Today's session lists of progress

I'm new on here but from what I can gather I think this is a classic case of each to their own. Why does everyone have to comment on how other people train their horses? It might not be your cup of tea but at the end of the day, if that's how armas wants to train his horse and can see a difference then who are we to judge?
 
Moomin1 said:
Do you know what, some people on this forum need to get a grip. There are animals out there SERIOUSLY neglected. This horse is merely evading the contact. The trainer has made progress, doesn't matter how small, she has made progress.
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Christ alive, for the first time EVER, Moomin1.... I agree with you!!!!!!

Also agree with milliepops 100%. The whole picture is coming together.

Re: Lolo's thread about improvement/looking pretty/ugly.... You have to look at the bigger picture. Teaching canters piri's for example, when not established the horse often comes above the contact, looks a bit hollow and the overall picture isn't....nice... But, when you take it apart: is he stepping under more, is he taking more weight behind, is the back softer, is the neck soft, can you keep the activity..... It takes time and patience and there is always room for improvement.

I like what I see, especially when I think back to the first few videos. The best bit for me is that is does not run from the leg and scoot off away from the rider, he's starting to show some trust. Which is great :)
 
ester said:
I still can't decide what I think, partly because I respect AdorableAlice's opinion (and would quite like to see her friend/rider on armas) and also Auslander and Milliepops... and a fair few more who have commented both ways so I think I've given up thinking on it :p.
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I know what I think (and see) irrespective of what any others say. I've never been one for commenting much on these threads but I do still watch the videos, always with a faint glimmer of hope. A glimmer that is almost always dashed, however I wouldn't make nasty comments as it's not for me to say. James is happy with how his horse looks and is happy with the rider and that's all that matters. The fact that some people wouldn't let that rider to come within an inch of any of their horses is not relevant in the slightest.

If the Armas posts upset posters then the best piece of advice is this, if you aren't able to frown quietly and sit on your hands, then maybe it's better for your psyche if you don't open the threads.
 
I only meant in the way that at this sort of level and with this sort of horse I'm very much trying to take these threads as informative/a lesson from other peoples's comments rather than make any sort of judgement myself- I just don't know enough. And it's nice to take in other people's views of a situation. I hope that makes sense.
 
ester said:
I only meant in the way that at this sort of level and with this sort of horse I'm very much trying to take these threads as informative/a lesson from other peoples's comments rather than make any sort of judgement myself- I just don't know enough. And it's nice to take in other people's views of a situation. I hope that makes sense.
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Yes I understood what you meant :smile3: I was just kind of elaborating on it and went for a little wander in another direction.
 
I have watched these threads from the beginning, and there has been improvement in many ways :) I think OP has been very brave to continue to post them and I do enjoy the comments at the end. I think the videos are a good teaching tool and it is kind of OP to share them.

First the good :)

*Armas looks more in proportion - his head no longer looks large and too big for his neck and body (there is a caveat to this!)
*His transitions are a lot sharper and more balanced
*He is working better for his rider and listening more
*He is marginally swinging better through his body, though trot in particular is still very stiff, stilted and tense
*At times, often when more advanced work is asked of him, he uncurls, swings through his back and can create a very pleasing picture

BUT - the bad has to be his continued work very much behind the vertical. It ruins everything else. Most of the time Armas is hollow with his legs trailing out behind and very stiff through the back. Although progress is being made in some areas, the trainer does not seem to be addressing the real problem, which is a very hard one to fix. I know OP you said she is addressing it by maintaining the contact, but this is not working. He is no better than he was at the beginning of the sessions. He is in fact worse, as he is building up a lot of the wrong muscles in his neck which is counter-productive. The more muscle he builds - and he is noticeably building muscle - the more he will find it easy and comfortable to remain behind the vertical. He developed the evasion to avoid working correctly, now he has more reason than ever not to work properly as he is increasingly comfortable behind the vertical. To continue to work him this way means that when the day comes to fix the problem - and it has to come if you ever want to compete with him as you have previously said you would like to - then much of the work that is being done now has to be thrown out the window and all that incorrect muscle development reversed. As he is he would be lucky to gain 2's or 3's in a novice dressage test, particularly as when he gets tense he REALLY curls up and puts his chin to his chest.

I am not a good dressage rider like the trainer you have, but I think she is ignoring the basics and that may be just to please you OP. Perhaps if you left Armas there on livery and did not watch the sessions, but instead came back in 6 weeks say, you would see a real difference in the right direction. I've noticed OP that you do like to watch Armas do more advanced work. You love to see your beautiful horse do half steps and work towards passage - and why not - he is gorgeous. But it is not correct work and it is not actually what he needs to solve his problems.

