The turnout situation with Dani?

[laura_nash]

On the COTH thread on this topic, it has been stated a few times that people don't turn out their horses in Europe. I'm sure I read on here that possibly Denmark, Sweden and Switzerland IIRC, have rules about keeping horses that include a minimum turnout requirement.

Can anyone clarify that?
Any links to their laws?

If I did remember correctly, do you think that other European countries will follow suit?

I believe its Norway, Denmark and Sweden though I couldn't find a link to the actual detail of the laws in English.

Switzerland has a fairly recent law requiring younger horses to be able to socialise with other equines (which to all practical purposes means turnout or track / barn type livery).

 

[planete]

I come from the south of France originally and all the people I know who keep horses, from the lady who just likes their company, to the local riding centre and up to Pierre `Durand who owned and competed Jappeloud, turn their horses out. Travel around a bit and you will see horses grazing a bit everywhere (often behind a temporary single electric wire next to a road!). I am sure some high profile riders keep their horses like Dani, and turnout might be more difficult in the north of the country, but in my experience all the horse owners I know are grateful the climate allows them to provide turn out all the year round with open barn shelters against the flies.

 

[Cloball]

I worked on yard in the north of Spain that was a mix of competition horses, riding club ponies, a few liveries and a few breeding horses. Usually around 40 horses in total. They only had 12 stables max and only about 4/5 were used during the summer. We also did youngstock livery for professionals closer to Madrid who had little turnout. The north of Spain is pretty green and land is cheap though. Closer to the cities and further south I imagine it is more dry lots and stables.

I know of a few yards in Italy who turn out but not as we have here. More dry lots, 2-5 horses with hay and open shades and shelters. They have a lot more grass in the shoulder seasons but it's too dry for grass in the summer.

I think these are all acceptable in terms of socialising and welfare. I don't think any is arguing that unlimited access to grass is necessary for ALL horses at all times.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

I can’t seem to find any links in English but Denmark does have good welfare laws. From memory, minimum field size, minimum stable size (old fashioned stalls are banned), minimum ceiling height for stables. Shelters for horses who are kept out 24/7. The general view over here though is that it is healthier for horses to be outdoors as much as possible. We have friends here who are Norwegian and they say the same. I’m talking about people mainly keeping horses for leisure, I haven’t been to any pro yards over here.

 

[LEC]

Where did you get that turnout is a new thing?
Do you think that horses kept on farms were fed hay all year round?

Also, it is a bit irritating to say "on the continent they do this and that" when in fact the continent contains several different countries, it usually comes with false information too. What would you think if I said "on the Northern islands, they do this and that" to describe the UK, the Republic of Ireland and Iceland?

The majority of the working horse population until 1940s was in cities. Significantly dwindled after 1950s where the whole idea of a leisure horse slowly came in. You only need to look at warmblood evolution in last 30 years to see the significant change in working horse to competition horse.

Do I consider Ireland continental Europe? No, just like I don’t consider Scandinavian countries continental Europe, nor Balkans etc I am talking geographically. I have friends with riding schools in Germany, hence many discussions about horse management etc

 

[Flowerofthefen]

An ex friend has her horse at a yard where they barely get any turnout all year. 10 horses on 2 acres. They aren't fed very much either, each horse gets a medium trug of haylage twice a day. Horse has been vet numerous times for strange things. The only upside is that its the soundest horse has ever been. Before moving there he managed a week of work til it was lame again.

 

[LegOn]

I think it infuriates people because those at the top CAN do better- and they SHOULD do better in order to help change things. Instead of being 'I dont turn them out because I dont want them to get hurt'... investigate new ways of turnout, innovate - change things and see how it works and then it will give other people new ideas and ways of doing things.

It annoys me about her because she is all 'shake up the system' when it comes to her way of dress and style and is always banging on that she is challenging ideas about what you can and cant wear in the show ring with her yoga leggings and her lace jackets etc... well you are in a place of privilage to be able to do that, so do it with your horses! Challenge ideas of 'no turnout for professional' horses and come with new ways of doing it!

But to be fair, it doesnt seem that hard for people who have means which just adds to the frustration- surely individual turnout paddocks, with shelters wouldnt be out of her means or possibility... even if they arent in a herd or group - fine, I can understand that in terms of keeping them safe but they can groom each other over fences, investigate different type of fencing, work out ways to enrich their turnout without having to have them 'stand in mud with a bale for 8 hours a day'. There is actually an inbetween no turnout and that situation so find it!!!

