Updated BHS advice on Covid 19

[Goldenstar]

We have brains we must use them .
I can see Yoers having a difficult time with some clients but they will have to be proactive and manage it.
I foresee difficulties for sensible people on badly managed yards where people are used to doing their own thing .

 

[ycbm]

Surely if anyone is waiting for a trainer they know what time to be at the gate to open it?


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[Leandy]

They can stand back while the person being trained opens and shuts the gates. And the mounting block can be sorted. This isn't rocket science to allow trainers to train safely and pay their mortgages.

Agree, it is of course beholden on the trainers to be safe, so they should be taking measures to protect both themselves and their clients also. So proper social distancing and hygiene for themselves and then they don't rely too much on each yard being squeaky clean. Keep a distance, in the open air, wash hands and clothes regularly, don't work if ill and risk should be minimal. I'm hopeful that Sport England will be constructive in their advice as they should have an eye on the promotion of sport and support for coaches and trainers as well as protecting the public. Hopefully they will have a balanced and sensible view and emphasise what is possible rather than focus on the negative. We can but see.

 

[milliepops]

Biggest issue I can see with teaching is if your client needs first aid. This is what concerns me about (hopefully) getting pony club going again too, how to provide first aid safely.

yeah I can see that being an issue for something more organised.
for those of us who would be wanting private lessons I think it's less of a concern, I'm riding mine most days anyway so there's no additional risk to having a trainer there with me (actually it's probably safer because both of my horses are better with a person around to defuse the scary-hedge vibes)

 

[Goldenstar]

We won’t be doing jumping for a while .

 

[criso]

The yard manager saw no reason for any changes, she would be one to close a gate if you left it open and the yard owner, not horsey, lives on site, in his eighties, has been letting all the neighbours bring rubbish to go on the bonfire. Local council has stopped collecting garden waste and with more time at home, lots of people doing gardening. So a constant stream of people in and out the front and back gates to dispose of rubbish, sometime they even borrow the yard wheelbarrows which are bigger than the small garden ones.

 

[Darbs]

To be clear, the issue for most people isnt around the BEF or BHS guidance, as riding has never been banned. It is DEFRA that prohibited the transport of horses unless for urgent veterinary treatment or for welfare reasons, as it is non-essential transport.

The definition of essential transport is the issue for many people wanting to take their horse to lessons or to ride.

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

Biggest issue I can see with teaching is if your client needs first aid. This is what concerns me about (hopefully) getting pony club going again too, how to provide first aid safely. I can see how we might run small rallies with distancing and other measures to avoid transmission, but if someone falls off they need checked over by the first aider. Thing is that in my (very ) long experience with pony club, serious falls are rare, most are little tumbles, maybe a few tears and back on, but how do we manage that without risk to either the member or the first aider?

I'm a first aider, I work in a school usually, and am a nominated first aider at the yard. I completed a refresher course online last week and got some good guidance on how to safely manage this. I would be confident that I would not be putting myself at undue risk providing the first aid kit is well up to date, as well as thinking back on my training that ideally the patient should be doing things such as holding on a dressing etc (difficult I know with little kids). Mostly the guidance on CPR has changed for the moment - you should continue with chest compressions but do not administer rescue breaths.

 

[criso]

Surely if anyone is waiting for a trainer they know what time to be at the gate to open it?


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Personally if it was just me, I would be tacked up and onboard warming up ready to make the most of the lesson. I seem to be alone in my ability to get on outside and close the school gate from horseback. Unless it's really windy when the gate blows about too much and I need someone else. I could leave the yard gate open but the yard manager who is often sitting in her car next to the gate, would close it.

But the main thing to bear in mind is that no one else on the yard is going to even consider these issues as they fall firmly into the rules only apply to other people camp.

 

[JFTDWS]

The risk of transmission via poles is pretty low, assuming they're in an outdoor arena, in daylight, and aren't being touched by lots of people in close succession. The trainer could wear gloves to handle poles if worried about the risk of that (and personally, I would think that unnecessary). Gates can be opened by others, disinfected, or, again, the use of gloves would be sufficient here, if used correctly.

In the event of a fall requiring first aid, it would logical to have some PPE available - masks on the fallen rider and the first aider would dramatically reduce the transmission risk, as would the (correct) use of gloves by the first aider. CPR no longer mandates the use of mouth to mouth - it's acceptable (albeit not ideal) to only provide chest compressions, which would reduce the risk of transmission. Whilst it's a personal decision on the part of the trainer whether they want to get involved in those sorts of measures, it's far from insurmountable in terms of viral transmission risk.

I've never yet met an arena gate I can't do from my horse, or items like mounting blocks in an arena that I can't work around. I certainly don't need other people to help me mount!

 

[criso]

The risk of transmission via poles is pretty low, assuming they're in an outdoor arena, in daylight, and aren't being touched by lots of people in close succession. The trainer could wear gloves to handle poles if worried about the risk of that (and personally, I would think that unnecessary). Gates can be opened by others, disinfected, or, again, the use of gloves would be sufficient here, if used correctly.

