To hard to accecpt ????

[Meowy Catkin]

Across all species, the animal (or human) that emerges as leader is the one who is naturally more dominant and less anxious in personality.

But you're right, herd/pack/group dynamics really are fascinating

My most anxious horse is definitely top horse in my little herd.

 

[Urban Horse]

I'm confused - has OP changed name?

No, I'm not the OP... far from it. I'm actually the OH/horse carer/horse trainer of one of the board's mega posters... But throughout my fifty odd years with horses I've been very lucky having learnt horsemanship from numerous sources such as a Romany, ploughmen etc etc.... I was honoured during my charity years, to be given the chance to work with some of the most dangerous horses in the country (including some that had killed or maimed humans) and it's at times like that you suddenly realise that acting the 'Alpha Mare' and being dominant is certainly not the way to go. So if the methods, however 'untraditional' work with those horses, then it follows that they must work far better with ordinary horses that have not chosen the route of violence.

When NH first came around, I did think for a while that horsemanship in the UK might change, but some of the NH methods I've seen are actually far worse for the horse than the more traditional BHS methods... For example I've now met a whole generation of younger horse people, new to the life, that are convinced that using pressure halters and waving bags on sticks at a horse will cure it of all its ills. Further, the current 'trainerspeak' that indicates that the speaker has a deep knowledge of herd behaviour, is often so far removed from the truth to make it unreliable at best.... and dangerous at worst.

The OP may have a point, but we are so 'ingrained' in the UK with what we're told about horses that it makes us ridicule anyone who thinks outside the box.... We all 'know' don't we, that horses must be controlled to within an inch of their lives or they'll become rampant, dangerous creatures that will kill us in our beds.... because that's herd behaviour. Yet strangely studies have shown that in fact in herds dominant behaviour happens at such a low level that it can almost be discounted.... yet even if it's at a level of 1% we base our training methods on it, and ignore the peaceful horse interactions that make up the remaining 99% of a horse's life.

I think it was Martha Kiley Worthington that once wrote "Far better to be liked, than be Dominant."

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

I'm pretty sure people get languages mixed up. So then we all have to dance around what's been said. Urban you differ than the OP. It's easy to type not so easy to have the experience to apply what you say. There is no force here and I do not like robot horses.

As far as herd dynamics it's never very clear cut as boss and bottom. My lowest ranking, and only recently lowest ranking, pushes the "leader" around. No other horse gets away with that. Yet in strange situations, even dangerous ones, this mare rounds them up and keeps order til the situation resolves. I can explain in detail if one wishes. In all honesty I thought I was going to have to move my youngest from the herd because she was causing issues with the now lowest ranking. But I really didn't want to do that. The issues seem sorted. The leader that will keep a level head and problem solve if you like, is the sweetest mare in the bunch. No dominance or aggression.

Terri

 

[PolarSkye]

I've now met a whole generation of younger horse people, new to the life, that are convinced that using pressure halters and waving bags on sticks at a horse will cure it of all its ills. Further, the current 'trainerspeak' that indicates that the speaker has a deep knowledge of herd behaviour, is often so far removed from the truth to make it unreliable at best.... and dangerous at worst.

The OP may have a point, but we are so 'ingrained' in the UK with what we're told about horses that it makes us ridicule anyone who thinks outside the box.... We all 'know' don't we, that horses must be controlled to within an inch of their lives or they'll become rampant, dangerous creatures that will kill us in our beds.... because that's herd behaviour. Yet strangely studies have shown that in fact in herds dominant behaviour happens at such a low level that it can almost be discounted.... yet even if it's at a level of 1% we base our training methods on it, and ignore the peaceful horse interactions that make up the remaining 99% of a horse's life.

I think it was Martha Kiley Worthington that once wrote "Far better to be liked, than be Dominant."

You are so patently not the OP, simply because you can write a decent sentence - thank you for a well-reasoned, articulate contribution to this debate .

