To Stallion or not to Stallion...

The Fuzzy Furry said:
I disagree, there has been some very helpful and extremely knowledgeable posts from the start, which would help most equestrians to understand stallion care, management and riding. However, you don't appear to have acknowledged this, despite your very long and sometimes whimsical replies.

Good luck in whatever you do.
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I have worked hard to thank contributions which have been informed, even when they have been harsh. I have been unimpressed with the accusations that some folks seem happy to repeat and then get everyone into a pile on. Then yes, thats a bit like kindergarten though I thank you for your critical assessment on my verbosity. Given English is not my first language I am actually flattered. Thank you. Hedge.
 
HP you might not know the number of fantasists that arrive on this forum and with their opening post start weaving a yarn about some unlikely situation trying to make fools of other posters who engage with them.

with that knowledge, if you read your posts with detachment you might appreciate why there's a degree of suspicion.
People on this forum are kind and generous with their advice on the whole, but self preservation steps in when something seems a bit odd. That's why you've been challenged on some of the vague details you have supplied that seem outside the norm.
 
ycbm said:
I would have expected it to have been much higher for a fertile stallion with sought after blood lines trained to the very top level of Haute École. A top Lusitano training yard near me pays £30-50k for an untrained four year old stallion. It is the value of the horse, as much as anything, which is causing people to doubt your story.

.
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This is a fair point. I have only seen him perform one movement, I have no idea if he can do others. Again, some wild speculation that he has been trained like some super horse, these threads did not come from me, but from others. Words like Haute Ecole and Capriole were not mine. I happen to think he looks like a magnificent horse. He may be a dud. I have admitted as much but it seems its more fun to repeat the first bit.

I would certainly have him vet checked etc. I have 2 or 3 people I know and trust in the industry who I would run the numbers past well before making any sort of commitment. My concern, for now, was my suitability as an owner for a stallion and as hard as I try to get the conversation back to this point it seems this is impossible.

Thank you again for taking the trouble to reply though. For the moment it feels like the whole idea is dead in the water before it begins where I am now reluctant to share more info as I have it, for fear it too will be torn apart. Thank you. Hedge.
 
I will admit to being a deeply cautious and highly sceptical human being so it all sounds a bit weird/suspect to me.

So all I will say is:

View with head not heart
Be honest with yourself about riding ability etc
Listen to your instincts, they keep us safe
If you decide to purchase have him vetted at his current yard by an independent vet
Don't rule out gelding at a later date: I used to work at a stud and all the stallions were eventually gelded so that they could live out their years turned out in a mixed herd

Personally, this whole thing sounds like way too much hassle to me. Their are so many nice horses here that you could have fun with. But I wish you lots of luck whatever you decide. 🙂
 
milliepops said:
HP you might not know the number of fantasists that arrive on this forum and with their opening post start weaving a yarn about some unlikely situation trying to make fools of other posters who engage with them.

with that knowledge, if you read your posts with detachment you might appreciate why there's a degree of suspicion.
People on this forum are kind and generous with their advice on the whole, but self preservation steps in when something seems a bit odd. That's why you've been challenged on some of the vague details you have supplied that seem outside the norm.
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Hi millie and this I accept and understand. But to stand at a distance and yell at me on a forum seems counter-intuitive. I have NO upside for making this up. A great example was the question of a livery. You were involved to start where this was raised as a very significant and serious issue. What did I do, I picked up the phone and asked the question. The answer I got was a yes. I reported this 'yes' to this forum and it was met with awful feedback. I am making it up. I need backup. I have not asked the right questions. Yards don't just take stallions. It must be dodgy. You saw it yourself. That isn't the behaviour of a community that is generous and well-meaning.

I have subsequently had more info. Which would continue to shape the thinking. Do you honestly feel given my reception I am willing to share it in here? You have a better chance of getting me pregnant. I sit here with an awful, hollow feeling in my chest and for what? Because I asked a community to help me understand the risks of owning a stallion. This is how I feel. I'm STILL getting the '20 year last riders don't get horses' line. When thats completely inconsistent with what I said, right from the start. But again, thank you for being diplomatic. I have clearly upset some senior members and without actually giving me any credibility it has turned into a pile on. Hedge.
 
southerncomfort said:
I will admit to being a deeply cautious and highly sceptical human being so it all sounds a bit weird/suspect to me.