Not just for this discussion but I don't understand how the use of gloves protects you unless you are using disposable ones that you would bin after each contact as in hospital. The virus isn't absorbed through the skin.

 

[greenbean10]

Personally if it was just me, I would be tacked up and onboard warming up ready to make the most of the lesson. I seem to be alone in my ability to get on outside and close the school gate from horseback. Unless it's really windy when the gate blows about too much and I need someone else. I could leave the yard gate open but the yard manager who is often sitting in her car next to the gate, would close it.

But the main thing to bear in mind is that no one else on the yard is going to even consider these issues as they fall firmly into the rules only apply to other people camp.

If the yard manager is often just sitting in her car next to the gate can you not just politely ask her to open the gate again when your trainer arrives so that your trainer doesn't have to touch the gate in the middle of a pandemic?! I feel as though this is just such a specific issue to be having and actually most healthy, low-risk trainers would rather be getting back to work than refusing to teach in case the yard gate is shut when they arrive.

Fine if you would rather be tacked up and onboard but surely in this situation it's better that you tack up your horse, leave in its stable, go and open the gate for your trainer when they arrive, and then get on?! This isn't a normal situation and isn't it the case that you might need to slightly adjust what you would normally do in order to have a lesson safely?

Completely understandable if you don't want to but I struggle to see how it can be that difficult for a trainer to arrive at your yard and not have to touch anything.

 

[SEL]

I think a lot depends on the yard environment. I wouldn't have asked a visiting trainer (or any other professional) to come to our yard early on in lock down because none of us had any idea if we'd been exposed and self distancing has meant very different things to different people . It is a small yard though and 7 weeks further on - with no cases in the immediate village - I'd be a lot more comfortable that I wouldn't be exposing either the visitor or anyone on the yard providing sensible measures were taken.

I had an emergency physio for my mare last week. Physio requested that yard was empty apart from the 2 of us and there was a lot of hand washing etc. We arranged a time away from usual turning out / bringing in slots and I warned all the other liveries. No issues. With some planning and sensible precautions I could easily have a trainer there now - but it is easier to organise on a small yard.

I'm pretty high risk due to an underlying health condition and so I'm being careful about where I go. I do think though that the virus isn't going anywhere and we're all going to have to get to a new normal and learn to live with it. I'm OK with a private riding lesson but would be adamant that I'm not travelling into London for work at the moment.

 

[ester]

Not just for this discussion but I don't understand how the use of gloves protects you unless you are using disposable ones that you would bin after each contact as in hospital. The virus isn't absorbed through the skin.

I am sure JFTD did mean disposables.

 

[criso]

If the yard manager is often just sitting in her car next to the gate can you not just politely ask her to open the gate again when your trainer arrives so that your trainer doesn't have to touch the gate in the middle of a pandemic?! I feel as though this is just such a specific issue to be having and actually most healthy, low-risk trainers would rather be getting back to work than refusing to teach in case the yard gate is shut when they arrive.

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The yard manager does not agree with any of the rules so will not comply. She doesn't do change or flexibility for anything and global pandemic is not going to change the way she does things.

And actually we are not really talking about me yet as until I get some more money coming in, I'll probably skip lessons a while longer. We are talking about the other people on the yard who with the yard manager do not believe the rules apply to them.

If they weren't prepared to keep out of the way for an emergency vet who asked only one person around, then it won't apply to a trainer.

 

[criso]

I am sure JFTD did mean disposables.

Just I was talking to someone the other day who was wearing riding gloves who thought they helped while touching their face at regular intervals while talking to me.

 

[milliepops]

sounds like you are surrounded by some pretty badly informed or generally clueless people criso, but there are lots of us on yards who could resume activities safely and within the rules

 

[criso]

sounds like you are surrounded by some pretty badly informed or generally clueless people criso, but there are lots of us on yards who could resume activities safely and within the rules

Agreed but the instructor might be coming straight from ours to yours. If someone works in an unsafe environment they move between that and home. However if your job involves you moving from site to site then you have to think more about what you will do between clients. Our vets have washing facilities in their cars so they can disinfect between clients, instructors may not.

 

[JFTDWS]

Not just for this discussion but I don't understand how the use of gloves protects you unless you are using disposable ones that you would bin after each contact as in hospital. The virus isn't absorbed through the skin.

Er... I thought it was obvious in the context of the statement that I am referring to disposables. That's somewhat what I meant by correct usage.

I'm a molecular microbiologist. I think I'm probably OK on understanding aseptic technique, PPE usage and viral biology

 

[greenbean10]

Agreed but the instructor might be coming straight from ours to yours. If someone works in an unsafe environment they move between that and home. However if your job involves you moving from site to site then you have to think more about what you will do between clients. Our vets have washing facilities in their cars so they can disinfect between clients, instructors may not.

Luckily they won't have to touch anything at my yard as I will have opened the gate for them!

I would expect instructors to regularly wash their hands and wear disposable gloves anyway. I do think most of them will be trying to be safe and understand that if they are travelling to multiple yards in a day that there is far more chance of them picking something up.