You make some good points - particularly wrt the parlous state of NH, both here and parts of the rest of the world. People who really want to practice "natural" horsemanship would do well to listen to/read the works of Mark Rashid.

However, I don't agree that ALL people in the UK believe that dominance is the path to take to produce happy, well-adjusted, well-mannered horses. Personally, I think people misread horses' body language full stop. What we see as dominant behaviour within a herd, is simply a means of expression to horses - and, as has been pointed out (by you and Terri among others) herd leadership/hierarchy is more complex than that.

At my current yard there is an elderly, blind mare. When she is out in a herd (sometimes she is on her own in a small paddock), one of the herd members will assume the role of her "carer" and lead her to valuable resources (hay, water, hard feed). It's always one of two who assumes this role . . . either the young (I think she's 4), feisty coloured mare who is a very "busy" horse with a sharp nature, constantly interacting with/correcting the others - or the elderly, gentle shetland gelding who is so laid back he is horizontal and keeps himself to himself. Which one is the "leader" . . . ?

Lastly, I think there are two issues being debated on this thread . . . one is whether or not horses are happier with firm boundaries (domesticated or not), the other is how those boundaries should be instilled/maintained. I think even you agree that the first is a no-brainer (and this is where most people part company with the OP) - horses DO need boundaries - they need to understand where they fit into the herd, what's safe/what's not, what to expect - they thrive on routine and prefer not to be surprised by a lack of consistency. It's how they are wired. On the second point, I agree with Equilibrium Ireland - we're talking about semantics in language. There's a difference between a horse who isn't allowed to breathe without the owner's permission, and one who has basic manners - and it's perfectly possible to teach basic manners without force, aggression or violence. However, as in any interaction either inter- or intra-species, it's about a continuous conversation . . . and, as in any conversation, sometimes one side or the other might need to "raise their voice" a little to emphasize their point. Horses do it with each other, e.g., horse A wants to play with horse B (who wants to sleep) - A nibbles at B's back leg, first B flicks an ear - A continues, then B swishes tail - A continues, then B stamps foot - A continues, then B lifts leg . . . you get my drift. So if I have (politely) asked Kal to move over/out of my space and he ignores me, what do I do? In all probability I will amplify the "ask" - that doesn't mean I go straight to slapping him on the shoulder and screaming at him . . . but I will up the ante a little to reinforce my request. If I didn't want/need him to move over, I wouldn't have asked him - so I mean what I say and I want him to do as I ask. If that's dominance, hand me a leather catsuit and a long whip .

P

 

[Landcruiser]

Really interesting thread with some very well reasoned posts, especially the last few. I suspect the OP has got slightly out of her depth here - which is a shame.

 

[ribbons]

Very well put polarskye.
I think what has happened is that OP has listened to someone like urban horse, who clearly has knowledge and experience, and tried to replicate their methods, but without any idea what they are doing.
She admits her horse is the boss and she's happy with that. He is allowed to make the decisions.
That is very different to building a partnership.
Her posts have thoroughly alarmed me, not least because she has introduced someone else's very small children into the mix.
Some people have a natural way of understanding horses and building that partnership. With just a couple of posts, I got the impression urban horse was one of these people. Unfortunately I feel OP is trying to replicate such methods without any understanding, almost expecting the desired result to just happen.

My old dad used to have a saying that is truer today than ever I think.
'There are horse people, and there are people who have horses.

If that sounds harsh then I'm sorry, but I see it day after day after day. The amount of people who read an article, or watch a demo, by a highly respected horse man/woman with a lifetime of experience and learning behind them. Then go home, grab the horse and expect to get the same results in a day or two. It truly scares the bejeezes out of me.

 

[blitznbobs]

The difference between urban and the op is obvious - I'd not let the op on my yard... I'd pay urban to come...

