Ugly Dressage

[equinerebel]

The non horsey public aren’t generally okay with seeing a “little” stress in an animal. It tends to be a zero tolerance space. They don’t know or care if that stress is carefully managed, short lived, the nature of that horse or worth it because the rider wants to win and it’s fine cos they let them out in a field for a few hours a day.

If the public knew half of what it takes to get horses to that level and keep them there, I doubt we’d see equestrian sports at the Olympics. I’m increasingly surprised it’s still hanging on in there. You don’t see any other animal sports at that level. Why is it okay for horses? I don’t know.

 

[Time for Tea]

We can alleviate the natural stresses for horses. Should we instead replace them with others so that we can have fun or win prizes? You'll be able to tell that I am currently very, very conflicted about our right to impact these wonderful animals lives negatively, for our fun.

Why don't we give elephant rides in zoos any more? What harm did it do?
.

I think it’s a question of degree, and it probably was for the elephant too.

As far as I can tell, my ponies like being ridden and like having a job. They thoroughly enjoy their hacks and express all sorts of opinions during same, with bright eyes, ears pricked forward, cheerful. They don’t really want to school but they settle down and do try. They seem to enjoy the pattern of obstacles in showjumping. They like going out to a competition. They have variety. But it is all very low key, and we are pleased whatever they do really, we just enjoy taking them out and so they do enjoy it too, because there is no pressure. We are not super competitive, But we like competitions because it is a nice day out with the ponies, doing something different. We like them to go well, of course.
Perhaps I will conduct a test of some sort to see if they wish to be exercised or would rather eat grass. I’ll let you know the results!

 

[copper72]

Reading these posts though you would assume ridden, competing horses feel stress at what they're being asked to do.
Maybe they do - but is it necessarily bad and un-natural?
Horses living a natural life in the wild must feel plenty of stress - where to find available food, water, is that lion or wild dog going to eat me, how do I get across that canyon, where can I find a mate.....
Is 10 mins of stress in an arena really that awful?

I think the point here is "natural" versus unnatural.

 

[Time for Tea]

The non horsey public aren’t generally okay with seeing a “little” stress in an animal. It tends to be a zero tolerance space. They don’t know or care if that stress is carefully managed, short lived, the nature of that horse or worth it because the rider wants to win and it’s fine cos they let them out in a field for a few hours a day.

If the public knew half of what it takes to get horses to that level and keep them there, I doubt we’d see equestrian sports at the Olympics. I’m increasingly surprised it’s still hanging on in there. You don’t see any other animal sports at that level. Why is it okay for horses? I don’t know.

I think it’s because historically they were a beast of burden, to be used for mankind’s purposes, and that attitude is still there, if in the background

 

[Goldenstar]

we have a new classical-style trainer coming to the yard, he said he's never been busier. he can't get over the amount of new people contacting him for lesson, before that he said it was a niche group of people that were interested. I wonder will that have an impact down the line?

If it’s any like the one I tried I doubt it , I was so disappointed.

 

[coblets]

The non horsey public aren’t generally okay with seeing a “little” stress in an animal. It tends to be a zero tolerance space. They don’t know or care if that stress is carefully managed, short lived, the nature of that horse or worth it because the rider wants to win and it’s fine cos they let them out in a field for a few hours a day.

If the public knew half of what it takes to get horses to that level and keep them there, I doubt we’d see equestrian sports at the Olympics. I’m increasingly surprised it’s still hanging on in there. You don’t see any other animal sports at that level. Why is it okay for horses? I don’t know.

which is why there are so many poorly trained dogs out there, because people aren’t prepared to put them through even a little stress.