 

[Birker2020]

Nobody seems to moan about the uk army horses based in london?

Never thought about it that way, they wouldn't get the flack that she does. So why is it ok for them but not for her I wonder?

 

[smolmaus]

Never thought about it that way, they wouldn't get the flack that she does. So why is it ok for them but not for her I wonder?

Well as far as I know they don't advise anyone else, like young teenage fans, to keep their horses the same way they keep theirs. It may very well not be "okay" for them. It's just a very different situation to criticise the literal army than a competitive rider who is putting herself out there as a role model/ influencer.

 

[SEL]

Never thought about it that way, they wouldn't get the flack that she does. So why is it ok for them but not for her I wonder?

They get taken out of London for holidays - sometimes makes it into the news when shiny black horses turn into mud monsters.

I'm now pondering over turnout in Hyde Park and thinking that would be fun to watch.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/muddy-cavalry-horses-make-over-643249

 

[milliepops]

x post with SEL

scuse the source, they had summer hols due to covid cancelling things too

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...alry-swap-London-Leicestershire-lockdown.html

 

[LegOn]

Never thought about it that way, they wouldn't get the flack that she does. So why is it ok for them but not for her I wonder?

So it's not about it being okay or not... its about how it's promoted! I'm nearly 100% sure army horses go on holidays for about 3 months of the year and get roughed off- I've seen the videos of them being brought back into work. Again no one is saying that is correct but as 'work horses' they do get holidays!!! Which is an old traditional hunt way of working horses.

Dani promotes her way of doing things as a following from her style and coaching etc so unfortunately in the modern world if you put that out there- you have to be prepared to defend it and take the criticism. She has the means to do better.... that's the bit that annoys me, and should do better- the rest of us and breaking ourselves to do the best by our horses and would kill for her privilege and means... and if you ask anyone whats the top thing you want for your horse - acres of well maintained, free draining land that doesn't get muddy with a stunning field shelter or stable access and of course tonnes of amazing facilities but usually turnout comes top of the list!

 

[DirectorFury]

It annoys me about her because she is all 'shake up the system' when it comes to her way of dress and style and is always banging on that she is challenging ideas about what you can and cant wear in the show ring with her yoga leggings and her lace jackets etc... well you are in a place of privilage to be able to do that, so do it with your horses! Challenge ideas of 'no turnout for professional' horses and come with new ways of doing it!

This is what it comes down to for me - she uses social media as a platform to whine about she should be able to wear her clothes and hair how she wants when she's competing*, and constantly rails on about how important freedom of expression is. Yet she can't be bothered to afford the same freedom of movement/expression to her horses? It's hypocritical.

She's also successfully built a platform/following/notoriety by being a controversial figure and leveraging social media, so a lot of her reaction to this row seems very inauthentic.

*(which...yeah, fine, though I think the hair is a H&S nightmare)

Edit: and to anticipate the #bekind comments - I find these are often used to shut down perfectly legitimate discussion and particularly where women are talking.

 

[Muddywellies]

I'm so saddened to see some pretty harsh and personal comments about Dani. The whole 'be kind' thing has been forgotten somewhat.
It's her choice. She's not the only one, far from it. Just checking my facts before I posted, I found an article on the King's Troop at Napier Lines and the article states that turnout does not feature in the horses daily routine (they get a holiday once a year). There are many city centre stable yards and how about those racehorses in Hong Kong living in multi storey stable blocks. (I found similar in Germany and Switzerland) There are millions of horses around the world who don't get turnout. In fact I'm just remembering a friend who imported a horse from Spain who had never had turnout (just access to a pen).

 

[LegOn]

I'm so saddened to see some pretty harsh and personal comments about Dani. The whole 'be kind' thing has been forgotten somewhat.
It's her choice. She's not the only one, far from it. Just checking my facts before I posted, I found an article on the King's Troop at Napier Lines and the article states that turnout does not feature in the horses daily routine (they get a holiday once a year). There are many city centre stable yards and how about those racehorses in Hong Kong living in multi storey stable blocks. (I found similar in Germany and Switzerland) There are millions of horses around the world who don't get turnout. In fact I'm just remembering a friend who imported a horse from Spain who had never had turnout (just access to a pen).