One of the aims of dressage is supposed to be about building the horse athletically and allowing him to have a longer working life through being more efficient in the way he carries his rider. Armas is stiff, hollow and at times looks unlevel. If you want a flashy horse to show off to uneducated friends then you will have this - but do not be surprised if he develops lameness issues and perhaps does not have such a long working life. You clearly love your horse very much and he has a fantastic home and life by the looks of it :) Rome wasn't built in a day, and it will take time to solve Armas' problems. I am confused as to why the trainer continues to work him incorrectly instead of going back to basics and ironing out the problem, and would be interested to hear her reasons.
 
Nice horse, looks like a typical spainishy (not sure if that's a word) type horse to me , ridden like how they ride them over there.

Most I've seen ridden all quite happily go along kissing there chest. They don't seem fazed by it what so ever.

Wouldn't dare comment on the rider as she looks like she is far better than me so feel its out of place to pass judgment when she does a much better job than I would.
 
Hollycatt said:
I have watched these threads from the beginning, and there has been improvement in many ways :) I think OP has been very brave to continue to post them and I do enjoy the comments at the end. I think the videos are a good teaching tool and it is kind of OP to share them.

First the good :)

*Armas looks more in proportion - his head no longer looks large and too big for his neck and body (there is a caveat to this!)
*His transitions are a lot sharper and more balanced
*He is working better for his rider and listening more
*He is marginally swinging better through his body, though trot in particular is still very stiff, stilted and tense
*At times, often when more advanced work is asked of him, he uncurls, swings through his back and can create a very pleasing picture

BUT - the bad has to be his continued work very much behind the vertical. It ruins everything else. Most of the time Armas is hollow with his legs trailing out behind and very stiff through the back. Although progress is being made in some areas, the trainer does not seem to be addressing the real problem, which is a very hard one to fix. I know OP you said she is addressing it by maintaining the contact, but this is not working. He is no better than he was at the beginning of the sessions. He is in fact worse, as he is building up a lot of the wrong muscles in his neck which is counter-productive. The more muscle he builds - and he is noticeably building muscle - the more he will find it easy and comfortable to remain behind the vertical. He developed the evasion to avoid working correctly, now he has more reason than ever not to work properly as he is increasingly comfortable behind the vertical. To continue to work him this way means that when the day comes to fix the problem - and it has to come if you ever want to compete with him as you have previously said you would like to - then much of the work that is being done now has to be thrown out the window and all that incorrect muscle development reversed. As he is he would be lucky to gain 2's or 3's in a novice dressage test, particularly as when he gets tense he REALLY curls up and puts his chin to his chest.

I am not a good dressage rider like the trainer you have, but I think she is ignoring the basics and that may be just to please you OP. Perhaps if you left Armas there on livery and did not watch the sessions, but instead came back in 6 weeks say, you would see a real difference in the right direction. I've noticed OP that you do like to watch Armas do more advanced work. You love to see your beautiful horse do half steps and work towards passage - and why not - he is gorgeous. But it is not correct work and it is not actually what he needs to solve his problems.

One of the aims of dressage is supposed to be about building the horse athletically and allowing him to have a longer working life through being more efficient in the way he carries his rider. Armas is stiff, hollow and at times looks unlevel. If you want a flashy horse to show off to uneducated friends then you will have this - but do not be surprised if he develops lameness issues and perhaps does not have such a long working life. You clearly love your horse very much and he has a fantastic home and life by the looks of it :) Rome wasn't built in a day, and it will take time to solve Armas' problems. I am confused as to why the trainer continues to work him incorrectly instead of going back to basics and ironing out the problem, and would be interested to hear her reasons.
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Absolutely brilliant post Hollycatt. Educated, Reasoned, Balanced - and a perfect example of how to offer criticism in a way that desn't cause offence, and inspires thought. Hat off to you!
 
Well 'Hi folks',

This is my first time posting after much time lurking and taking great interest in the varied training/trainers of Armas. I have a few times spoken with James via pm to avoid getting in any slanging matches here on hho though.
Just want to say that I am totally in agreement with Hollycat.

I too have an andaluz horse (unpapered stallion) that had his initial training by a 'typical macho spaniard' so am well aware of the problems that can arise from this type of training.
My horse can be ridden hard and sharp and 'look the part' if you want to try and impress at the spanish ferias but two years ago when I bought him back into work after a 5 year lay-off I decided that I wanted to try and correct this because I was interested in competing (online as there are very few competitions where I live here in spain)
I am a capable but not particularly good dressage rider so it has taken a lot of time and patience on my part initially working alone, and in the last 6 months with a little help from a trainer. My lad had (still has if not ridden with thought) a tendency to btv, curl up and piaffe when he found anything too hard, exciting and/or stressful and always wanted to work at double speed.


