Tokyo Pentathlon SJ

[Red-1]

Hopefully link works this was quoted as world champs- can't get it to come up with the original post so unconfirmed atm! Is it just a really poor culture they have re the horses?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=6200083063336911

Disgraceful.

 

[abbijay]

I'll be honest, I haven't read every reply to this thread but I have been mulling something so apologies if it has been mentioned in the intervening 15 pages I've skipped...
The eventers only showjump circa 1.20/1.25 course on a horse they know well (yes I know they have already done 2 phases). I'd be very interested to see one or 2 of them, as full time equestrians, come in on a borrowed horse and see how they fare. I am sure many of them would do fab but I think it would show that this is a mountainous ask for non-equestrian competitors and unfortunately it is simply luck of the draw if they get an easy horse or an absolute tw... idiot.
In Sydney 2000 the para-riders were competing on borrowed horses - now it has been changed and no one could imagine them being asked to draw horses out of a hat.
Perhaps in future each national federation could be rightly expected to provide an equine for the use of their team members - i appreciate not all competitors can be expected to provide their own horse but a team horse wouldn't be hard to source and ensure it worked for their team.

 

[Fred66]

I am not defending the riding or the horsemanship of some of the MP competitors and certainly other methods of assessing horsemanship should be investigated. However those that say this is unfair on the rider then to me then that’s just the way it is, an element of luck of the draw, combined with their own skill and also that of the person before them (if they are second to ride), they choose this event if they don’t put the effort into learning to ride then they don’t deserve to be there, never mind winning a medal. The ground jury should be able to intervene if the riding is not conducive to horse welfare.
Regarding the animal cruelty element, then whilst ongoing treatment of the horse in this way would warrant intervention personally I think it unlikely that these horses will have suffered any long term damage, and I would pose the question as to if you feel it does then what is your attitude to riding horses at all ? If horse riding is to continue then novices will continue to learn, if novices continue to learn then horses will continue to have people land heavily, balancing on reins, yanking them in the mouth and generally being less than harmonious. There are also amateurs out there who are far too fond of the whip, of overbitting and using spurs, spare a thought for those horses that do have this happening regularly. Also this will fairly inevitably result in some horses having to put up with this on a more regular basis.
Saint Boy’s character is obviously not to suffer fools gladly and reacted accordingly, a harsh contact, no softening and insufficient leg certainly led to his use of reverse as an extremely effective evasion. He did eventually go forward and gave her a chance, but she made a mess of it again and he threw in the towel. I would imagine his reaction to his owner was something along the lines of “please don’t let those numpties try that again” and hopefully said owner won’t.

 

[The Irish Draft 2022]

I think a lot these horses shouldn’t have been in the competition the horse the German riding was lame with a very big problem with it tendons and has to be retired. So the whole competition was a disaster.

 

[tristar]

I do think this is where a long sighted view is needed. MP for sure needs a shake up. However the social contract related to horse sport is also getting more and more fragile. Though there are a few appalling articles badly researched by people wanting horse sports removed...there are also points made in them....for instance around the fact that circuses were once acceptable...that we shouldn't ignore.

Horse sport will prob go....and also horse riding. The latter I hope not in my lifetime

no never, sport in its bad forms yes, abuse hopefully, a return to traditional long format methods of training horses over years and no immature horses thrust like sad projectiles onto social media, no racehorses that look like blxxdy foals being ridden, just the sudden realization that we knew all along what was wrong, and with advances in vet science the knowledge of centuries and being forced to pull our socks take equestrianism to a new level of respect and appreciation of the part horses play in our lives

 

[Equi]

I think the standard UK expects for the riders is much higher though than in some of the other countries. I also think they train much more for it as well

That logic can’t work for Germany though, arguably some of the best riders in the world.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

https://www.facebook.com/125751084126271/posts/4537888026245866

If and it is a big IF, that is the same horse, the body language he is displaying in this pic would have me monitoring and checking my own horse's mental and physical wellbeing very carefully indeed. Is that truly the best pic they could come up with to reassure the world that the horse is mentally and physically OK after his traumatic experience with two shite riders and two shite trainers and one very, very shite owner?