I would agree that its not nice to be overly personal about someone, BUT when that person wants to promote themselves on social media and use it to their advantage, it does come with its downside - people will have opinions on what you post. You are allowed say you disagree with someones post or opinion without getting personal or calling them names and at think thats the main issue with her post - she put it out there and people disagreed. If the language gets out of hand, fair enough; but people are allowed to disagree with you, thats the way of the world.

Those horses you mentioned are a commodity and business - which again is not right, but it happens. The point is that those businesses are not putting themselves out saying 'look how amazing we are' - Dani is, she is saying her way, her connection and work ethic with her horses is right and people disagree.

 

[Casey76]

I'm so saddened to see some pretty harsh and personal comments about Dani. The whole 'be kind' thing has been forgotten somewhat.
It's her choice. She's not the only one, far from it. Just checking my facts before I posted, I found an article on the King's Troop at Napier Lines and the article states that turnout does not feature in the horses daily routine (they get a holiday once a year). There are many city centre stable yards and how about those racehorses in Hong Kong living in multi storey stable blocks. (I found similar in Germany and Switzerland) There are millions of horses around the world who don't get turnout. In fact I'm just remembering a friend who imported a horse from Spain who had never had turnout (just access to a pen).

Dani could #bekind to her own horses and allow them to express natural behaviours, rather than be confined or in structured activities 24/7

Abuse of horses should not be overlooked in the face of the (much overused) “be kind” trope.

 

[Tiddlypom]

#bekind = #beinsipid ?.

Dani likes to dish it out, so let some flack come back and bite her.

 

[milliepops]

I don't think that whataboutery is a particularly strong argument in support of Dani's position. It doesn't make her look better, it is just a depressing reminder of the other horses treated like tools first, animals second.

And I don't think this thread is particularly attacking *her* just the choices she has made for her horses.

 

[Chianti]

I read an article about Carl Hester a while ago. He'd bought a four year old from Germany that hadn't been turned out for years- it went from the stable to the school and back again. He turns his horses out every day so he described how he walked the new horse to the paddock, put it in and turned around and walked away because he was too frightened to watch what it did. The horse probably cost a small fortune but it still got turned out.

 

[marmalade76]

I don't agree with her at all, no turnout at all is cruel. I also don't agree with postage stamp electric fenced paddocks with no shade or shelter or horses living out in mud (yes, I have a friend who insists her horses are "better off" and "more healthy" than those who come in at night despite hers standing fetlock deep in mud and constantly battling mud fever & gammy feet ?). Not everyone has ideal facilities but it shouldn't stop us from doing the best we can for our animals.

As for the "cyber bullying", so many folks court attention on social media in order to aid their careers, businesses, etc. They need to accept that they will get both negative and positive responses (I personally wouldn't call hero worship a positive, but that's just me) and they have to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth. They should also take into account that they are opening themselves up to all sorts of things - eg stalking, harassment social media should be used with caution. Mind you, I've noticed how they like to shout "bully" and "death threats" as soon as they've been caught out on something.

 

[marmalade76]

Having invested a lot and I mean a lot of money in providing choice and a laminitis safe environment for the ponies (all mountain and moorland ponies) by putting in miles of fencing and shelters I can assure you they only choose to go in the shelter when they shouldn't ie in thunderstorms. I have since move and rely on natural shelter now as the expense wasn't worth the use. In ten years I only saw the shelters used a handful of times. Yes I know many like them and if that was the case I would buy again but it isnt. I would love to invest in big trees but it is not my land and full grown native trees are very expensive

When mine had access to shelters, they only ever went in them when there were lots of flies about, if it was raining they'd be out in it, up against the hedge if it was driving rain.

 

[Merrymoles]

Given that one of my favourite things is watching my horse and his fieldmate grooming each other, I am most saddened by the non-existence of "social" time for her horses. It is not risk-free by any stretch - on one occasion my horse nearly took the other's throat out with a massive bite and the other is liable to kick mine if he's particularly keen to be fed or brought in but, in my view, and that of the other owner, the benefits they gain from their happy socialising far outweigh the risks.

They are stabled overnight in the winter and if either gets out for any reason, they head straight for the other's box to say "hello", they are known to call for each other if one is taken out of the field for any reason (although they are geldings so they don't seem to do the full-on separation anxiety our mares have) and if one is on box risk for any reason, their eventual reunion is ecstatic. I could not contemplate having a horse who could not interact with another horse.

