on livery in a city in Germany with really limited space and they have an amazing system that kind of funnels the horses around the land on a track system with gates that are timed to let them into lounging and play areas, and then move them on to hay areas and small grazing areas at different parts in the track. it's so clever and allows the horses to be out all day moving around a system that is mud free.

As a business owner I understand that's a big investment money wise and livery rates would have to rise to cover the costs and it's an expensive enough hobby as it is. but is this something that will have to come in down the line as awareness of welfare increases?

One of the problems with this is the availability of hay to feed horses on zero grass turnout. I fully expect that in the next 10 years it will be the price of hay not the price of livery that causes people to give up horse ownership.

 

[milliepops]

One of the problems with this is the availability of hay to feed horses on zero grass turnout. I fully expect that in the next 10 years it will be the price of hay not the price of livery that causes people to give up horse ownership.

good point! I probably have better hay-security than most and even so this year it's touch and go. i've turfed my stabled pair out for longer than I'd choose right now to reduce their hay consumption.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

does the livery industry just need to accept that we have long wet winters now and that investment in all-weather surfaces is going to be a necessity going forward? I don't think shrugging and saying 'but we don't have hundreds of acres of well-drained land' is a good enough answer.

A friend had her horse on livery in a city in Germany with really limited space and they have an amazing system that kind of funnels the horses around the land on a track system with gates that are timed to let them into lounging and play areas, and then move them on to hay areas and small grazing areas at different parts in the track. it's so clever and allows the horses to be out all day moving around a system that is mud free.

As a business owner I understand that's a big investment money wise and livery rates would have to rise to cover the costs and it's an expensive enough hobby as it is. but is this something that will have to come in down the line as awareness of welfare increases?

I've literally said something similar so many times (on here and elsewhere). You (general/YO) know the ground, yet every year it is a big thing that it becomes wet and unusable.

So you have to make it usable.

The yard where I keep my horse managed to do this. They had 6 decent sized dirt/total mud paddocks all next to each other. They then got some "old road" which are the millings from when they tear up a motorway, or wherever. Built the paddocks up a bit, graded, and compacted/rolled. Then got some old (but still good condition) artifical turf from a local football field and placed that on top. It held up all winter and they have several spare rolls for replacements.

The work was all done by the YO/YM and the partner of one of the liveries. They rented a machine or two, but overall, it was a pretty economical project and now gave us a dry place to put the horses all winter.

It's usually 2 to a paddock and they rotate (half day). So I thought that to be a fair solution that they could afford.

Another stable went all out with special mud mats in a very large area and does every other day rotations.

Also, if the project is going to result in an increase in livery fees, I'm sure a YO could get a feel for what liveries want, how many would pay/stay and so on.

 

[stormox]

I'm very lucky in that my boys have access to grazing 365 days a year come rain or shine. They're in overnight in winter but out 24/7 in summer with lots of trees to shelter under - mainly from the the sun and flies rather than the rain. I am however in a pretty wet part of the UK, close to the coast and while my yard is at the top of a hill, most of the surrounding land is very low lying and under water for long periods in winter. I can see that my setup is already quite rare and is probably going to get even more rare over the coming years. Even a bit further north from me in the valleys (or rather the hills above the valleys) land is becoming wetter, more unstable and flooding is more common.

At the moment, in this area, the high end, full livery places are the ones that offer very little turnout in winter - or at all. They've invested in facilities such as horse walkers and indoor schools to mitigate the lack of turnout. I know one yard owner who told me the work to build an indoor school (yard already had an outdoor) so that liveries could exercise horses in all weathers - therefore allowing much less turnout - cost £200,000. If they'd invested that money in the land instead the horses could have turnout and there'd be no need for the indoor school. I don't know if they did research into what their owners would prefer or whether they just assumed it was the way to go

I think this would depend if it was a riding school as well as a livery yard. If they are doing lessons an indoor school is very handy as it means its never too wet, windy or cold to ride, and its nicer for the instructors too.

 

[LegOn]

But also WHY is grass livery the cheapest livery... grass is the most important part!!!

 

[Chianti]

But also WHY is grass livery the cheapest livery... grass is the most important part!!!