 

[windand rain]

I think the problem is that the two camps appear to be separated by a simple misunderstanding. I have never raised either a hand or a voice to my ponies but they have boundaries and are happy well adjusted free thinking animals who are capable of living in a small herd without conflict. Boundaries are probably very boring to instil without the fancy halters and sticks with bags but the revolve around repetition. I do however strongly believe that without a secure network they flounder a lot like children with no rules
I have house rules for both and so far have never had an issue with either children are polite and interesting and I can take them anywhere the Horses are bright sharp and I can take them anywhere. With horses as in a lot of the worlds needs it is all about physics. apply a small amount of non aggressive force and you get an equal and opposite reaction. I abhor violence with either, either shouting or hitting so it is very quiet when I am around my horses on my own I can't say the same for others but the ponies cope well ass they understand the human world we live in.
Everyone knows the rules and they know the consequences of breaking them children and horses alike know when I ask I expect the correct answer but of course everyone makes mistakes aand these are dealt with by the consequences I never threaten any with something I cannot or am not willing to carry out so so far I have never told a child I will kill them if they dont behave nor allowed the youngsters to take a crafty nip they get pushed away or a tread on a foot seems to work for me the ponies are all easy to handle and all bar one able to be handled by small children. The one I am not sure how to deal with as he is aggressive and dangerous when loose in the field a real charmer when caught up largely speaking I leave him to do his own thing when in the field if he wants a fuss he comes to get it if he comes teeth bared he gets chased away. I did try to fix him initially but have accepted he can never leave here as he is a child size pony and he hates children and someone somewhere would think hammering him would cure his dominance and aggressive tendencies It wont it would make him worse he is unusual in that he is a fighter not a flight animal. Born that way as I have owned him since he was a few weeks old and he has always been handled the same way as the others he just cannot accept the house rules

 

[Goldenstar]

There's a difference between dominance and leadership .
I am without doubt the leader no question of it .
I am training my horses and producing and managing them to the jobs they are required to do for us.
In return they get free health care , a healthy diet ( less abundant than some might
Like ) a safe pleasant place to live in a small settled group.
It's really not a bad deal for them .
I have bought several horses over the years from people who let them be in charge including one memorable mare who had been bottle fed and was frankly a pita .
Yes she was a challenge at first but once she got that she did not need to take all these scary choices all day she became a relaxed amusing friend ( although she had the odd wobble on the catching front ) .
Some people do have a understanding of horses it's easy when you do,
I have worked strived and learned from five years old to be good with horses although now I am in my fifties I am still as committed to learning and doing things better ( although I am less interested in competitions than I was once ).
All my life I have worked hard physically and mentally to learn to be as good as possible at this .
I could not really follow what OP was getting at in her posts but if the horse takes all the decisions I fail to see how you could safely ride it at all.

 

[Red-1]

You can't 'make' one of ours do anything. In his head, he is equestrian royalty and he will not be bossed around by his minions. But you can set up situations and change the way you ask, so the right answer is easy and the wrong answer is harder, and then he thinks he is doing what he wants. Whereas my youngster is completely different - he has such a workmanlike attitude he just needs a list of clear instructions and he'll get on with it. He gets worried if there are no clear instructions as he sees that as weak leadership and then wants to take charge himself.

This.

I love to have horses that have previously been "difficult" and who can't be "Mastered" or "told". It keeps me honest about what "I Want" and how I "get it". It is a dance of making my goal our goal, or of sometimes moving my goal. Quite often my horse knows best, and by keeping our relationship so as he has an opinion he is able to communicate his wants and needs to me without the previous "bad" behaviour.

I also sympathise with the attitude on a lot of commercial yards. I teach a lot of people who wish to be what is regarded as "alternative" and there can be a surprising reaction when owners play silly puzzles with their horses.

By the thinking quoted above my horse is equally happy to play silly games, BD, BE, BS and hack, so if presented properly horses can be happily doing a range of things. I also hate the forceful way, but there is a balance I think between forcing a horse and letting him make up his own mind.

