Tokyo Pentathlon SJ

[Meowy Catkin]

Awful.

Maybe this needs to be operated under FEI rules as others have stated?

A horse fall or rider fall should mean elimination from the whole competition, not just a few penalty points.

 

[Winters100]

I agree with those who say that jumping this height on a strange horse should not be a problem, but the problem is that these athletes are not riders. Also being allocated an unknown horse or pony for a lesson or low level competition is very different to the same happening in the olympics. I am so shocked by the number of videos on you tube which refer to the horse misbehaving - the poor horse was just reacting to the situation that he found himself in. I also found this video from the Beijing Olympics - again clearly a competitor who gives the horse no chance

Really this is so sad, I just cannot think how anyone would supply horses for this event.

 

[milliepops]

just watching that one from Beijing, the rules must have been reviewed at some point after that because now 4x refusals results in elimination.

 

[Annagain]

I just watched the first few seconds of that but can't watch any more. Please tell me the horse got up?

 

[milliepops]

There are also penalties for "resistance" though presumably they weren't applied to the german rider initially because her round hadn't started at the point the coach whacked it :/

 

[marmalade76]

just watching that one from Beijing, the rules must have been reviewed at some point after that because now 4x refusals results in elimination.

Yes, and the rule about the height of the course suiting the available horses, the Beijing horses (the ones that I saw anyway) looked fairly small.

 

[ester]

It got up, she got back on asap and carried on jumping. No one thought they should check the horse.

For anyone interested it is now on the BSJA facebook page quoted as 2021 world cup.

 

[ester]

The height rule kind of goes back to how many 1.20 somewhat forgiving types do all the countries have available to them. Because if they don't then they aren't available for competition either. Do they generally get 'better' horses at olympics because people are happier to lease them for that than other competitions. I'd be curious what the 2012 height was.

 

[milliepops]

yeah stuff like horse and rider falls in particular is why i think it ought to be run under FEI rules as a minimum even if the FEI don't take it on as a discipline. there are penalties for a horse fall, but why on earth you're allowed - actually expected, to get back up after a horse has fallen I can't comprehend.

 

[Annagain]

It got up, she got back on asap and carried on jumping. No one thought they should check the horse.

For anyone interested it is now on the BSJA facebook page quoted as 2021 world cup.

I'll get banned from here if I type what I'm thinking.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

OK I'm back to the option of having horses completely removed from the Modern Pentathlon. The whole culture towards the horses that seems to exist and also be accepted as normal in the event is not good enough by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[McFluff]

It got up, she got back on asap and carried on jumping. No one thought they should check the horse.

For anyone interested it is now on the BSJA facebook page quoted as 2021 world cup.

It was truly shocking. Horse was down for a good few seconds, then got up. They didn't even walk it to check it was sound, just chucked 'rider' back up and off they went. NOT good.

Perhaps Red-1 solutions are the most workable - a strong ground jury who can just stop things if horse welfare is compromised. But they would need to be strong and willing to do that.

 

[Lurfy]

Very hard viewing these videos. If the horses can't be better protected from this mistreatment then they need to be removed from the pentathlon.

 

[Annagain]

I'm starting to wonder if there's some sort of technological answer to this. A virtual reality type experience. A mechanical horse that's designed to respond to hand / leg/ seat / balance aids - too fast you have a pole down, too backwards you get a refusal, too rough you get bucked off etc? Level playing field for the competitors, no horses abused. I suppose it becomes a technological challenge rather than a riding one then though. There's not the element of controlling their nerves and building a rapport with the horse.

I must admit, as someone who is very aware of her own failings and building up the jumping with her own horse very slowly (I was ecstatic yesterday at doing a 2' course all in canter!) I can't believe some of these pentathletes have the arrogance and balls to even consider taking it on. Is getting to an Olympics so important to people that they think "yes I'll go and do that" when they know deep down they can't? And knowing they can't, why don't they try to improve?