The general public’s opinion isn’t the end-all. Sometimes things need some knowledge to understand. Sheering sheep looks horrid for the sheep and often people get upset about it but that’s why we have to educate the reasons for it needing to happen so we don’t end up with PETA trying to ban it. Competing isn’t a requirement but the same thing applies. The whole world cannot be tailored for the untrained audience to see it as acceptable. If you look at YT, you see people saying it’s cruel to train a border collie to do obedience or agility or dance routines because you’re depriving it of free food by clicker training it. They don’t realise it would be far crueler to not train a border collie and use its mind. Imagine people stopped working their collies because some untrained general public people thought it looks bad!

 

[coblets]

I don’t think Imhotep is in his field right now thinking “I can’t wait to go back to Olympia. That was the highlight of my year.” but I also think he’s probably far more content than Everdale right now who I doubt ever gets turn out, like the other Van Olst horses. There are shades of grey to this discussion.

 

[blitznbobs]

I live in the middle of the moors. Each day I walk through, ride through or drive around these ponies on the moor. They have a far less stressful life than the ones we are discussing on here. Perhaps the difference is these semi ferals have only the stress of being a horse. ie the natural things a horse has to do ie find food, water, mate, give birth etc.
The other stress ie high level competitions to win prizes for their owners is a whole different stress ball game.

I wonder if the experiment has ever been done … difficult cos you can’t measure cortisol levels in the wild horse easily without stressing them more… but we can’t know for certain which they find more stressful… not finding food for 3 days with a painful foot vs being in the arena for an hour or so… or being on a wagon being transported - anywhere… or having food restricted on a sand type surface/ grading muzzle on because they are too fat… I think we anthropomorphise way too much but I’d be interested in any objective studies on the subject.

 

[Dave's Mam]

I wonder if the experiment has ever been done … difficult cos you can’t measure cortisol levels in the wild horse easily without stressing them more… but we can’t know for certain which they find more stressful… not finding food for 3 days with a painful foot vs being in the arena for an hour or so… or being on a wagon being transported - anywhere… or having food restricted on a sand type surface/ grading muzzle on because they are too fat… I think we anthropomorphise way too much but I’d be interested in any objective studies on the subject.

Whilst it's not a complete study, but if you look at the free living ponies on Exmoor, they are watched and followed by their guardians & poorly ponies are very rare. Also the the conservation grazing ponies on their various sites.
All I see from their guardians are happy & healthy ponies.
**Yes nature happens sometimes**

**Yes a pony on North Berwick went lame. He was dealt with as humanely as it was possible, RIP Fir.**

 

[Peregrine Falcon]

I would also like to add that the semi-feral stock on the forest is all owned by commoners and there are agisters who oversee the stock. Happy to explain this system to anyone who is interested. The most injuries to them occur due to humans driving cars.

 

[ThreeFurs]

Do you have 'tall poppy' syndrome in the UK? We have it badly here in Australia. For about the last century, we've chopped down our best sports and arts people, to the point where they've had a breakdown, or gone overseas. That has left us with not much to offer, internationally, in either of those spaces.

In Britain you have a remarkable Olympic dressage team. For the past decade they've been snatching gold from under the very noses of the Germans. This is incredible, since the Germans are the world's top dressage country in terms of sheer medals won over time.

Here, we have a somewhat 'second tier' Dressage team, [and becoming more so as some have decided to train with a certain Swedish close associate of Andreas Helgstrand].

We do however, have a pretty fab Eventing team. Now I can't speak for them personally, but I can't imagine Shane Rose or Andrew Hoy have ever been bagged in the way you bag CDJ or CH. It would be virtual treason.

Now, if the three riding disciplines are going to disappear from the Olympics, so be it, but let it be for the right reasons. From increased knowledge of horse welfare, rather than from a bunch of keyboard warriors who couldn't even lead a GP horse to a field let alone ride it.

My point being, cut the poppies down by all means, but do it for informed reasons, not simply because they are 'there' and they are tall, and because social media makes it so easy.

ps: yes I do think its possible for any horse owner to pick cruelty and stress in a still or moving image, but is it possible for same said person to pick up the nuances of what's going with a horse like Imhotep, or Everdale in a GP test? No. probably not. I think you do need further knowledge, experience and information to do that.