For example, with the puddle situation, my horse did not like these, and because of his history could not be "ordered" to go through (previous habitual rearer), so I would gently request and wait it out. After being allowed to think it through he would creep through. Now he does not even hesitate, he will realise that he doesn't have to go through, but he isn't turning back either. I am happy to just wait. He prefers to go through, his decision.

As Esther says , the right thing is his choice. Happy horse and rider.

I hope you find your balance in your situation.

 

[Queenbee]

No, I'm not the OP... far from it. I'm actually the OH/horse carer/horse trainer of one of the board's mega posters... But throughout my fifty odd years with horses I've been very lucky having learnt horsemanship from numerous sources such as a Romany, ploughmen etc etc.... I was honoured during my charity years, to be given the chance to work with some of the most dangerous horses in the country (including some that had killed or maimed humans) and it's at times like that you suddenly realise that acting the 'Alpha Mare' and being dominant is certainly not the way to go. So if the methods, however 'untraditional' work with those horses, then it follows that they must work far better with ordinary horses that have not chosen the route of violence.

When NH first came around, I did think for a while that horsemanship in the UK might change, but some of the NH methods I've seen are actually far worse for the horse than the more traditional BHS methods... For example I've now met a whole generation of younger horse people, new to the life, that are convinced that using pressure halters and waving bags on sticks at a horse will cure it of all its ills. Further, the current 'trainerspeak' that indicates that the speaker has a deep knowledge of herd behaviour, is often so far removed from the truth to make it unreliable at best.... and dangerous at worst.

The OP may have a point, but we are so 'ingrained' in the UK with what we're told about horses that it makes us ridicule anyone who thinks outside the box.... We all 'know' don't we, that horses must be controlled to within an inch of their lives or they'll become rampant, dangerous creatures that will kill us in our beds.... because that's herd behaviour. Yet strangely studies have shown that in fact in herds dominant behaviour happens at such a low level that it can almost be discounted.... yet even if it's at a level of 1% we base our training methods on it, and ignore the peaceful horse interactions that make up the remaining 99% of a horse's life.

I think it was Martha Kiley Worthington that once wrote "Far better to be liked, than be Dominant."

I most certainly do not ridicule those who think outside the box, I find it a commendable quality that in some cases has uncovered some incredibly useful insights, skills and techniques. That does not mean that just because one accepts one 'outside the box' technique/idea that one has to accept them all. I find op's approach to go so against the grain, of all the various techniques and approaches that I have used, this doesn't compliment any of them in my opinion and the potential issues and problems caused by this approach (not all of which would be immediately apparent) far outweigh the positive effects (if any) that I can see.

 

[Queenbee]

Very well put polarskye.
I think what has happened is that OP has listened to someone like urban horse, who clearly has knowledge and experience, and tried to replicate their methods, but without any idea what they are doing.

I agree. And isn't that always the start of the car crash

 

[PolarSkye]

I agree. And isn't that always the start of the car crash

Yep.

P

 

[Darremi]

I think some people are conflating setting reasonable boundaries with "dominating" a horse.

I try to be the boss of the herd when it comes to my horse and I. However, for the most part I do not assert myself. We largely have a symbiosis. I expect most horse people are like this.

There are rare times times when it is necessary to take a stand with certain behaviour. But once you let them now once or a few times, horses will generally learn where the boundaries are.

 

[PolarSkye]

I think some people are conflating setting reasonable boundaries with "dominating" a horse.

Agree.

I try to be the boss of the herd when it comes to my horse and I. However, for the most part I do not assert myself. We largely have a symbiosis. I expect most horse people are like this.

Don't really agree . . . I am not "the boss" of my little herd (of two) - I am the human - I'm pretty sure both Kal and Rog are intelligent enough to know that I'm not another horse, so I don't need to be "boss" I am simply Other/Provider and "she who must be respected." In addition, our relationship is certainly not symbiotic . . . I don't "need" them to fulfill my daily needs - but they certainly need me. Also, you are contradicting yourself. How can you be "boss" if you don't assert yourself - and, surely, there's no "boss" in symbiosis?

