Totilas even has special shoes?!

[charlie76]

Ok, after reading ( trawling) through all this thread I have come to one conclusion - the owners of Totilas, for their own reasons, do not want to turn him out- thats their choice, the horse looks happy, the horse does his job, the horse is a worldbeater, the horse is shiny, the horse has good muscle developement, the horse has a good attitude, the horse is the one of the most sort after stallions in the world- hmmm- can't be doing to much wrong!
Hands up who owns one of the above?

Might not suit everyones needs and ideas but its def working for him!

 

[lexiedhb]

Me me i do!

Oh wait, that was juat in my head!

 

[Jimbol]

Well apart from piaffe, levade and halt i do not believe the horse actually does transfer weight onto the haunches, i believe the horse creates more thrust therefore lightening the forehand but the transfer of weight is an old misconception.

As for whether turnout is detrimental to this? i would say the issues with sterrotypies and colic are of far greater concern.

 

[Nocturnal]

I don't really want to get into the turn out/ no turnout debate TBH, but there is one thing fairly obvious to me that seems not to have been mentioned:

horses are naturally designed to carry most of their weight at the front, what we call on the forehand - it is us who teach them to shift their weight and balance behind and sit them on their hocks, so I can quite easily see how freedom and prolonged turnout can be detrimental to horse's way of going and its musculature.

Yes, I think this is part of it too.

 

[BBP]

Mine is shiny.

Good point made by martlin, hadn't thought of that.

 

[Jimbol]

And on that basis the horse should not move without supervision on risk of him coming onto the forehand!?!?!? If this is what it takes to produce a top dressage horse there is a serious problem.

I think in terms of musculature we perhaps need to think of recovery and relaxation of the muscles as a benefit of being out, although i think the greatest benefit is to the mental wellbeing of the horse.

 

[martlin]

I think it would be nice of you to take note of the word prolonged in my previous post. Also, I have no intention of arguing the point one way or the other, it was merely an observation.

 

[TGM]

Both these factors I already pointed out and have since been called rude, arrogant, a knob and a few other things. I truly wouldn't bother if I were you; none of these lot can agree to disagree because someone has to be right.....

*wanders back off to the sane haven of CR*

Have you heard the saying "It is not what you say but the way that you say it"? I think that applies to your postings on this thread and explains why you got the reactions you did!

 

[Seahorse]

well I hope the owners of Totilas are reading this and start turning him out now.....

 

[martlin]

well I hope the owners of Totilas are reading this and start turning him out now.....

immediately, if not sooner...

 

[charlie76]

Just emailed them to make sure they take immediate action, oh and to make sure he is not wearing boots!

 

[amandap]

And on that basis the horse should not move without supervision on risk of him coming onto the forehand!?!?!? If this is what it takes to produce a top dressage horse there is a serious problem.

I think in terms of musculature we perhaps need to think of recovery and relaxation of the muscles as a benefit of being out, although i think the greatest benefit is to the mental wellbeing of the horse.

Paragraph 1 is I think where some owners/trainers are heading but in all management.

The mental and overall physical wellbeing of the horse is the prime concern of everyone I'm sure. The difficulty comes when we don't agree with what that is and how to achieve it.

For me personally anything that severely restricts a 'normal' lifestyle is something that should be assessed very carefully and we should be asking if we are crossing that line between our wants and the horses needs too much to the detriment of the horse.
Also we all have our own perception of a 'happy' horse, much of it based on our personal experiences and the horsey culture we move in. We become accustomed to seeing a horse one way and other ways seem abnormal to us.

We must try and remember in the middle of all this is a living breathing sentient being that has very different needs from us.

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

Also we all have our own perception of a 'happy' horse, much of it based on our personal experiences and the horsey culture we move in. We become accustomed to seeing a horse one way and other ways seem abnormal to us.

This... if you had grown up in a country where paddocks quite simply do not exist and no horse is turned out, ever, then whether Toto is or isn't turned out wouldn't even cross your mind

ETS general "you", not you personally amandap!

 

[misst]

Ooh can you tell me more about Nevzarov? I know of his aversion to bits and people riding horses (and recent petition to stop all horse sport) but didn't know his training methods include isolation of horses!



My bad. Will ammend.



Forgive me I'm supposed to be doing something else and not on HHO, so I won't take the time to read the link just now. One could argue some more about why muscles appear bulkier when a horse is kept in, but I'll bow out of any more debates on this thread now.