I'm not sure it always is if you compare what you can pay to what you receive. Where I am we have stabled part livery and fully catered for grass livery - fed, hayed, poo picked, rugs changed. Obviously we pay less than the stabled but in terms of the time spent on each type of livery and resources gained I do sometimes wonder which type of owner is paying more. Not sure if I've explained that properly!

 

[Casey76]

But also WHY is grass livery the cheapest livery... grass is the most important part!!!

Only if your horse isn’t metabolic/compromised in any way.

There is a lot of grass livery in my area (compared to traditional stableyards), and not one of them could cater for my mare.

Half the fields were under 1+ feet of water with only a thin mud track around the outside for most of the (wet) winter. Personally I can’t think of anything worse, if you have no stabling, and that is your only option.

 

[Birker2020]

I do wonder sometimes how many horse owners are actually interested in their horses natural behaviour eg take pleasure from watching them graze, herd dynamics and just seeing. Many horse owners seem to just want to ride, compete or own them and oblivious to the little nuances of behaviour. That not a critism but an observation made from some of the replies I have read. I am a horse watcher. My working busy friends either dont understand or are mildly envious of the time I can do it. I guess there are as many angles to come to horse welfare as there are horses in the world. I know my feelings on it but often others dont think my idea of welfare is their's or they turn half a blind eye to what is ideal for that horse but doesn't quite fit their needs

Yes I love to watch horses. A previous horse that I owned, Billy, was gelded late and he was introduced into an existing herd of horses. Within seconds he was doing a wonderful extended trot across the field with all the others following him like the Pied Piper of Hamyln. I was entranced. Then incredibly he formed a group of horses and he wouldn't let the horses out of his 'circle', if another of the geldings tried to break rank they were forced back into the group by my horse nipping at their heels, whilst his nose was inches from the floor, neck curled, tail in the air snorting really loudly.

Another gelding, obviously the higher ranked horse, top of the pecking order was also doing the same.

I couldn't believe what I'd watched, it was so special and like I'd had a special invitation into a private world of 'the horse'. I ran back to tell my friends what was happening. No one was interested, I remember feeling so deflated that I had no one to share this wonderment with. I've never forgotten it and I never will, it was so special.

 

[JoannaC]

I really, really hate this and I don't see how he is ever going to retire comfortably, given that these antics are when he is in medium-hard work daily.
So I started looking for a place, where I can give him free access in and out. I've found it , and once I get the keys I'll need to look for a companion who will tolerate him (pony mares seem to put him in his place!)

I have this and it is brilliant, no more rushing to make sure she gets brought in first before the crazy galloping starts! My three (down to two now) all got on really well so I could either just let them have access to the barn with stable doors shut or leave the doors open so they could go for a lie down as well. It was always my dream for them to be able to choose for themselves and it has worked perfectly. Good luck it will be interesting to see how much time he spends in. Mine wander in and out all the time so probably spend the same amount of time in but just not in all one go.

 

[Annagain]

I think this would depend if it was a riding school as well as a livery yard. If they are doing lessons an indoor school is very handy as it means its never too wet, windy or cold to ride, and its nicer for the instructors too.

Absolutely, although in this case it wasn't and it wasn't hired out either, it was simply for liveries to use so they couldn't complain about not being able to exercise horses that had to stay in due to wet ground. I would imagine there are far more livery yards out there than riding schools that also offer livery. In this area, I can only think of one riding school out of about 10 that offer full livery (the vast majority of yards in this area are DIY yards).

 

[SEL]

Yes I love to watch horses.
I couldn't believe what I'd watched, it was so special and like I'd had a special invitation into a private world of 'the horse'. I ran back to tell my friends what was happening. No one was interested, I remember feeling so deflated that I had no one to share this wonderment with. I've never forgotten it and I never will, it was so special.

I used to have my mare and gelding on group turnout with some wintered out polo ponies. My gelding for a month was the only boy with a group of 10 mares. The mares all had their little friendship groups and he'd stand over to one side just getting on with the job of eating - but whenever he'd set off to the bottom of the big field they'd all follow.