There are rare times times when it is necessary to take a stand with certain behaviour. But once you let them now once or a few times, horses will generally learn where the boundaries are.

Depends on the horse. Some will always, always, always push their luck (I own one of these - he's very intelligent and likes to continually test boundaries - or perhaps his inherent insecurity makes him test those boundaries to make sure they are still there).

What I find most disturbing about the OP's assertion (and modern, so-called NH in general) is the assumption that ALL horses can be stereotyped/grouped and treated accordingly. They are individuals, just like us - and we apply cookie-cutter approaches to their management at our peril. What's required is a pair of eyes, a pair of ears and a brain . . . and the ability to parse the myriad of information out there and make common sense decisions based on the horse in front of you.

P

 

[Ladyinred]

Some great posts in this thread (secretly bumping it up )

 

[PolarSkye]

Some great posts in this thread (secretly bumping it up )

Agree! What started out as a preposterous set of statements from the OP has turned into a really interesting discussion.

P

 

[Ibblebibble]

Some great posts in this thread (secretly bumping it up )

glad you bumped it as there are some very interesting posts which i would have missed.

 

[Landcruiser]

This is my two pen'th. A couple of things, really.
A few years ago I took a pony on loan for my young novice daughter, who seemed to be all sweetness and light. She led nicely, she was affectionate, the first couple of times my daughter rode her in the arena she was compliant. Then one time she jumped out from underneath leaving my daughter on the ground. It was assumed she'd spooked. What had actually happened I think was she'd decided she couldn't be bothered and wanted to do her own thing. From then on, she was a total, and extreme, nightmare. My daughter lost all confidence, so I tried to ride her myself, as well as lunging, leading out in hand, general schooling. No whips, no hitting. This mare would roll under saddle, and buck like stink, she'd napp, she'd spin, she'd kick out at me on the lunge. She'd try to graze the whole time. She'd suddenly take off - essentially, she was dangerous. I sent her back in pretty short order. I then found out from someone else on the pony's yard, that the pony was regularly ridden by an old lady, who literally let her munch her way along wherever she wanted to go. She'd been broken by the owner, who doted on her but didn't ride her (too tall). From then on she's had no boundaries, and been allowed to make her own choices. This was the result. I suspect that pony has since been shot.

I consider myself a decent horseperson, in that both my horses are well mannered, I can ride them where I want, handle them all over. They are good with vets, dentists, trimmers etc. I enjoy their company, and they seem to enjoy mine, in that they come to me for a scratch, watch me, relax with me, happily allow me to work with them. I also consider myself a "natural" horse person, and I will allow my horses to make some decisions - the best path over rough ground, the best stride for a jump, and even a stop to admire the view and to have a smell and a listen. Why not, if we're not in a hurry? But that's not the same as not having boundaries. If I say go, we go, and if I say stop, we stop. Now. They know I mean it, or I wouldn't ask/tell. The most force I ever need is a wave of the rein end (I use split reins) or a bit of a kick (I don't usually use anything more than the lightest release or feel). Less is more.
I think my approach produces a balanced horse, which knows the boundaries, is allowed to ask questions and give an opinion, which may or may not be acted on. I have 2 very well behaved and well socialised happy dogs too, and a couple of kids I can take anywhere, in any company, and they are all teaching me stuff all the time too. I'm not inflexible (in fact I'm pretty laid back about a lot of stuff a lot of people care about), but the important boundaries are clear , albeit sometimes open to negotiation.

 

[chestnut cob]

Landcruiser, what a scary story! I'm not surprised your daughter lost her confidence!

