Vitamin E supplements recommendations

[Fieldlife]

If isn't my opinion, it's the official RDA.

Of course some horses need more.

It is not the current thinking for best nutrition for a working horse over winter, when wont get vitamin E from fresh grass.

 

[Fieldlife]

see that is where I am getting confused as well.
I also don't understand why ycbm thinks 1000iu tops whereas forage plus think 2000iu and then more on top for harder work.

this is what I understand.
We also know the two most common commercial forms of synthetic and natural vitamin E, the acetate adsorbates, differ in their bioavailability by a factor of two. This means you would have to feed double the quantity of synthetic vitamin E to have the same bioavailable uptake as natural vitamin E.




I don't get this. It's synthetic but that's not really relevant you say. If that is the case why not buy synthetic at half the price. Your comment many moons ago about equimins was that as it was synthetic I would have to feed twice as much. (I didn't because in fact I found a liquid product was superior to a powder one but that is a different issue)

So presumably I would also have to with the FP synthetic vit E.

The bags of FP vit say on the synthetic one that 1 scoop = 2000iu
on the natural one that 1 scoop + 2000iu.

if 2000iu is FP's assessment of the RDA (or even 1000iu if we go by YCBM) then both products supply the RDA.

Then we have the last sentence of the highlighted para above. (also from FP)

Like you Fieldlife I am confused,

I think iU doesnt change whether synthetic or natural. It is the amount of substance in the powder.

But need to feed twice as much if it is synthetic versus natural.

I dont think iU is a measure of how much Vitamin E in a usable form. It is a measure of total vitamin E usable or not in a powder.

 

[nutjob]

However I think it would be reasonable for people to find out accurate info before discrediting a business on here with having the facts.

I am basing my opinion on the information on their own website which is in the public domain on the internet. They have chosen to give 2 different values for the IU of their product. One must be wrong. The address which is the easiest to find is a po box and the phone no's which are most prominent are mobiles and an 0344 number.

We also know the two most common commercial forms of synthetic and natural vitamin E, the acetate adsorbates, differ in their bioavailability by a factor of two. This means you would have to feed double the quantity of synthetic vitamin E to have the same bioavailable uptake as natural vitamin E.

This is what a lot of people understand, including folks like myself who have a biology degree. This company and / or their nutritional expert think that there is a 4 fold difference which it would be helpful if it was explained since their science is different to mainstream science. It would certainly be interesting to see if it has some factual evidence behind it or if they just made it up for marketing purposes.

We are all just debating it because the price looks too good to be true, but if it is true it will save a lot of us quite a substantial amount of money. If it checks out there could be a mass migration away from FP so it could be good news for this company.

 

[ycbm]

It is not the current thinking for best nutrition for a working horse over winter, when wont get vitamin E from fresh grass.

A balancer has to be balanced to the majority of users, it's then up to the owner to tweak for their particular horse. Most of the 50 horses in my yard are either not working at all right now, or barely.
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[Fieldlife]

I am basing my opinion on the information on their own website which is in the public domain on the internet. They have chosen to give 2 different values for the IU of their product. One must be wrong. The address which is the easiest to find is a po box and the phone no's which are most prominent are mobiles and an 0344 number.

View attachment 105493

I dont think one is wrong as written. There are two headings and two purities of vitamin E being advertised. The bottom one is 10 fold more concentrated than the top one. If you got to check out, the bottom product is £18.95 for 950gm, so a fair bit more expensive than the four products above the first heading.

Different point if you can really get 0.95kg of 500, 000 iU / kg natural vitamin E for £18.95

 

[Fieldlife]

A balancer has to be balanced to the majority of users, it's then up to the owner to tweak for their particular horse. Most of the 50 horses in my yard are either not working at all right now, or barely.
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I am not really sure what you are arguing. I wanted to feed 2,000 iU of natural or 4,000 iU of synthetic. I had assumed when FP balancer said provided 2,000iU it was the natural amount. I emailed them and it is not. So only provides 1,000iU which is half as much as I wanted to feed. I wouldnt mind if they said it provided 1,000iU.

I think bringing up different theoretical RDAs isnt helpful. I think the FP labelling is a bit misleading.

 

[catembi]

Re the Horseheath thing. I have met the owner in person back in the days when I was competing as he had a mobile trade stand. I used his feeds when I lived further south. He supplies his vit E to my local tack shop just over a mile away. It looks like yellow sand. I used to use it, but then got concerned re the whole natural/synthetic thing. I have no reason to think that there’s anything wrong with it, except that I couldn’t find intelligible evidence either way.