Would you arrange to go and see this horse if it was being offered for sale based on those two pics? I know I wouldn't, I would be scrolling past pretty damn quick !

 

[YorkshireLady]

no never, sport in its bad forms yes, abuse hopefully, a return to traditional long format methods of training horses over years and no immature horses thrust like sad projectiles onto social media, no racehorses that look like blxxdy foals being ridden, just the sudden realization that we knew all along what was wrong, and with advances in vet science the knowledge of centuries and being forced to pull our socks take equestrianism to a new level of respect and appreciation of the part horses play in our lives

Of course we all want this abuse free sport etc

However there is already a growing movement against eventing.....I can see how it could become socially unacceptable. I am not saying I want that to be the case.

 

[YorkshireLady]

That logic can’t work for Germany though, arguably some of the best riders in the world.

She has obviously ridden....and performed as well in pentathlon over a long period.,...she was a junior as well

 

[Tiddlypom]

I didn't hear the interview, but David Marlin has posted a transcript of it on his fb page . I was really disheartened to read it

Here we have the Team GB Olympic Gold Medallist in Men's Modern Pentathlon .

Would you let this man anywhere near your horse? What an effing ignorant oik.


5 Live Olympic Breakfast - 08/08/2021 - BBC Sounds

Transcript starts approx. 1h 30min into the programme recording. Produced as faithfully as possible.

CW: I need to bring this up with you as well though, because I guess the sad thing, there it is in the limelight with Team GB great success, two Golds. but the sad thing for the event is this incident in the women’s event wasn’t it, which which saw the...

JC: yeh

CW: …German coach punch the horse, strike the horse with her fist then encouraging her rider to do the same and I know that was being shared a lot on social media. It’s a pretty shocking story to follow wasn’t it? What is your response to that? And the fact that that’s partly what’s got people talking about the event as well?

JC: ………….Obviously it’s never nice to have the negative publicity something like that has made happen, erm……. I think it’s been blown a lot out of context. I think if you actually watch the footage there is no way that what happened is physically hurting the horse. Obviously part of the event is that two people ride each horse and when the Russian girl struggled on that horse it obviously upset the horse and it wasn’t happy going in to be asked to do the course again. But we are given a random horse. We have 20 minutes to sort of get a feel for how it wants to be ridden. And at the end of the day its not the same as the showjumping where the medal will go to a horse and a rider. It’s our medal because we don’t own the horse it’s a random one. And Annika, the German girl, is probably one of the most popular girls in the sport and I think some of the things like death threats and the abuse she’s been getting is absolutely disgusting. She’s gone out she’s the quickest girl in the laser run she knows she just has to get around the riding and she’s guaranteed a Gold medal, erm, and that’s all of our dreams since we were kids, so imagine seeing that slowly slip away because you have someone else who has upset your horse and you know you don’t have the toolset to fix it. It’s.. its… I can’t imagine how… how she’ll get over it. And maybe at that moment maybe maybe like she didn’t handle it perfectly but at the same time no physical harm was done to the horse..

CW: no but as I

JC: and I think a lot of its just over the top

CW: Well I hear what you’re saying but I suppose when you’ve got the coach urging the rider to really hit the horse, really hit was the words they use, I mean that’s hard to defend isn’t it?

JC: yeh. ………………………….. erm. …………. Yeh. I mean when we are riding erm…you have to school the horse and er…I…er.. and I’ve not heard the audio to that part, I saw I saw people talking about striking it with a fist and lets be honest if you think thats hurting a one tonne animal you’re kidding yourself. Er um I can’t say anything about what she said…I do think things have been blown out of proportion.

 

[bonny]

If and it is a big IF, that is the same horse, the body language he is displaying in this pic would have me monitoring and checking my own horse's mental and physical wellbeing very carefully indeed. Is that truly the best pic they could come up with to reassure the world that the horse is mentally and physically OK after his traumatic experience with two shite riders and two shite trainers and one very, very shite owner?