I knew of one that had been brought up by a husband and wife since being tiny, and they'd treated it like a dog. Playing with them in the field, letting it (as a foal) put its legs up on their shoulders, giving it no boundaries at all, and it didn't learn how to behave. Tried to back it and couldn't so I believe it was sent away. It ended up with someone I know, after they'd tried to back it a couple of times, to be schooled as it was "dangerous". No one could do anything with it because it had grown into a 17.2hh brute which still thought it could play with people. If it didn't want to be ridden, it would just get on the floor and roll. It was rude, aggressive and nasty. In the end it spent a summer turned out at my old yard and was PTS. Really sad actually since it was people who made that horse the way it was. It was anxious all the time as a result of being allowed to do as it pleased. The horse wasn't the problem here, it was how it had been brought up. I was sorry when I heard it had been PTS, because it should never have been allowed to end up in that situation and should have been educated properly in the first place.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

I have a 13.2 here that we started last year at 4 and let off for the winter. Completely unhandled and boy was she a powder keg. She has turned into a lovely pony without force. The reality is she will most likely be a child's pony. She is never beaten or booted or anything mean but she can't just do as she pleases. That would not be a pony that will land in a good spot. So poster above I feel your pain. Takes good schooling to get them right again and a lot of time. And still if you give them a chance to go back to old habits they'll most likely take it.

Terri

 

[Alec Swan]

Across all species, the animal (or human) that emerges as leader is the one who is naturally more dominant and less anxious in personality.

.......

All of that is summed up in the one word, 'Confidence'. When we shout and scream and rant and rave, all that we display is fear. Most animals have a greater awareness of our (and perhaps their) body language than we do. Perhaps, as humans we are too reliant upon speech. I'm not sure.

I haven't read all through this thread, but will do tonight. Some properly interesting posts!

Alec.

 

[Patterdale]

All of that is summed up in the one word, 'Confidence'.

That's the word I was looking for!

 

[Tiddlypom]

All of that is summed up in the one word, 'Confidence'. When we shout and scream and rant and rave, all that we display is fear. Most animals have a greater awareness of our (and perhaps their) body language than we do. Perhaps, as humans we are too reliant upon speech. I'm not sure.

I had my EDT out yesterday to float the teeth of my lot. He is not only a very good dentist, but he has a great natural affinity with horses and they all settle with him. He was so good with my 3yo filly, who can be wary with strangers. He just calmly introduced himself to her, carried chatting to me and before she knew it she had the dental gag in. Over the course of a few minutes, she was accepting the power tools and having her caps removed, and he kept chatting to me and giving her breaks. By the end, she was fully relaxed and she nuzzled him affectionately after he removed the gag.

He made it look so easy, but then that is the sign of a genius.

 

[AmyMay]

I'm loving this thread.

 

[Fides]

Please let this thread die - the spelling mistake in the title is giving me the heebie jeebies...

 

[doriangrey]

I'm not. I thing the OP has had a very rough deal. Her horse seems to be thriving with a different approach. She has consistently said that he/she is better behaved and yet .. ouch could she have more scorn/derision piled upon her? Then along comes 'urbon foal' and says that his/her horses have been brought up with 'no boundaries' and not one realistic challenge to it (maybe polar skye). Sorry 'urban foal' - this is not an attack on you, just how come this was accepted from you and not the OP?

 

[Ranyhyn]

Fides

 

[Ladyinred]

I'm not. I thing the OP has had a very rough deal. Her horse seems to be thriving with a different approach. She has consistently said that he/she is better behaved and yet .. ouch could she have more scorn/derision piled upon her? Then along comes 'urbon foal' and says that his/her horses have been brought up with 'no boundaries' and not one realistic challenge to it (maybe polar skye). Sorry 'urban foal' - this is not an attack on you, just how come this was accepted from you and not the OP?

Go back and read the posts again. The difference between Urban HORSE and the OP should be easy enough to spot.

 

[doriangrey]

Go back and read the posts again. The difference between Urban HORSE and the OP should be easy enough to spot.

Thanks but you don't need to point out my mistake. Maybe the OP was not as erudite in what he/she was trying to convey as urban HORSE (thanks again) why no derision in that direction? UH said it plain and clear .... the horses were raised with no boundaries.