The another gelding joined and he was a bit of a tart and gathered as many girls as he could into his group. My old boy doesn't do arguing so just ignored everything and slowly plodded off to the bottom of the field as he usually did. The new gelding was very miffed to find the girls all quietly followed the old fellow ignoring the young upstart! They all formed little social groups within the big group and it was fascinating watching how they took the lead from my old boy despite the fact he was the least fit and able of all of them (but had a wise head!!)

Nowadays they are just a herd of 3 but its still entertaining watching them

 

[Birker2020]

I used to have my mare and gelding on group turnout with some wintered out polo ponies. My gelding for a month was the only boy with a group of 10 mares. The mares all had their little friendship groups and he'd stand over to one side just getting on with the job of eating - but whenever he'd set off to the bottom of the big field they'd all follow.

The another gelding joined and he was a bit of a tart and gathered as many girls as he could into his group. My old boy doesn't do arguing so just ignored everything and slowly plodded off to the bottom of the field as he usually did. The new gelding was very miffed to find the girls all quietly followed the old fellow ignoring the young upstart! They all formed little social groups within the big group and it was fascinating watching how they took the lead from my old boy despite the fact he was the least fit and able of all of them (but had a wise head!!)

Nowadays they are just a herd of 3 but its still entertaining watching them

That's lovely. Poor youngster trying to make a name for himself

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Reading this thread has made me glad yet again that I do not have my lot at a livery yard and I can do as I please with them! I could never and would never advocate no turnout just so I could keep a horse. That is just cruelty!

 

[ycbm]

I wouldn't "advocate" it either, but having seen the number of contented horses I have which were kept without turnout, I really can't agree that it goes as far as cruelty for the majority of horses.

IF we reached a level of population saturation in this country where no grazing was ever available, then we would be talking about a situation where there were no horses in the country, so none born either. Would a horse really wish not to be alive at all, rather than live without turnout but provided with proper exercise and enrichment? I don't think so, myself. That's the situation I was talking about when I said I would keep a horse without turnout rather than not have one at all.

I would though, reject barn stabling. I get really bad vibes off groups of horses kept long hours in stables in barns.
.

 

[cauda equina]

If there was no space at all for grazing there'd likely be no safe hacking either, so the lucky horses would be following the sort of timetable that DG's horses get, and the unlucky ones would get a spin round an arena however often their owner could manage it/be bothered

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Would you like to live in one room only, get out into another enclosed area for 1 hour a day being told what to do rather than do as you please and maybe have a baloon attached to the ceiling to bat at if you were bored 24/7/365? Animals in zoo's have a better life than that.

So no. If you can't provide your horse with time outside to be themselves then you should not have a horse.

 

[ycbm]

If there was no space at all for grazing there'd likely be no safe hacking either, so the lucky horses would be following the sort of timetable that DG's horses get, and the unlucky ones would get a spin round an arena however often their owner could manage it/be bothered

My suggestion, that I am being criticised for, was made entirely on the basis that the horse would be able to receive proper varied exercise. There's no reason why there should not be hacking tracks available.
.

 

[ycbm]

Would you like to live in one room only, get out into another enclosed area for 1 hour a day being told what to do rather than do as you please and maybe have a baloon attached to the ceiling to bat at if you were bored 24/7/365? Animals in zoo's have a better life than that.

So no. If you can't provide your horse with time outside to be themselves then you should not have a horse.

The anthropomorphisation doesn't work. Horses don't yearn to read books and watch TV. They mainly pick at food, sleep or stand staring into space and all those can be done in a stable or in a barn kept group.

IF it came to that or nothing, with proper exercise, I'm reasonably sure they would choose that rather than not be alive.
.

 

[cauda equina]

My suggestion, that I am being criticised for, was made entirely on the basis that the horse would be able to receive proper varied exercise. There's no reason why there should not be hacking tracks available.
.

A situation where 'no grazing was ever available' sounded pretty jam-packed with housing or roads and land in very short supply
Unless hacking tracks could make a lot of money for someone I'm not sure anyone would bother to create them; horses are already at the bottom of the pile when it comes to planning new access