Would you arrange to go and see this horse if it was being offered for sale based on those two pics? I know I wouldn't, I would be scrolling past pretty damn quick !

I read somewhere that he’s 22, if that’s true he looks ok to me

 

[AmyMay]

I read somewhere that he’s 22, if that’s true he looks ok to me

Yes, that has started to appear on fb.

 

[SibeliusMB]

Was it in the welfare thread that folks brought up the "yeah but what about this?" mentality in these issues and how unproductive that is for solving problems? Because somehow defending or distracting from the blatant disregard for equine welfare in MP with riding school mistakes is exactly that. Any riding instructor/school worth their salt isn't allowing beginner riders to go around balancing on their horse's face or slamming them in the back. Does it happen? Yes. Should it? No. New riders should be put in lunge lessons for proper balance, not rushed, and there are other aids (ie. neck straps) to reduce the likelihood of that happening. Proper instructors and horsemen should know to implement these things to reduce the horse's exposure to these problems.

I have absolutely no sympathy for amateur riders who too fond of the whip/spur or refuse to get instruction to improve their garbage riding. They are just as guilty as these MPers. The only difference is the MPers are on a national or international stage while they do it, and bring even more disgrace and public outrage than a local riding club show. Both are completely unacceptable.

Social media, the public's increasing distance from rural lifestyles and ignorance of horse husbandry, and the animal rights groups are all having an effect on how socially unacceptable horse sports are becoming. Everyone should be concerned and seek to do better.

 

[AmyMay]

Interesting if true.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Unfortunately this modern pentathlon debacle could be the flocculation point around which an anti-horse sports purity spiral manifests.

I've just written this sentence and realised it makes no sense but I feel the fact I remembered the word flocculation means I still have to say it.

 

[YorkshireLady]

horse is not 22...there is some reporting he was born in 1989 but Olympic record says 2006

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I read somewhere that he’s 22, if that’s true he looks ok to me

So is my retired mare and I can assure you she looks considerably physically and mentally well and happier than the poor horse in that picture! The only time I have seen her body language and demeanour looking like this is when she was still very poorly physically and mentally when she was recovering from Lyme's disease. Do you really think if this is the best pic they could come up with, then the horse in question must be OK? Surely to God they would have taken a fair few and posted the best? If this is the best then that tells me all I need to know anyway. ?‍

 

[AmyMay]

horse is not 22...there is some reporting he was born in 1989 but Olympic record says 2006

Thanks

 

[Kat]

I'll be honest, I haven't read every reply to this thread but I have been mulling something so apologies if it has been mentioned in the intervening 15 pages I've skipped...
The eventers only showjump circa 1.20/1.25 course on a horse they know well (yes I know they have already done 2 phases). I'd be very interested to see one or 2 of them, as full time equestrians, come in on a borrowed horse and see how they fare. I am sure many of them would do fab but I think it would show that this is a mountainous ask for non-equestrian competitors and unfortunately it is simply luck of the draw if they get an easy horse or an absolute tw... idiot.
In Sydney 2000 the para-riders were competing on borrowed horses - now it has been changed and no one could imagine them being asked to draw horses out of a hat.
Perhaps in future each national federation could be rightly expected to provide an equine for the use of their team members - i appreciate not all competitors can be expected to provide their own horse but a team horse wouldn't be hard to source and ensure it worked for their team.

Ingrid Kilmke has said in a public statement about the MP that she wouldn't/couldn't get on a strange horse and jump a 1.20 course after 20 minutes getting to know them time.

I think that says an awful lot about what a big ask this is.

 

[Burnttoast]

It has been pointed out on SM that the pictures supplied by the UIPM to reassure people that poor Saint Boy still has all his legs, etc., were taken in the winter (no leaves on the deciduous trees...). Hmmm... isn't it summer in Japan about now? Plus he doesn't exactly look in his summer coat. It's all looking increasingly dodgy and shameful.