I confess that sometimes watching the videos makes me feel very uncomfortable, but then at other times I see a glimmer of hope. I would not want to comment too much without haven ridden Armas but I do wonder if there may be another way to approach his ridden issues , regardless of how good or bad the current trainer is.

I sincerely wish James luck in his quest as he obviously adores Armas and is very proud of him.
These are only my personal thoughts, I am not any great rider/trainer and who knows I may one day be brave enough to seek some advice/thoughts here myself

...and btw James I respect your thoughts and beliefs, you need to do what you feel is right for you and Armas as it is you living and dealing with it day-to-day and not other folk and please keep posting as there are obviously many people with a keen interest in your horse ( I am sure my horse and I would never produce such an outpouring of emotions from so many) ....
 
goldenmint said:
**Anyone who can't see that there is some really good work in amongst the bad stuff is pretty shortsighted really.**

But you see Auslander thats your opinion and your not right! Its quite simple really you don't know what your talking about and you are making yourself out to be a muppet each time you spill your rubbish.

I actually feel quite sorry for you, you don't seem to be able to see that the more you say the more ignorant you seem.
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Posting opinions about how a trainer is working with a horse is one thing, but posting personal attacks on other forum members is really not on.

If you had perhaps posted.....

But you see Auslander thats (sic) your opinion and I don't agree with you!

it would be a little different. But having a different opinion from someone doesn't mean the other person is wrong.
 
nikicb said:
Posting opinions about how a trainer is working with a horse is one thing, but posting personal attacks on other forum members is really not on.

If you had perhaps posted.....

But you see Auslander thats (sic) your opinion and I don't agree with you!

it would be a little different. But having a different opinion from someone doesn't mean the other person is wrong.
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Thank you Niki! The personal attack didn't bother me particularly, as its just another opinion, and opinions are like .......'s. I was pretty annoyed at the tone of the post though!
 
Pigeon said:
Yes he is behind the vertical, and it is not how I would ride one of mine.

But he does look relaxed for the most part, I wouldn't say there is any degree of cruelty going on here, in fact he probably finds it easier (and therefore more enjoyable) to trot round like that than work properly into the bridle. She is a fairly quiet rider compared to many I see, so I've no doubt he's putting himself there. However, this is an incorrect way of going, and I don't see much attempt on her part to correct it.

The thing I do find surprising is her emphasis on collection. For pretty much the whole video he was not stepping through well, or even tracking up in trot. A spanish horse finds it easy to compact his neck and collect. A relaxed longer stride would be my primary goal with him, and I would have thought the first thing a pro would try to achieve?
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Pigeon's post is spot on for me. Yes, he's a little short in the neck and predisposed to going a certain way, but I feel the the trainer is trying to run before the horse can walk. I would like to see more rhythm, suppleness, straightness and impulsion into a contact. Then comes collection. The poster who commented that he would only achieve low marks in a novice test is correct.. Therefore, personally, I would be trying to achieve a free-er frame with some swing before trying to collect.

That being said, I don't see cruelty, I see a horse being trained in a way I would not want. Not my horse though!! ;)
 
Awww - thank you Ffion, Caol, Auslander and Fabikat (great name BTW and welcome to the boards). I will be really interested in seeing Armas in another 2 months time or even perhaps in spring depending on how much training he gets over the winter. I hope OP keeps posing his videos, both the ridden one and the at liberty ones :)
 
DollyPentreath said:
Pigeon's post is spot on for me. Yes, he's a little short in the neck and predisposed to going a certain way, but I feel the the trainer is trying to run before the horse can walk. I would like to see more rhythm, suppleness, straightness and impulsion into a contact. Then comes collection. The poster who commented that he would only achieve low marks in a novice test is correct.. Therefore, personally, I would be trying to achieve a free-er frame with some swing before trying to collect.

That being said, I don't see cruelty, I see a horse being trained in a way I would not want. Not my horse though!! ;)
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I think the trainer has been making attempts to improve these areas of Armas' way of going, and indeed I think she has made some improvements. But I think she is constantly thwarted in making considerable progress by Armas' contact issues. And I think that at this point, after almost a month, it is fair to say that it seems like this trainer is unsure about how best to do this, and I think you're right that at this point it would probably be sensible of her to take a step back from some of the work she's been doing with him and to try a different tact.