I think I'm about to answer my own question here as I've just remembered something. A few years ago, I was in the jacuzzi at the spa in a hotel we were staying at. There were a group of serious swimmers there and a couple of them finished their swims and got into the jacuzzi too. They were chatting and one mentioned that he had just missed out on the training squad for the Olympics (I think this was pre London, maybe even pre Beijing) but was going to a selection day for other sports. He knew he wouldn't make the rowing as he'd been measured and despite being really tall, his 'wingspan' for want of a better word was too small so he was looking at some of the throwing events or maybe water polo if the lottery was going to fund it, failing that, he was considering some Winter Olympic sports like bob sleigh. For him, he wasn't dedicated to his chosen sport, he wanted to get to the Olympics. I'm sure there are a lot of pentathletes who weren't good enough at the individual elements so switched rather than it being their choice from the word go.

 

[milliepops]

The height rule kind of goes back to how many 1.20 somewhat forgiving types do all the countries have available to them. Because if they don't then they aren't available for competition either. Do they generally get 'better' horses at olympics because people are happier to lease them for that than other competitions. I'd be curious what the 2012 height was.

I rewatched the start of the 2012 coverage and they said the fences were between 1.10 and 1.25m.

different rules again then as they started with 1000 points and the faults for refusals/poles down were higher.

 

[Annagain]

I also think it would help to highlight the skill of the rider to the casual viewer if they showed some footage of the horses at the inspection with their regular riders. Showing that the same horses are more than capable / willing at that height would stop the pentathletes being able to blame the horse for their failings.

 

[Rowreach]

OK I'm back to the option of having horses completely removed from the Modern Pentathlon. The whole culture towards the horses that seems to exist and also be accepted as normal in the event is not good enough by any stretch of the imagination.

Honestly, that's where I'm at now. This so called "sport" should not be allowed to continue. I wouldn't trust them to treat the horses right even if they were only doing lead rein jumping over 30cm.

 

[Rowreach]

The height rule kind of goes back to how many 1.20 somewhat forgiving types do all the countries have available to them. Because if they don't then they aren't available for competition either. Do they generally get 'better' horses at olympics because people are happier to lease them for that than other competitions. I'd be curious what the 2012 height was.

It also begs the question as to whether these "top" athletes have actually qualified (or indeed ever competed) at the height they are expected to jump at the Olympics.

 

[AmyMay]

Holysh1t.

Indeed! ?

 

[Rowreach]

And while I'm at it, I am still fuming that Natalya Coyle was picked to be flag bearer at the closing ceremony when her total lack of sportsmanship was one of the last memories I have of Tokyo.

 

[oldie48]

I think the attitude comes from the time when the sport was invented (1912) and reflects the way horses were viewed in the military. Sorry, it is totally unacceptable and I fully support having the horses taken out of the event, perhaps replace them with an obstacle course in full pack.

 

[Bernster]

Ah yes, I really didn’t like how she left the horse after her round.

 

[Rowreach]

Ah yes, I really didn’t like how she left the horse after her round.

And then blamed the horse for not medalling ...

 

[sportsmansB]

I have been mulling this over all weekend since I unfortunately watched a bit of it on Friday

So are these athletes 'professional' pentathletes?
If so, they have the equivalent of a day a week, or about 1.5hrs / day to be riding. Several of them definitely did not look like they had very many hours in the saddle under their belts.
Are they not treating it as important as the other elements? Or don't they have access to a suitable horse? (if not, I'd suggest they PICK ANOTHER SPORT WITHOUT A HORSE IN IT!)
Getting on a strange horse and jumping a course of 1.20 isn't easy. But lets face it, they knew that was what they were going to have to do. So why did so many of the women in particular look like this was a complete surprise to them and they were so very out of their depth?
I'd suggest either a riding test for the athletes (not judged for points, just for competency) before the actual competition starts with those not capable not allowed to go and a hefty penalty score added, or a smaller course with marks for style (which would have sorted the men out a bit more too)- or a mix of both.
Also internationally accepted rules re falls and refusals incorporated, I can't believe they can get back on after a fall.

My horse is an ex 3 star eventer who would have the capabiity to jump a 1.20 course and is pretty rideable, keeps a rhythm, doesn't really stop, doesn't really pull. If someone got on like most of the men did and just sent him forwards he'd prob have 3 down through going long and jumping flat, but no disasters. If he got socked in the gob over the first two fences and the rider had no leg on, he'd not jump any more, he's not a complete dickhead.