 

[windand rain]

I do wonder sometimes how many horse owners are actually interested in their horses natural behaviour eg take pleasure from watching them graze, herd dynamics and just seeing. Many horse owners seem to just want to ride, compete or own them and oblivious to the little nuances of behaviour. That not a critism but an observation made from some of the replies I have read. I am a horse watcher. My working busy friends either dont understand or are mildly envious of the time I can do it. I guess there are as many angles to come to horse welfare as there are horses in the world. I know my feelings on it but often others dont think my idea of welfare is their's or they turn half a blind eye to what is ideal for that horse but doesn't quite fit their needs

 

[Abi90]

Never thought about it that way, they wouldn't get the flack that she does. So why is it ok for them but not for her I wonder?

They go on holiday for several months of the year where they are turned out with no shoes and left to go feral. They are also routinely taken away from London on various things where they do get turnout.

Yes, they spend several months living in but it’s by no means a permanent thing

 

[Dexter]

I do wonder sometimes how many horse owners are actually interested in their horses natural behaviour eg take pleasure from watching them graze, herd dynamics and just seeing. Many horse owners seem to just want to ride, compete or own them and oblivious to the little nuances of behaviour. That not a critism but an observation made from some of the replies I have read. I am a horse watcher. My working busy friends either dont understand or are mildly envious of the time I can do it. I guess there are as many angles to come to horse welfare as there are horses in the world. I know my feelings on it but often others dont think my idea of welfare is their's or they turn half a blind eye to what is ideal for that horse but doesn't quite fit their needs

Interesting idea. I spend hours watching mine and get a lot of pleasure from it.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Some of the attitudes of people are extremely frustrating.....all defensive with nothing to back up what's in it for the horse to be trapped in a box for so long.

Genuine question for those who see nothing wrong with this..
I have a Great Dane. My bathroom or outhouse, take your pick, are comparable in size related to my Dane as most stables are to the average 16.2 horse.
If I were to trap him in one of the above, with food and water, stood in his own waste at times, walked maybe twice a day for an hour but no free running, interacting with other dogs etc would you REALLY feel comfortable with that..?! Or would you consider me to be an uncaring, neglectful, abusive owner..?!
And if the latter, tell me in what way that difference to doing the same to a horse..?!

 

[milliepops]

I

I do wonder sometimes how many horse owners are actually interested in their horses natural behaviour eg take pleasure from watching them graze, herd dynamics and just seeing. Many horse owners seem to just want to ride, compete or own them and oblivious to the little nuances of behaviour. That not a critism but an observation made from some of the replies I have read. I am a horse watcher. My working busy friends either dont understand or are mildly envious of the time I can do it. I guess there are as many angles to come to horse welfare as there are horses in the world. I know my feelings on it but often others dont think my idea of welfare is their's or they turn half a blind eye to what is ideal for that horse but doesn't quite fit their needs

I love hanging out with my gang just kicking about while they do their own thing. Just as well as only 1/7 is rideable ?‍

 

[Winters100]

Some of the attitudes of people are extremely frustrating.....all defensive with nothing to back up what's in it for the horse to be trapped in a box for so long.

Genuine question for those who see nothing wrong with this..
I have a Great Dane. My bathroom or outhouse, take your pick, are comparable in size related to my Dane as most stables are to the average 16.2 horse.
If I were to trap him in one of the above, with food and water, stood in his own waste at times, walked maybe twice a day for an hour but no free running, interacting with other dogs etc would you REALLY feel comfortable with that..?! Or would you consider me to be an uncaring, neglectful, abusive owner..?!
And if the latter, tell me in what way that difference to doing the same to a horse..?!

Totally agree with this.

 

[Abi90]

Totally agree with this.

I agree with it but I don’t think anyone here is in favour of no/limited turnout anyway

 

[scats]

I do wonder sometimes how many horse owners are actually interested in their horses natural behaviour eg take pleasure from watching them graze, herd dynamics and just seeing. Many horse owners seem to just want to ride, compete or own them and oblivious to the little nuances of behaviour. That not a critism but an observation made from some of the replies I have read. I am a horse watcher. My working busy friends either dont understand or are mildly envious of the time I can do it. I guess there are as many angles to come to horse welfare as there are horses in the world. I know my feelings on it but often others dont think my idea of welfare is their's or they turn half a blind eye to what is ideal for that horse but doesn't quite fit their needs

Sitting on my yard patio with a coffee and watching my girls graze in the adjoining field is one of my favourite times of the day.