Up until now she appears to have employed a sort of refined 'block and drop' tactic, where she blocks he (naturally fast) forward movement to try and bring his back end underneath him and then drops (or releases if that sounds better) him forwards, in an attempt, I assume, to bring that movement through his body. I think this has very much improved Armas' acceptance of her aids, but has done little to improve his overall way of going.

I think Armas' attitude to work has improved dramatically with this trainer and that should enable her to change the training regime now to tackle the contact issues, rather than hoping it will resolve itself. This is all just my opinion though, and I must confess that I don't understand at least 50% of what the trainer does, so she may know something I don't, and have a plan in mind that I have no experience of.
 
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There have been some very salient questions asked in this thread, thus I have put some of the comments that sprung to mind to the trainer.
This is her response.

[video=youtube;cfwtRTuBAxY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfwtRTuBAxY&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
I really like all of her comments and I think she's a pretty good sport to continue answering them when it's clear she's not just talking to you as an owner :eek:

I think there's probably a bit of a discrepancy between what the horse looks like on the video and what he really feels like. For me that's why I'm *always* trying to give her the benefit of the doubt because the feel is so much more significant than the appearance. When she says he's not really into the contact when he is offering to reach out more .. well, she's the one on board and only she can judge that for sure.

Also the comments about using collected work as a tool rather than for the sake of teaching him to passage, for example, are really good (and what I thought she'd say tbh!). I never get the impression that she is aiming to produce a test-ready advanced horse :tongue3: I do think that is working because when she rides out of a collected bit he appears to produce the best working trot/canter of the whole session.
 
I agree with Millipops that she's great to be so open and clearly she will have read the threads( I would not be able to stop having a peek ) so good on her .
What she says is spot on its exactly how the horse looks ,its easy when watching a tape of a whole session to look at moments when you could say the rider could have done x or y and it would have been better but you can say that about 99.9 % of sessions with 99.9% of riders.
I would be so curious to feel what Armas feels like when you are on top ( because I have watched a lot of tapes ) because sometimes the feel from on the horse is so different from the feel watching a horse and on a iPad you are even more remote.
I continue to enjoy watching this journey .
 
i love these videos, please keep posting. i learn such a lot.

I've seen the bun fights on the Armas videos that do occur and ive come to the conclusion its just too easy to crtisise from an armchair. As both the posters above me have already pointed out, sitting on a horse can give you a unique perspective and insight than we cant have watching 'from the ground'.

Horses that have learned and learned well, how to avoid the contact by going BTW can be one of the hardest evasions to cure once established.

I like Virginie, she may not be perfect but she's not at all bad and must be quite someone to not mind the whole of the UK horsey forum population picking her riding apart on a regular basis. I sometimes wonder if you should be paying HER for that James ;)
 
It is very easy to judge and as Goldenstar stated its very easy to say you should do x y z. However it is Virginie that is in the saddle and has him in hand. I am happy with the progress, I am happy with the work and I am happy with the logic behind the work most importantly.
Todays session concentrated on transition whilst long reining.

Do listen to the her comments at the end.

[video=youtube_share;hAHLEtDjR2g]http://youtu.be/hAHLEtDjR2g[/video]
 
I really like that she has been open and answered the questions. I am pleased that she sees the collected work as a tool to aid engagement not an end in itself, I commented at the time that I would like to see more transitions to aid this- and sure enough she was ahead of me and had done a session today on trans. I also think her approach to the btv problem is sensible and actually if she sorts out the back end and gets him engaged then that will hugely help. Interesting indeed! I feel inspired to try some long lining!
 
Allover said:
Have you paid any attention to the riders hands? I find the trot work is uncomfortable to watch. You seem to be blind to the fact she is pulling his nose is with almost every step he takes. She can't even let him go on a loose rein and drop his nose out - which to my eye he is begging the rider to let him do- when he is walking on a long rein. Going BTV is the riders choice not the horses.
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I'm sorry I can't agree with this, going BTV is an evasion, I don't feel the rider is causing this, but she may not be dealing with it very effectively, which is a different matter entirely.
 
lula said:
i love these videos, please keep posting. i learn such a lot.

I've seen the bun fights on the Armas videos that do occur and ive come to the conclusion its just too easy to crtisise from an armchair. As both the posters above me have already pointed out, sitting on a horse can give you a unique perspective and insight than we cant have watching 'from the ground'.




I like Virginie, she may not be perfect but she's not at all bad and must be quite someone to not mind the whole of the UK horsey forum population picking her riding apart on a regular basis. I sometimes wonder if you should be paying HER for that James ;)
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Yes I like tham too, dealing with a horse that has learned to go BTV is really difficult whereas being an armchair critic is easy.
 
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