So all I will say is:

View with head not heart
Be honest with yourself about riding ability etc
Listen to your instincts, they keep us safe
If you decide to purchase have him vetted at his current yard by an independent vet
Don't rule out gelding at a later date: I used to work at a stud and all the stallions were eventually gelded so that they could live out their years turned out in a mixed herd

Personally, this whole thing sounds like way too much hassle to me. Their are so many nice horses here that you could have fun with. But I wish you lots of luck whatever you decide. 🙂
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SC this has become a big part of my thinking. Its not a small amount of money and I seem to be selecting a rod for my back. I am genuinely sorry if this has been interpreted as suspect. I blame myself for getting ahead of myself at the start where I should have been shorter and clearer. Thank you for your reply. Hedge.
 
ester said:
One of my main concerns would be what happens if you find you don't get on with this guy teaching you, if you have agreed to be taught by him for a year. Friends don't always make the best instructors.
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Good point. But I would be in a bit of a catch 22. My gf and I would not be able to train him. I guess a big part of why this became an opportunity was exactly because I know I have access to top quality instruction. If I didn't it would really not be viable. But your point is fair, what happens if we fall out. In my mind there would be a sale. Independent of the training. The training would be like you might agree with any instructor. Again I guess a step would be ringing around once I have more detail and speaking with other trainers for a take. Thank you for your reply. Hedge.
 
You may want to have a chat with somebody at the Lipizzaner Society of Great Britain. http://www.lipizzaner.co.uk . The Lipizzaner scene is very small in this country and most people involved know each other. Starrock Stud imported two SRS stallions and bred them on the condition they were never worked by people who had not trained at the Spanish Riding School. There is great knowledge among the members of Lipi lines and stallions, management and training in general. Also of the SRS trained riders.
 
In an earlier post, you wrote something about paying 'a retainer' for the trainer. That's unusual, for the horse world in the UK, at least in my experience. People either pay for lessons weekly, or there are programs where one will pay in advance for a month of lessons but not much more than that. In the US it can be very different, and if you have your horse at a the trainer's barn, he's in their program (whether you like their program or not). That's less of a thing here.

Stallion issues aside, I would not personally buy a horse where my ownership of it is dependent on and perhaps a condition of working with a particular trainer. What if you fall out? What if you and your GF moved to a different part of the country? What if the trainer does? If you think the horse is suitable, buy it outright, like buying any other horse. Obviously, take lessons with the trainer so long as it suits everyone, but sales agreements with conditions that tie the new owner to certain people, places, or anything have a way of going south.

There are a lot of nice horses out there with no strings attached.
 
In my view every good stallion makes a better gelding but having said that if he is the horse for you and it all excites you then it is worth giving it a go as long as his welfare always comes first. Most colts and stallions when correctly handled are well behaved and no a lot different to a mare
 
Caol Ila said:
In an earlier post, you wrote something about paying 'a retainer' for the trainer. That's unusual, for the horse world in the UK, at least in my experience. People either pay for lessons weekly, or there are programs where one will pay in advance for a month of lessons but not much more than that. In the US it can be very different, and if you have your horse at a the trainer's barn, he's in their program (whether you like their program or not). That's less of a thing here.

Stallion issues aside, I would not personally buy a horse where my ownership of it is dependent on and perhaps a condition of working with a particular trainer. What if you fall out? What if you and your GF moved to a different part of the country? What if the trainer does? If you think the horse is suitable, buy it outright, like buying any other horse. Obviously, take lessons with the trainer so long as it suits everyone, but sales agreements with conditions that tie the new owner to certain people, places, or anything have a way of going south.

There are a lot of nice horses out there with no strings attached.
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Hi Caol. The discussion was about continued training for my partner. It obviously moved on to my training needs as well, when (if?) I found a suitable horse. That was all. In my mind I used the term 'retainer' as I wanted to emphasise that this isn't some random getting a horse dumped on him. I wouldn't take any horse without talking to my instructor, that just makes sense. To be clear the two are independent of one another. Any sale (unlikely as that now is) would not be tied to any sort of training or vice versa. I hope this has made it a little clearer, it certainly has helped me be clear that the two are not related insofar as a sale is concerned. Thanks again, Hedge.
 
Have you got any videos or photos of the horse as I would love to see him or a website or anything.

If you have found a livery yard that will take one why don't you go and have a look at the facilities and see how the stallions live day to day and their routine (sorry if you have done this already)
 
Kaylum said:
Have you got any videos or photos of the horse as I would love to see him or a website or anything.

If you have found a livery yard that will take one why don't you go and have a look at the facilities and see how the stallions live day to day and their routine (sorry if you have done this already)
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Hi Kaylum!
I have lots of photos. He looks absolutely lovely. Please accept that given my reception in here that I am reluctant to share more details on him, next thing the owner will be dragged in here to answer for his sins and that would be unkind. This whole thing has snowballed out of control.

The question of the livery would absolutely be next up, after I had met him and ridden him. Maybe sometime next week.
 
I honestly don't think anyone has attacked you or been rude. To experienced horse people, your situation sounds unusual -- indeed, downright odd. You have to expect the raised eyebrows.

To summarize your OP, you wrote, "I used to work in the horse industry at a stud and owned some TBs and Hanoverians at some point, but haven't really ridden in 20 years, and now my mate is offering me his Lipizzan stallion that's been trained in the Haute Ecole. I'm nervous about owning a stallion, especially one trained to this level and I don't want to ruin him. What do you think?" It's weird. Not saying it isn't totally genuine or an amazing opportunity, but it's not in the ballpark of what people who've been in the horse industry for a long time expect, so you have to roll with the skepticism and not be offended by it.