Hey, shoot me.

 

[blitznbobs]

Whilst it's not a complete study, but if you look at the free living ponies on Exmoor, they are watched and followed by their guardians & poorly ponies are very rare. Also the the conservation grazing ponies on their various sites.
All I see from their guardians are happy & healthy ponies.
**Yes nature happens sometimes**

**Yes a pony on North Berwick went lame. He was dealt with as humanely as it was possible, RIP Fir.**

But domesticated horses live longer than none domesticated ones so there is something not quite true about that … if they don’t get sick why are they dying younger? I also have read several other studies by farriers about feet and lameness which looked at 5 different groups of wild horses throughout the world and showed that most wild horses in the world are not sound… indeed the “ normal” state for a horse is lame… everyone writing these studies has an agenda and I’m not saying they are with out bias but it seems odd when studies are so diametrically opposed…

 

[eahotson]

Do you have 'tall poppy' syndrome in the UK? We have it badly here in Australia. For about the last century, we've chopped down our best sports and arts people, to the point where they've had a breakdown, or gone overseas. That has left us with not much to offer, internationally, in either of those spaces.

In Britain you have a remarkable Olympic dressage team. For the past decade they've been snatching gold from under the very noses of the Germans. This is incredible, since the Germans are the world's top dressage country in terms of sheer medals won over time.

Here, we have a somewhat 'second tier' Dressage team, [and becoming more so as some have decided to train with a certain Swedish close associate of Andreas Helgstrand].

We do however, have a pretty fab Eventing team. Now I can't speak for them personally, but I can't imagine Shane Rose or Andrew Hoy have ever been bagged in the way you bag CDJ or CH. It would be virtual treason.

Now, if the three riding disciplines are going to disappear from the Olympics, so be it, but let it be for the right reasons. From increased knowledge of horse welfare, rather than from a bunch of keyboard warriors who couldn't even lead a GP horse to a field let alone ride it.

My point being, cut the poppies down by all means, but do it for informed reasons, not simply because they are 'there' and they are tall, and because social media makes it so easy.

ps: yes I do think its possible for any horse owner to pick cruelty and stress in a still or moving image, but is it possible for same said person to pick up the nuances of what's going with a horse like Imhotep, or Everdale in a GP test? No. probably not. I think you do need further knowledge, experience and information to do that.

Hey, shoot me.

To be honest on a personal level it's not just the British riders it is top level dressage from anywhere.

 

[equinerebel]

which is why there are so many poorly trained dogs out there, because people aren’t prepared to put them through even a little stress.

The general public’s opinion isn’t the end-all. Sometimes things need some knowledge to understand. Sheering sheep looks horrid for the sheep and often people get upset about it but that’s why we have to educate the reasons for it needing to happen so we don’t end up with PETA trying to ban it. Competing isn’t a requirement but the same thing applies. The whole world cannot be tailored for the untrained audience to see it as acceptable. If you look at YT, you see people saying it’s cruel to train a border collie to do obedience or agility or dance routines because you’re depriving it of free food by clicker training it. They don’t realise it would be far crueler to not train a border collie and use its mind. Imagine people stopped working their collies because some untrained general public people thought it looks bad!

Training a dog to behave well and safely in public isn’t the same as the life of an elite sport horse. I also don’t think general leisure horses, if kept and trained well, is the same as that of an elite sport horse. I am talking about the sheer extreme end of it, where the horse exists purely for sport and is shipped all over the world to win competitions.

And because I know someone will say it, obviously there’s a lot of terrible horsemanship at the lower levels but that’s not what I’m talking about right now.

Most of us don’t earn money from our horses. I think it becomes very different when you do.

Ps - I agree the public are often ill informed, but they are the ones who hold the most influence.

 

[little_critter]

I think it’s a question of degree, and it probably was for the elephant too.