 

[catkin]

Agreed but the instructor might be coming straight from ours to yours. If someone works in an unsafe environment they move between that and home. However if your job involves you moving from site to site then you have to think more about what you will do between clients. Our vets have washing facilities in their cars so they can disinfect between clients, instructors may not.

I suspect that particularly after the Equine Flu epidemic last winter many freelance equestrian trainers are rather more familiar with biosecurity measures in general than many in other professions.........and will be able to assess what needs to be done at their clients' premises.

 

[milliepops]

Agreed but the instructor might be coming straight from ours to yours. If someone works in an unsafe environment they move between that and home.

they might be, but if they don't touch anything and we stay 2m+ apart then I would say the risk of cross contamination is minimal even if the previous yard was shonky with their measures.

My husband is a farrier and has been working throughout, I think whoever the travelling professional is they have to take some responsibility for quizzing clients and assessing the risk and measures in place as well as providing their own stuff for washing where necessary. My vets asked me about my set up before visiting earlier in lockdown etc, OH is asking people to pay by bacs and having horses ready for him so they can keep a distance etc.

 

[criso]

Er... I thought it was obvious in the context of the statement that I am referring to disposables. That's somewhat what I meant by correct usage.

I'm a molecular microbiologist. I think I'm probably OK on understanding aseptic technique, PPE usage and viral biology

Unless I know you, there was nothing in your statement to suggest that you were coming from a point of expert knowledge. The people I sometimes meet are not molecular microbiologists and have interpreted use of gloves to mean any old gloves Like the person I was talking to who thought wearing riding gloves all day, in multiple places while touching their face protected them.

 

[JFTDWS]

Unless I know you, there was nothing in your statement to suggest that you were coming from a point of expert knowledge.

Both times I referred to the use of gloves, I specifically referred to correct usage.

To be fair, I have a long posting history and most users do become aware of other posters' backgrounds to some extent and it's generally polite if you're not aware of someone's background, not to presume that they're an idiot without any basis.

 

[criso]

I suspect that particularly after the Equine Flu epidemic last winter many freelance equestrian trainers are rather more familiar with biosecurity measures in general than many in other professions.........and will be able to assess what needs to be done at their clients' premises.

Did you see changes after that, I didn't. Only difference was that some venue implemented the 6 month vaccination rule and lost business as a result. Another venue (also a livery yard) said you should but we're not going to check as we trust you so people went there instead. Probably why I'm a little cynical.

 

[criso]

Both times I referred to the use of gloves, I specifically referred to correct usage.

To be fair, I have a long posting history and most users do become aware of other posters' backgrounds to some extent and it's generally polite if you're not aware of someone's background, not to presume that they're an idiot without any basis.

I didn't mean to offend you, sorry.

However I would not assume that the general public would understand what is meant by the term correct usage even in these times of greater awareness.

 

[JFTDWS]

However I would not assume that the general public would understand what is meant by the term correct usage even in these times of greater awareness.

Well it is reasonable to assume that in an abstract discussion, when someone specifically qualifies glove usage with the concept of "correct" usage, they're probably aware of how gloves can be used incorrectly, and don't need you to idiotsplain that for them.

It would, of course, be reasonable for the BHS to provide guidelines on the correct usage of gloves for any trainers who have willfully avoided all the information that is currently being disseminated about correct usage. Of course there are some people resisting this information, but I'd like to think that the majority of the general public are becoming more aware of biosecurity and correct PPE usage. I think you do the general public a disservice - many of them are not complete fools.

 

[milliepops]

the way I would look at it is this - i can't control what some numpty is doing (like the people who don't use masks or gloves correctly for shopping or whatever) but I can apply my own measures to protect myself as much as possible and avoid ME transmitting the virus inadvertantly. that minimises the consequences that their mistakes will have on me, and it's basically all that any of us can do if we are out and about - as most of us are to some degree (and are being encouraged to be now).

you can also try to explain to people why they are wrong and see if they are receptive. maybe, maybe not.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The issue with ITU this time is that Covid patients are often there for much longer than would normally be expected. As is well reported many of them have multiple issues, it’s not just the lungs affected, it’s the kidneys and other organs as well. It has put a huge physical and mental strain on the ITU staff. The full PPE kit that has to be worn is hot and uncomfortable, which doesn’t help at all on a long shift. Plus they don’t like losing patients at the level that they have, it’s very upsetting for them.

Things have eased up, but the ITU staff are drained from round 1. Let’s hope there’s not a round 2.

ETA I’ve got the gates open/horse tied up/hand washing bucket thing off down to a fine art for the farrier, but yesterday we had a tree surgeon out who we thought was fully on the ball too. We had briefed him exactly on what was available to him on the garden. We had all necessary gates open etc, only to find him later opening gates to the stable area ‘to turn his van round’. ‘I was only opening the gates‘, he said, but there was no need to, and if we hadn’t caught him at it we’d never have known. I disinfected the gates after he’d left.

 

[criso]

JFTDWS I'm really sorry, I really didn't mean to offend you but without knowing your background, I've seen a lot of posts on here that are questionable scientifically.

Even my vet the other day, didn't have gloves on though they specified in the email they sent everyone including the horse handler and I spent ages looking for some to assist her.