I saw him at Ashwell Show when I was competing on Catembi so that was 2006 at the latest, so he has been in business for quite a while. Nice chap.

 

[ycbm]

I am not really sure what you are arguing. I wanted to feed 2,000 iU of natural or 4,000 iU of synthetic. I had assumed when FP balancer said provided 2,000iU it was the natural amount. I emailed them and it is not. So only provides 1,000iU which is half as much as I wanted to feed. I wouldnt mind if they said it provided 1,000iU.

I think bringing up different theoretical RDAs isnt helpful. I think the FP labelling is a bit misleading.

I agree the listing should state the usable iu, but when I looked at buying it late last year it was clearly listed as synthetic.
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[criso]

I'll send a message asking about the 2 versions and what they are and confirm the weight of the 'pure' version. I want to ask about local collection options anyway.

 

[criso]

The bags of FP vit say on the synthetic one that 1 scoop = 2000iu
on the natural one that 1 scoop + 2000iu.

if 2000iu is FP's assessment of the RDA (or even 1000iu if we go by YCBM) then both products supply the RDA.

Then we have the last sentence of the highlighted para above. (also from FP)

It's very difficult to work out.

There was a detailed discussion a while back as well about the FP versus PE vitamin e. They appear to be the same compound at the same concentration but according to the details on the packet, deliver different levels of actual vitamin e. That's why some on here prefer the FP but I still wonder if someone had accidentally printed the wrong info and they are exactly the same.

 

[Dexter]

I am basing my opinion on the information on their own website which is in the public domain on the internet. They have chosen to give 2 different values for the IU of their product. One must be wrong. The address which is the easiest to find is a po box and the phone no's which are most prominent are mobiles and an 0344 number.

View attachment 105493



This is what a lot of people understand, including folks like myself who have a biology degree. This company and / or their nutritional expert think that there is a 4 fold difference which it would be helpful if it was explained since their science is different to mainstream science. It would certainly be interesting to see if it has some factual evidence behind it or if they just made it up for marketing purposes.

We are all just debating it because the price looks too good to be true, but if it is true it will save a lot of us quite a substantial amount of money. If it checks out there could be a mass migration away from FP so it could be good news for this company.

They provide a reference to a scientific paper of Pagan et al 1996

This is the only paper I can find, I can access it through work if anyone wants to see it

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._of_growth_rates_of_Thoroughbreds_in_Kentucky

 

[nutjob]

They provide a reference to a scientific paper of Pagan et al 1996

I've looked at it. There is no reference to supplementing with vit e, either natural or synthetic, or any other product that the company is marketing. As far as I can tell the paper is looking at the growth rate of colts and fillies depending on month and location of birth and whether they are weaned at 3 months or 5/6 months.

Hopefully @criso can enlighten us with a response from the company. I've double checked the info from FP and PE and this makes no sense to me either. It looks like one of them has made a mistake in a calculation.

I just noticed that they have today added in the info that the filler is limestone flour, specified the quantity of the pure product that you get for the stated price, and increased the price by nearly 19%.

 

[criso]

And clarified the weight.

All you lot saying it was too cheap pushed the price up before I got a chance to enquire and order. ?

 

[ycbm]

I just noticed that they have today added in the info that the filler is limestone flour, specified the quantity of the pure product that you get fo r the stated price, and increased the price by nearly 19%.

View attachment 105514

He has changed that because people emailed him yesterday and queried it. He replied to me late evening and I'm very impressed with the speed and with his response. I've asked for reassurance on the low price and told him about the Equimins fiasco, and that there are a stack of orders waiting from people here if he can reassure us. I'll report back later what he says.
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[criso]

I clicked through and the postage has changed from £7.50 to £4 so overall the price is about the same.

If you've queried what it is, I won't as well and now the postage is more reasonable, I'm less focused on a pick up alternative.

I'm going to try a test order and will reply back on what it looks like.

 

[ycbm]

After his response today. I'm ordering too.

 

[catembi]

Aaarrrggghhhh I ordered some two days ago from Progressive Earth! Never mind…I can start getting it from the tack shop again if all is well with the HorseHeath one!

 

[ycbm]

After his response today. I'm ordering too.

To add, he has named exactly where he gets it from and how. It's beginning to look like FP and PE are a bit of a ripoff!