As far as I can tell, my ponies like being ridden and like having a job. They thoroughly enjoy their hacks and express all sorts of opinions during same, with bright eyes, ears pricked forward, cheerful. They don’t really want to school but they settle down and do try. They seem to enjoy the pattern of obstacles in showjumping. They like going out to a competition. They have variety. But it is all very low key, and we are pleased whatever they do really, we just enjoy taking them out and so they do enjoy it too, because there is no pressure. We are not super competitive, But we like competitions because it is a nice day out with the ponies, doing something different. We like them to go well, of course.
Perhaps I will conduct a test of some sort to see if they wish to be exercised or would rather eat grass. I’ll let you know the results!

My YO might be about to find out, she has just bought a set of those buttons that you can programme to say “food” or “play” or “work”. She trains by +R and her horses are used to being trained to touch objects, stand on podiums etc.
It will be interesting to see what they ‘say’

And just to add (and I know this will sound woo-woo). I think my horse does enjoy work, particularly some aspects.
Some months back I was doing an in hand training session, I was happy with the session and was just finishing up when it felt to me (yes, it’s nuts) that my horse wanted to show me his new favourite move. I had had no intention of working on that move that day but it felt to me like he’d asked to have a go at it. So we did a couple, he looked very happy and I rewarded him.

 

[littleshetland]

I'ma bit late coming to this thread, so apologies if I'm off on a bit of tangent here, but I'm fortunate enough to own a rather lovely PRE and my interest is dressage. I train with a GP rider and Im not competitive anymore, I just train for the sheer joy of it. Horse is a bit of a grumpy bugger even tho he's extremely biddable and well behaved, but the only time his eye really softens and he looks really happy is when he sees his tack coming towards him....he just loves to work, He enjoys a hack, he enjoys his daily turnout, but he really enjoys his dressage.

 

[paddy555]

I would also like to add that the semi-feral stock on the forest is all owned by commoners and there are agisters who oversee the stock. Happy to explain this system to anyone who is interested. The most injuries to them occur due to humans driving cars.

I suspect that we have far more pony injuries on Dartmoor due to traffic, too fast and ponies interacting with a hazard a human has put there. Recently we had to ring the welfare officer (who contacts the farmers etc and get problems sorted) about a pony who had half jumped a pig wire fence. Years ago we cut a stallion out of a fence. All were OK but nothing to do with living as a feral.

 

[sbloom]

I think that with the freestyle, it would really help if they bumped up some of the marks for artistry and expression.

Or perhaps harmony, purity of gaits and the rider should be given much more focus/points.

Horse ‘sport’ has always been for the wealthy.

With regards to stress, it depends on to what level and how often they display that stress. I also want to caveat this with, yes, there are combinations that I find unacceptable.

Everyone, and I think everything (animals included) face stress whilst learning. Provided that stress reduces, like Imhotep’s seems to be doing, I don’t have an issue with animals displaying some stress. I don’t think an unhorsey audience would struggle to understand the concept either.

Now, horses that are incredibly stressed all the time are very obviously a different matter.

I think we have polarisation, the top of the sport of getting more expensive, the bottom, in many ways, has become cheaper, relative to how we now view correct equine management eg a well fitting saddle, good vet care etc.

As for stress, I'm slightly surprised noone has mentioned the 24 signs of pain, I'd hazard a guess that many many horses would show the threshold 8 or more signs of pain. This is not acceptable stress imo, not for our own ends.

If you don't like "modern" dressage no one is holding a gun to your head to make you watch it, tension in horses is pretty natural, if you don't like it, don't ride horses, if you do want to ride horses then learn to deal with it and help your horse to deal with it

Should we just stop watching? Really? The "stress" comes from.the way they are ridden, not just the external factors at competition. And we could get into the ethics of long distance travel, especially flying.

It's a big money game and has not only led to stress for these animals but it's becoming apparent that their bodies are paying. So many horses being bred with defects in the name of elasticity and athleticism.