Learnings to date (for the lazy people who don't want to read the whole thread)

1. Totilas has special shoes
2. Totilas doesn't get turnout
3. His bad feet mean he shouldn't be bred from
4. His bad feet are nothing to do with his breeding performance
5. He should have more turnout
6. He shouldn't have any turnout
7. His browband and noseband don't match
8. No.7 is not a major welfare problem as previously claimed
9. This wasn't previously claimed in a serious manner
10. Actually, thinking about it, it is a terrible tragedy
11. The scenario described in no. 5 is a welfare problem
12. The scenario described in no. 6 is a major welfare problem
13. You should say what you mean
14. Things come across differently in the written word
15. Shills has a horse who is allergic to grass.
16. muscles develop better when your horse is kept in a stable
17. muscles develop better when your horse is kept out
18. The longer a thread gets the more likely it is that people make a point already made, and therefore the longer a thread gets the proportion of additional useful material diminisies
19. People STILL won't be told, darn it
20. Anyone who disagrees is an anarchist/fluffy bunny hugger/ cruel and terrible person (delete as appropriate)
21. According to Bodwins law, its only a matter of time before Hitler and the Nazis is mentioned.

excellent - I have just seen this - couldn't have put it better myself

 

[amandap]

This... if you had grown up in a country where paddocks quite simply do not exist and no horse is turned out, ever, then whether Toto is or isn't turned out wouldn't even cross your mind

True. This is why threads like this (despite handbags etc. lol) are good.
I've changed quite a few things I do or don't do after someone asking... 'why'.
Sometimes we do things and don't really know why we do them, it's just done that way and never questioned.

 

[nikkimariet]

Have you heard the saying "It is not what you say but the way that you say it"? I think that applies to your postings on this thread and explains why you got the reactions you did!

No. I didn't say it in any sort of way that warranted the reaction I (and a few others) got.

The term blinkered vision comes to mind with regards to several of the comments made on here. 'Here' being H&H in general. Not just this thread.

 

[Seahorse]

Just emailed them to make sure they take immediate action, oh and to make sure he is not wearing boots!

Or maybe just some overreach boots on so he doesn't pull his front shoe off maybe?

 

[Saucisson]

*Whispers* Ours are boxed 24/7 through the winter with limited turnout in the summer.

*Whispers more quietly* They're the only horses at our quite sizeable yard that get turned out at all

I just went to see them and they haven't been on the Samaritons yet as far as I can see. I might cut the straps off their rugs just to be on the safe side though......

Do you know what? I am absolutely sure that Totilas is fine and is happy when the feed trolley arrives like any other horse.

 

[tallyho!]

*Whispers* Ours are boxed 24/7 through the winter with limited turnout in the summer.

*Whispers more quietly* They're the only horses at our quite sizeable yard that get turned out at all

I just went to see them and they haven't been on the Samaritons yet as far as I can see. I might cut the straps off their rugs just to be on the safe side though......

Do you know what? I am absolutely sure that Totilas is fine and is happy when the feed trolley arrives like any other horse.

Psstt... it's ok, no-one really cares - this has turned out to be a rather good excuse for perfecting handbag flinging techniques..... enjoyed by many!

plus, it's the most interesting thing to happen on HHO for quite some time and frankly I was sick of listening to everyone moan about inanities so this has been a boon!

 

[TGM]

No. I didn't say it in any sort of way that warranted the reaction I (and a few others) got.

The term blinkered vision comes to mind with regards to several of the comments made on here. 'Here' being H&H in general. Not just this thread.

You have to remember that if someone has a different opinion to you and states it, it doesn't mean they are attacking you or 'furiously typing' at you! It is a debate and an exchange of views which can be done in a perfectly civilised manner, but unfortunately debates often go downhill when people start to get a bit personal or the posts become emotionally charged!

 

[Chavhorse]

*Whispers* Ours are boxed 24/7 through the winter with limited turnout in the summer.

*Whispers more quietly* They're the only horses at our quite sizeable yard that get turned out at all

I just went to see them and they haven't been on the Samaritons yet as far as I can see. I might cut the straps off their rugs just to be on the safe side though......

Do you know what? I am absolutely sure that Totilas is fine and is happy when the feed trolley arrives like any other horse.

Oh Blimey its a confessional

OK when I lived in the UK my horses were turned out as much as possible it was what we did.

Then I moved to Cyprus and my horse there was kept in a pipe corral full of sand, exercised for 3 hours a day and fed all his calories in hard feed and his bulk was straw. We used to have visitors come over from the UK and shout at my Greek YO about how cruel it was that these poor horses were fed on straw as it caused colic....I used to get dragged down to explain that things were different here and actually the horses were fine very healthy and fitter than the many overweight horses in the UK.

I then moved to Holland and was on 1 yard with turn out for a max of 1 hour a day, one yard with no turn out at all (but we did have a horse walker, I finally after much searching managed to find a yard that turned out in sand paddocks in winter for as much of the day as possible as long as no storms brewing (flat landscape means that horses, and cattle etc are the first thing that lightening will strike!) and the possibility of 24/7 in summer in grass paddocks. However this yard is very very unusual (especially in the Randstad area I live in).