 

[criso]

Aaarrrggghhhh I ordered some two days ago from Progressive Earth! Never mind…I can start getting it from the tack shop again if all is well with the HorseHeath one!

From your description, the one from the tack shop may be the lower concentration one with limestone flour added but I'm sure you can ask the tack shop for a specific item if they don't stock the full range.

 

[criso]

To add, he has named exactly where he gets it from and how. It's beginning to look like FP and PE are a bit of a ripoff!

I don't think rip off necessarily but higher overheads and operating solely as an online business with their profits built in. I'll bet the packaging isn't the smart shiny packages that the others come in.

I'm not sure if you have ordered yet but via the paypal option, you don't get a proper confirmation just the paypal one. This and the look and inconsistency of the website would put a lot of people off. It's only that some of us knew of him in real life that we ordered.

I also think that a lot of online stores slightly subsidise the postage and build it into the price. They offer free postage over a certain price but we will pay for that somewhere.

 

[ycbm]

He says hold off a day or two he's awaiting supplies.

about 4 times the price for FP, I would call a ripoff myself.
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[lynz88]

I'm going to keep an eye on how this all develops because I will consider switching as well if it all turns out to be wholly legit and better value!! I've got another month and a half or so of my FP stuff left so will be interested and keeping an eye on this thread.

 

[nutjob]

I'm going to switch as well if it looks good when it arrives and I can get a none EVRI delivery!

 

[criso]

He says hold off a day or two he's awaiting supplies.

about 4 times the price for FP, I would call a ripoff myself.
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But FP don't tell you to wait before ordering.

I've already ordered, did you get an indication if there was any in stock but not enough for a horde of HHOers all descending at once.

Although if he had to order more stock that would explain the price rise

 

[paddy555]

interesting how a businesses fortunes can change almost overnight by nasty comments on the internet. only 2 days ago this company was rubbished as being dodgy based on just about nothing. Now it is the best thing since sliced bread, everyone wants their product and it is in fact the beloved FP and PE who are the bad guys and have been considerably over charging. Perhaps it would be better to find out a bit more info before trying to damage a business.

 

[lynz88]

I don't think anyone is trying to damage a business. We all have a natural tendency to be suspicious and especially after the Equimins fiasco, I think it's fair.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

TBH I never rated FP etc. I always have thought that they were just hyped up expensive brands.

I’ve just bought my VitE but I’ll save the link to the place for next time, if it’s better quality than the one I have bought.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I don't think anyone is trying to damage a business. We all have a natural tendency to be suspicious and especially after the Equimins fiasco, I think it's fair.

Indeed, and there was a factually incorrect claim re natural/synthetic vit E on the website, which should not have survived basic proofreading.

Maybe this supplier is genuine and the better known brands are indeed ripping us off, but after Equimins proved to be untrustworthy I'm going to stick with FP for now. I simply cannot afford to get it wrong with my PSSM mare.

 

[ycbm]

interesting how a businesses fortunes can change almost overnight by nasty comments on the internet. only 2 days ago this company was rubbished as being dodgy based on just about nothing. Now it is the best thing since sliced bread, everyone wants their product and it is in fact the beloved FP and PE who are the bad guys and have been considerably over charging. Perhaps it would be better to find out a bit more info before trying to damage a business.

Paddy you never accepted that Equimins did anything much wrong in supplying synthetic as natural, so I'm not sure I value your opinion about how we have discussed this product. The business will probably have gained massively from being brought to people's attention, as they sell far more than vitamin E and no other product has an identical looking version that is easy to mistake (as Equimins did) which is only half as effective and that 50% error is absolutely critical to PSSM horses.
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[ycbm]

Indeed, and there was a factually incorrect claim re natural/synthetic vit E on the website, which should not have survived basic proofreading.

Maybe this supplier is genuine and the better known brands are indeed ripping us off, but after Equimins proved to be untrustworthy I'm going to stick with FP for now. I simply cannot afford to get it wrong with my PSSM mare.

I'm afraid that over lunch and talking about it to my OH, we have also decided that since Ludo has a known vitamin E myopathy and will lose weight badly at this time of year without enough, I can't risk his health and will also be sticking with FP

I know Sarah Braithwaite personally, and there is no-one who is more committed to horse health than she is. I believe she was the first person to identify the iron/copper issue in horses with UK grazing, and I believe it is almost entirely due to her that more horses are not still suffering from iron overload.
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