Truly watch top.pevel.dressage with an eye to posture and movement, are these horses bouncing on their front legs, actually pushing up, and with pure paces? Or do so many of them not only look tense, short in the neck, bouncing croups etc, but are also, as mentioned by others, on the forehand, with their bodies rolling over their front legs, feet still grounded under the rider with the lower leg so often taking the strain?

 

[shortstuff99]

Imhotep is not blessed with a good neck what he has is an amazing rhythm that carries him through he can collect and is clearly stronger than the last time I watched him.
I don’t see undesirable tension in Imhotep to me he looks confident more so because he is now stronger , I assume is what people mean by tension is stress .
He is of course in considerable muscle tension to maintain that degree of collection .
Everdale I can of course see that Everdale is an extremely handsome horse but for me he misses that bulgy stallion neck and the BTV spoils the whole look .
Disclaimer, they all ride much better than I do and all the horses at that level are amazing individuals.

Imhotep is quite often BTV too which gets over emphasized by his poor neck conformation. Also there are moments of incorrect tension in his neck in some moves that spoils the picture for me.

I know there needs to be tension to perform but some of it tips into the incorrect for me. I guess for some of the judges too as he didn't score 100%.

 

[paddy555]

I think we anthropomorphise way too much

that's exactly what you are doing. Humans cope with the stress of a flight halfway around the world to get to the Olympics and then all the atmosphere etc etc so horses should equally. We cope with having tight clothing on for a while because we understand the reasoning. So therefore it doesn't matter if we tie the horses head down, put tight nosebands on, harsh bits etc etc. It too will understand and not find it stressful.

But domesticated horses live longer than none domesticated ones so there is something not quite true about that … if they don’t get sick why are they dying younger? I also have read several other studies by farriers about feet and lameness which looked at 5 different groups of wild horses throughout the world and showed that most wild horses in the world are not sound… indeed the “ normal” state for a horse is lame… everyone writing these studies has an agenda and I’m not saying they are with out bias but it seems odd when studies are so diametrically opposed…

everyone has an agenda. Do what you want with the horse which you can justify to yourself so it can keep on winning and boost your ego.

Do domesticated horses live longer? who knows. I am always very upset with myself if one of mine is PTS before 20. However there are an awful lot PTS a lot earlier due to physically breaking down due to work, let alone the mental wrecks.

Is living longer in a stable on 6 months box rest worse than your 3 days earlier with a painful foot. That 6 months to get the horse sound so it can go out and do it again is no life for the horse.

Don't even go there with shod feet. Any comparison is laughable. The ferals here get onto the roads and get driven in front of cars at a trot. I wonder how many competition horses we could take the shoes off and do that with?

studies are fine. Nothing definite has be proven so lets hide behind the obvious commonsense and pretend there is nothing to prove we are damaging horses mentally and physically

My horse was n vet hospital a few years ago. I spent a lot of time with him looking out at the central aisle as horse after horse hobbled up it for their exams very very lame. Human activity had caused most of that.

 

[Goldenstar]

Imhotep is quite often BTV too which gets over emphasized by his poor neck conformation. Also there are moments of incorrect tension in his neck in some moves that spoils the picture for me.

I know there needs to be tension to perform but some of it tips into the incorrect for me. I guess for some of the judges too as he didn't score 100%.

Of course some of it is incorrect no horse is or has ever been completely correct in its way of going .
Dressage is a invented sport , all sports are invented now i think about it, where people decided what’s desirable for lots of reasons principally what made horses easy to control in military situations .

 

[coblets]

Training a dog to behave well and safely in public isn’t the same as the life of an elite sport horse. I also don’t think general leisure horses, if kept and trained well, is the same as that of an elite sport horse. I am talking about the sheer extreme end of it, where the horse exists purely for sport and is shipped all over the world to win competitions.

And because I know someone will say it, obviously there’s a lot of terrible horsemanship at the lower levels but that’s not what I’m talking about right now.

Most of us don’t earn money from our horses. I think it becomes very different when you do.