My Dutch friends think I am a crazy English person as their horses are only ever turned out for a max of an hour a day if at all, in fact some of them never see daylight going from American Barn to indoor school, to lorry to inside competition centre. I gave up the facilities of 2 heated indoor schools, solarium, hydrotherapy pool and fantastic dressage instructors to move to a Western Yard with no indoor because I personally believe that my at the time 4 year old needed to be turned out as much as possible.

One of my friends is horrified that we have group turn out, her horse is only allowed out on his own and then fully booted and only for an absolute max of 15 mins and only if someone sits and watches him at all times,this is someone who is competing at the Dutch equivalent of Medium Dressage.

I think what Saucisson, frodo and I are trying to say is that it is all done differently in other countries, they have been doing it like this for years and see nothing wrong with it. You may not agree with it but that is life.

Sorry I may be being overly reasonable here

 

[Jimbol]

Just because it happens it doesnt make it right. Look how farming is changing now people put ethics into their buying decisions, maybe we should make sure the same progression happens with horses.

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

But Jimbol, in a place like Italy for instance this would just not be possible. At all.

 

[Jimbol]

But Jimbol, in a place like Italy for instance this would just not be possible. At all.

In those cases the decision should be made and all attemts to alleviate the compromise should be made, but when you have a massive estate in Germany i feel you do not have that excuse, or anyone else who has access to turnout.

The discussion really works on the basis that horses are natural grazers, social and designed to be in open spaces. to work on a different basis is essentially against the horses nature, even if it was not the current owners fault that this is the case, the foal is unlikely to be born without the ability to cope with turnout.

 

[welshcobabe]

It did make me think do these horses ever have time out to be horses are they let out in the field for a good old roll. I know they have the best of everthing else but no matter how top class they are they are still a horse at heart.

 

[nikkimariet]

i feel you do not have that excuse

It's not about excusing it. It's about justifying it. It is not something that requires forgiveness and excusing.

You cannot compare the amenities and landscape of one region with another. The UK has a lot of grazing because of our weather, Spain/Portugal has dusty and dry land because it is hot as a badgers bum out there. It's easy for you (plural) to state that turnout is normal; because we have it! Some countries, and some people don't. Some horses don't go out in the field due to their behaviour, or their owners preferences. Accept it. I'm not saying don't disagree - just accept it.

 

[Jimbol]

so the merits cannot be discussed then? the main point is that horses who cannot be turned out should not be that way and the reason they are is because of human intervention. To deprive a horse of turnout simply because of owners preference is in my opinion cruel if that fascility is readily available to you, in the same way intensive farming is cruel.

If you have a horse who cannot be turned out but idealy as an owner you would like this not to be the case you should aim to help the horse rediscover turnout. And has it not occured to people that lack of turnout will dramatically increase the likelyhood of arthritis and gastric ulcers.

 

[xspiralx]

It's not about excusing it. It's about justifying it. It is not something that requires forgiveness and excusing.

You cannot compare the amenities and landscape of one region with another. The UK has a lot of grazing because of our weather, Spain/Portugal has dusty and dry land because it is hot as a badgers bum out there. It's easy for you (plural) to state that turnout is normal; because we have it! Some countries, and some people don't. Some horses don't go out in the field due to their behaviour, or their owners preferences. Accept it. I'm not saying don't disagree - just accept it.

Firstly, nobody has to accept anything they don't agree with. It is a fact that must be acknowledged [like factory farming for example], but nobody has to accept it if they don't think it is right.

Secondly, the climate doesn't really matter. Even if horses cannot really graze outside, the point is having the space for turnout in any capacity. If people can manage to turn horses out in England [a tiny country with a huge population], then it can be managed in other countries.

Horses are all individuals of course, and I don't doubt that there are a few who prefer to be indoors the majority of the time, but I think it is a bit too convenient that this explanation seems to be applied to the majority of top dressage horses. If one is going to put human ambition above equine welfare, then at least call a spade a spade instead of trying to argue that it is somehow unavoidable or actually better for the horse.

 

[Nocturnal]

I'd be interested in hearing from FrodoBeutlin whether she's observed a higher rate of arthritis and gastric ulcers on the yards with little or no turnout where she lives, in comparison to yards with ample turnout...?

 

[mrdarcy]

Firstly, nobody has to accept anything they don't agree with. It is a fact that must be acknowledged [like factory farming for example], but nobody has to accept it if they don't think it is right.

Secondly, the climate doesn't really matter. Even if horses cannot really graze outside, the point is having the space for turnout in any capacity. If people can manage to turn horses out in England [a tiny country with a huge population], then it can be managed in other countries.

Horses are all individuals of course, and I don't doubt that there are a few who prefer to be indoors the majority of the time, but I think it is a bit too convenient that this explanation seems to be applied to the majority of top dressage horses. If one is going to put human ambition above equine welfare, then at least call a spade a spade instead of trying to argue that it is somehow unavoidable or actually better for the horse.

Haven't read the whole thread as it's too depressing but this is a great great post!