 

[duckling]

Hopefully link works this was quoted as world champs- can't get it to come up with the original post so unconfirmed atm! Is it just a really poor culture they have re the horses?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=6200083063336911

I saw this earlier and honestly thought the rider was running over to take the horses saddle off, not get back on… it’s really upsetting to watch

I’m another that did BUCS at uni, and don’t necessarily think the idea of riding an unknown horse around a course of jumps is a bad one - but not at that height, and there needs to be a minimum level of competence that many of those riders just didn’t have.

It’s been years since I was at uni, but the league rounds were 80-85cm and judged on style, going up to 1m20 in the final round at the national finals where 2 riders both competed 2 horses round that course. They also switched to the horse draw in my final year where riders drew horses out a hat rather than choosing which of the team rode each horse.

I also organised 2 of the regional finals for BUCS, and had teams put a complaint in one year because they thought a rider was overusing the whip in the warm up. They had footage (in the days of digital cameras) which was sent to BUCS and I believe the rider was disqualified.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Also tack choices.

Why on earth was it acceptable to present a horse for the MP jumping in a gag without even a second rein? It is not unforeseeable that an unbalanced rider on an unfamiliar horse will get left behind and sock the horse in the mouth, and such a severe bit will hurt it all the more.

The horse was completely b00gered by the first rider. No one with an ounce of equine knowledge would have deemed it ok to leg another strange rider up and ask him to jump again a short time later.



Also the use of spurs and whips by unskilled riders.

The use of horses in MP has had its day, they have no idea.

 

[SibeliusMB]

Bicycles. NOW.

 

[bonny]

I have been mulling this over all weekend since I unfortunately watched a bit of it on Friday

So are these athletes 'professional' pentathletes?
If so, they have the equivalent of a day a week, or about 1.5hrs / day to be riding. Several of them definitely did not look like they had very many hours in the saddle under their belts.
Are they not treating it as important as the other elements? Or don't they have access to a suitable horse? (if not, I'd suggest they PICK ANOTHER SPORT WITHOUT A HORSE IN IT!)
Getting on a strange horse and jumping a course of 1.20 isn't easy. But lets face it, they knew that was what they were going to have to do. So why did so many of the women in particular look like this was a complete surprise to them and they were so very out of their depth?
I'd suggest either a riding test for the athletes (not judged for points, just for competency) before the actual competition starts with those not capable not allowed to go and a hefty penalty score added, or a smaller course with marks for style (which would have sorted the men out a bit more too)- or a mix of both.
Also internationally accepted rules re falls and refusals incorporated, I can't believe they can get back on after a fall.

My horse is an ex 3 star eventer who would have the capabiity to jump a 1.20 course and is pretty rideable, keeps a rhythm, doesn't really stop, doesn't really pull. If someone got on like most of the men did and just sent him forwards he'd prob have 3 down through going long and jumping flat, but no disasters. If he got socked in the gob over the first two fences and the rider had no leg on, he'd not jump any more, he's not a complete dickhead.

According to the bbc who have a table of funding for different events, we spent 5,500,000 million on the pentathlon so they are very definitely professionals. I don’t know how the funding works for other countries but I’m sure they all do a lot of training in all the disciplines. They are at the olympics not pony club.

 

[YorkshireLady]

we can pull up ugly photos of literally everything you can do with a horse. if people are wanting to ban the riding in the MP in order to stop the general public calling for the end of all horse sport i think that's a pretty short sighted idea tbh because everything has indefensible moments.
we need to strive to make it all better (or quit riding and encourage others to do the same...)

I do think this is where a long sighted view is needed. MP for sure needs a shake up. However the social contract related to horse sport is also getting more and more fragile. Though there are a few appalling articles badly researched by people wanting horse sports removed...there are also points made in them....for instance around the fact that circuses were once acceptable...that we shouldn't ignore.

Horse sport will prob go....and also horse riding. The latter I hope not in my lifetime

 

[YorkshireLady]

According to the bbc who have a table of funding for different events, we spent 5,500,000 million on the pentathlon so they are very definitely professionals. I don’t know how the funding works for other countries but I’m sure they all do a lot of training in all the disciplines. They are at the olympics not pony club.

I think the standard UK expects for the riders is much higher though than in some of the other countries. I also think they train much more for it as well