Ps - I agree the public are often ill informed, but they are the ones who hold the most influence.

My post was about dog sport, not teaching a dog to walk on the lead.

The public do not care as much as you think. Vocal minority. Snoop Dog watching dressage saw a horse crip walking and not a horse so stressed that the sport should be banned.

that's exactly what you are doing. Humans cope with the stress of a flight halfway around the world to get to the Olympics and then all the atmosphere etc etc so horses should equally. We cope with having tight clothing on for a while because we understand the reasoning. So therefore it doesn't matter if we tie the horses head down, put tight nosebands on, harsh bits etc etc. It too will understand and not find it stressful.

Were you there after the horses were unloaded to know if they were stressed by the journey?

 

[paddy555]

Were you there after the horses were unloaded to know if they were stressed by the journey?

and your proof that they didn't suffer stress is?????

 

[Goldenstar]

I have never heard anyone ever say that because humans sometimes wear tight clothes it’s ok to use an uncomfortable noseband.

 

[eahotson]

which is why there are so many poorly trained dogs out there, because people aren’t prepared to put them through even a little stress.

The general public’s opinion isn’t the end-all. Sometimes things need some knowledge to understand. Sheering sheep looks horrid for the sheep and often people get upset about it but that’s why we have to educate the reasons for it needing to happen so we don’t end up with PETA trying to ban it. Competing isn’t a requirement but the same thing applies. The whole world cannot be tailored for the untrained audience to see it as acceptable. If you look at YT, you see people saying it’s cruel to train a border collie to do obedience or agility or dance routines because you’re depriving it of free food by clicker training it. They don’t realise it would be far crueler to not train a border collie and use its mind. Imagine people stopped working their collies because some untrained general public people thought it looks bad!

Pammy Hutton said some years ago now that Mr and Mrs. Bloggs may not understand the finner points of dressage but they do know animal cruelty when they see it.

 

[paddy555]

I have never heard anyone ever say that because humans sometimes wear tight clothes it’s ok to use an uncomfortable noseband.

possibly you have misunderstood the concept that I was trying to put across.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have the same concerns about dog sport as I do about horse sports .

 

[Goldenstar]

possibly you have misunderstood the concept that I was trying to put across.

Clearly perhaps you would expand .

 

[paddy555]

Clearly perhaps you would expand .

well if a human wants to excel in their chosen very high level sport then they accept that to achieve their dreams they are going to have to do a lot of training some of which is going to be painful as they push their bodies in the gym, with weights, with very intense exercise etc. They will end up with injuries due to their dedication to their sport. Yes, some of that may involve uncomfortable clothing and many other things. Discomfort, pain but well worth it for their ego and the glory of winning.

Their choice.

And the horse's choice to put up with this sort of thing to achieve the rider's goal is??

the horse has no such goal. His aims are food, water, his mates,

I find it impossible to look at some of these dressage horses with their tack and not to feel they are suffering discomfort for their rider's aims. Does he really understand our human reasoning. Probably not, he certainly doesn't have a choice.

If we end up with injuries due to our dedication to our sport that is a risk we chose to take.

I suppose it is if you view the horse as your property to do what you want with and get another if it gets broken. That's OK for me with my bike or my car. Just not with an animal.

 

[ycbm]

Were you there after the horses were unloaded to know if they were stressed by the journey?

Land or Air Travel for Horses: How Stressful Is It? - Kentucky Equine Research

Despite appearing to be calm throughout the flight, the horses indicated by their elevated heart rates that they felt a higher level of stress than when they were resting in stalls.

ker.com

Small number but a good start. All travel caused raised heart levels, plane travel worse. In an animal programmed for flight, the raised heart beat is preparatory to flight, to feed the muscles more oxygen, and if the horse then cannot flee I think we can safely assume that's going to be stressful.

Together with climate charge, I find the idea of flying horses anywhere to compete and come home again pretty indefensible.
.