 

[ester]

I'm amazed that no one had appeared to coach Joe on what to say/not say when it was bound to come up.

 

[Kat]

Interesting if true.

View attachment 77419

It isn't true for Tokyo. They are owned by a riding club, saint boy's owners are mentioned in the update about him on UIPM's Facebook

 

[Kat]

I read somewhere that he’s 22, if that’s true he looks ok to me

He isn't 22, I think he was horse number 22 in the draw and that is where it came from.

 

[milliepops]

he was number 25, so the 22 thing remains a mystery

https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/oly...N_C45A_MPN-------------------HTST--------.pdf

A lot of what is on social media is totally valid but this kind of thing (him being supposedly 22 years old) shows why you have to take some "facts" with a big old pinch of salt.

 

[Annagain]

It isn't true for Tokyo. They are owned by a riding club, saint boy's owners are mentioned in the update about him on UIPM's Facebook

It wasn't true for London either. Someone I know provided a horse for them. She's a very decent national level BS rider and was asked to put a few of her horses forwards for selection. I think she sent three for assessment, only one was chosen as they were looking for those able to cope with strange / less skilful riders. They were all 1.30 horses.

 

[Kat]

he was number 25, so the 22 thing remains a mystery

https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/oly...N_C45A_MPN-------------------HTST--------.pdf

A lot of what is on social media is totally valid but this kind of thing (him being supposedly 22 years old) shows why you have to take some "facts" with a big old pinch of salt.

Lord knows where that came from then!?

 

[PapaverFollis]

To be fair Saint Boy was so tanked on adrenaline when the coach smacked his bum that I doubt he did feel anything. Still not appropriate behaviour. But I have seen people saying that he was punched in the face by the coach and that's not true either.

I honestly don't think the side-swipe punch over a fence was the main welfare issue going on that day and I think the MP authorities will try to scapegoat an errant coach rather than address the issues in the sport head on and holistically.

In case of misunderstanding since we ARE in purity spiral territory, no the coach was not excusable in her actions but focusing on the coach and the rider might detract from the main issue of MP needing at least an attitude overhaul towards the horses.

Taking horses out altogether would solve the problem but I think it could be solved without needing to do that. Whether it will or not. I don't know. Some human backsides need a hefty thump to sort it out though.

 

[SEL]

Ingrid Kilmke has said in a public statement about the MP that she wouldn't/couldn't get on a strange horse and jump a 1.20 course after 20 minutes getting to know them time.

I think that says an awful lot about what a big ask this is.

Has anyone recently done the university competitions? I'm a few decades out of date now (albeit in denial about my age) but I've just checked and you still only get <10 mins to warm up a strange horse before the jumping stage. The jumps are under 1m (although they were 3'6" max in my day) but then the horses were never as talented as the ones they used for MP either. Usually riding school horses of very varying abilities.

I was far from Olympic standard but I was competent enough to take a strange horse around a course of jumps without killing myself or causing it distress. That's not too much to ask for the MP competitors and from what I saw before I turned off I don't think lowering the jumps would make a huge amount of difference because most of them were passengers at best.

 

[Equi]

Yeah tbf the coach punch was not even registered by the horse, but it’s such poor form she and her candidate should have been stopped immediately.

as for the 20min thing, any horse lesson ive taken I take it in good faith that the horse is up for the purpose. In my case that means it’s totally laid back and safe. In a person wanting to pop round the xc that means they need more forward and energetic. But that person will be required to prove they can handle the horse before letting them loose on the xc with the horse. I doubt that takes more than 20mins. 20mins is a cop out. The riders are the issue not the horses or lack of bonding time.

 

[Rowreach]

It has been pointed out on SM that the pictures supplied by the UIPM to reassure people that poor Saint Boy still has all his legs, etc., were taken in the winter (no leaves on the deciduous trees...). Hmmm... isn't it summer in Japan about now? Plus he doesn't exactly look in his summer coat. It's all looking increasingly dodgy and shameful.

I actually compared the pics to check how furry he was in the ring (not furry) compared to the back home pics (furry).