If you'd written that your girlfriend, an experienced dressage rider who's been riding Andalusians for a while, was offered the horse, that would still raise the concerns about keeping stallions on livery and all that, but it would be slightly less out there.

It's also true that bizarre and out there things happen all the time in the horse world, but you know, proceed with caution and sense and don't dismiss advice because it sounds blunt. This chap might be a great friend and the nicest guy in the world, but to people who don't know him, or you, but who have years of experience with all the weird, shady, and insane sh ** t that happens with horses and horse dealing, it sounds fishy. So don't be offended by those posts, either, but do take it on board.
 
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Caol Ila said:
I honestly don't think anyone has attacked you or been rude. To experienced horse people, your situation sounds unusual and downright odd. You have to expect the raised eyebrows.

To summarize your OP, you wrote, "I used to work in the horse industry at a stud and owned some TBs and Hanoverians at some point, but haven't really ridden in 20 years, and now my mate is offering me his Lippizzan stallion that's been trained in the Haute Ecole. I'm nervous about owning a stallion, especially one trained to this level and I don't want to ruin him. What do you think?" It's weird. Not saying it isn't totally genuine or an amazing opportunity, but it's not in the ballpark of what people who've been in the horse industry for a long time expect, so you have to roll with the skepticism and not be offended by it.

If you'd written that your girlfriend, an experienced dressage rider who's been riding Andalusians for a while, was offered the horse, that would still raise the concerns about keeping stallions on livery and all that, but it would be slightly less out there.

It's also true that bizarre and out there things happen all the time in the horse world, but you know, proceed with caution and sense and don't dismiss advice because it sounds blunt.
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Lesson learnt.
I should have placed a great deal more emphasis on the players involved rather than my own lack of experience of stallions. For the record I have not once used the terms "Haute ecole" or "capriole" or similar. You just quoted me from my first post. You used quotes. But if we go back thats not what I said at all, whats the point in writing something if people are going to make up quotes? It is a pity. I have repeatedly tried to steer the topic back to stallions.

To summarise for the moment, my take is that not being able to provide my own facility its vital I confirm the treatment he is likely to enjoy at the livery. This will be heavily influenced by how well mannered he is. For all my prickle in here I consider myself an empath with a keen sense of the welfare of any animal and if there is any chance he is to be consigned to a life of solitary confinement then I will end the discussion there. Thank you for your reply. Hedge.
 
HedgePig said:
You're behaving like its about to be dumped and abandoned with rank amateurs and it just shows your hysteria.
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But you are a rank amateur. You've not ridden for 20years. What on earth else could you be classed as? Its all well and good saying your GF is a good rider. The horse is coming to you and you aren't a good rider. No one is having not ridden for 20 years.
 
Leo Walker said:
But you are a rank amateur. You've not ridden for 20years. What on earth else could you be classed as? Its all well and good saying your GF is a good rider. The horse is coming to you and you aren't a good rider. No one is having not ridden for 20 years.
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Thanks Leo. I have tried to explain but its absolutely clear that you believe this is a bad idea. I have put you in the 'no' column. Thank you. Hedge.
 
Surely, If you have "worked on a yearling stud breaking horses in through your university years", you will know what is involved as colts and fillies would have been the order of the day
(by the way, I'm confused about this, nobody breaks yearlings except in specialist flat racing yards, which isn't mentioned).

I'm out......
 
You did say 'airs above of the ground.' "[This horse]... has done several years of schooling and has been trained to perform Airs above ground. To anyone not familiar, this is a classical dressage discipline where the horse is trained to rear and jump and kick in the air. It is extraordinarily beautiful and complex."

That *is* the Haute Ecole. They're just synonyms.
 
What does your girlfriend this to this (you getting the stallion not this post) ?

To be blunt I would not want to be selling my very highly trained horse (sex immaterial) to some-one who has not ridden for 20 years no matter what the arrangement. At the very least I would expect them to have started riding again and have a good few weeks under their belt.
 
eggs said:
What does your girlfriend this to this (you getting the stallion not this post) ?

To be blunt I would not want to be selling my very highly trained horse (sex immaterial) to some-one who has not ridden for 20 years no matter what the arrangement. At the very least I would expect them to have started riding again and have a good few weeks under their belt.
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Hi Eggs and thanks for joining the thread.

You're right, its probably beyond my abilities at the moment, though not my partners. I shall put you under the 'no' column that this is a bad idea. Thank you. Hedge.
 
HedgePig said:
Hi Eggs and thanks for joining the thread.

You're right, its probably beyond my abilities at the moment, though not my partners. I shall put you under the 'no' column that this is a bad idea. Thank you. Hedge.
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fyi I did reply earlier in this thread so I am not new to it.... (you even liked my last comment to help jog your memory)

Also I still think your gf is in a much better position to advise you as she knows you much better than a bunch of random people on a forum.

PS you can put me in whichever column you wish it really doesn't bother me
 
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