Watchdog!

[digitalangel]

Thanks David for you reply.... I appreciate you feel that you ' had no reason to doubt' the sellers email which i saw and read, but it wasnt her horse anymore, it was yours, and therefore your responsibility to verify the age.

I would say there would be a good reason to doubt, since the horses age is unrecorded in the passport.

This is what i mean by taking responsibility. If i was selling you lamb, it would be my responsibility to verify i was indeed selling you lamb, and not mutton dressed as lamb.
The sellers may indeed -tell me- it was lamb but it would still be my responsibility to check - before i sold it to you because otherwise youd be a bit upset with me right?

Your idea of pre-vet checks sounds like a good one on paper, but given that you never checked the age of Loppy when there was doubt ( the passport ) are you not just promising to do what you should have done a responsible and honest dealer?

Also one more question! in the sellers email it says Loppy can rear - is that really the kind of horse you want to sell to a family? What do you do with the ' unsuitable ' horses you buy? How many do you PTS? Having watched the WD program again in slo-mo, Queenie is visiby lame behind when ridden.

Sorry that was more than 1 question! but dealers have always intruiged me!

Shame because in a way i want to champion you - that WD program was utter rubbish!!!

 

[Queenbee]

No and please stop putting words in my mouth. Queenie in my view was not lame leaving us. The lameness showed up when watchdogs vet did a flexion test. X-rays were then taken and something was discovered. I have written to watchdog requesting sight of this vets report and X-rays and will if released post a copy hear. No we had never sold queenie previously. We took her in part exchange from a riding school in Cheshire and paid £800 for her then sold her at £1000.

Regards

David

No, queenie was lame when she was being tried out before she left your yard... It was visible to me, it was visible to others on here... Perhaps the sun was in your eyes?

 

[KellysCobs]

It's easy to get banned here for being forthright to other posters... Not so much on Facebook, that's why we appear more civilised.

Your problems: you have little product knowledge as you say so you should get a vet out to asses all your horses before selling. You should also have people working who do know what they are dealing with, who can spot lameness and who know about good levels of care, pay them, respect them, learn off them, trust them to care for the horses since you can't by your own admission.

You are prepared to sell within hours of getting the horse, you should no matter what the circumstances cover your back by assessing the horse and its character before hand, it is no good to just pass on a sellers word. This is dangerous to the purchaser and your reputation.

You view your horses as products, cash cows only not living things... As long as you do this you will fail. Bottom line you are dealing with living things, with brains, and pasts, unless you recognise this and accommodate for this in your attitude and behaviour you will never get any better. I'm not saying give every horse a sugar cube and matching numnah and exercise boots. I'm saying it is possible to recognise and respect life and make money from it, just treating them as things is what's got you into all the situations you are in.

It is not good enough to say that you are comparable with other dealers... So what? Your practices, standards and knowledge are flawed... So give up or change them. You admit you have limited knowledge, you haven't a clue how to age a horse or spot lameness, yet you go armed with cash to a sales buy horses for reselling with no knowledge of what you are looking at. do you know how ridiculously stupid this is?

The one thing I simply can't understand is why you continue in this line of work when you by your own admission know nothing. Ignorance is not an excuse or defence. Riding is considered an extreme sport for a reason... It's dangerous enough without immoral people like you dealing in dangerous and potentially dangerous animals with no flipping knowledge of what your doing. You are putting people's lives and loved ones lives at risk by doing this. I wonder, if queenie had been purchased and paralysed someone or perhaps killed them... Would you have felt one scrap of remorse?

My lack of knowledge referred to horse imports some ten years ago.

Regards

David

 

[platypus]

I am looking forward to your replies tomorrow david!

Im glad to hear you aknowledge your mistakes and ignorance.

I wouldnt hold your breath waiting for it, hes meant to be answering my questions aswell tomorrow but i highly doubt he will, he only likes answering the easy ones. If you have nothing to hide why are we all waiting till tomorrow for answers?

 

[Queenbee]

Yes your correct I did say if there is doubt we get our vet in. In loppys case we had no reason to doubt what the seller told us the age was and that was 16/17. I have posted a copy of the email from the seller proving this point in a earlier post. I have also posted photos of loppys teeth for opinions of age.

Regards

If someone had opened her mouth and looked there would clearly have been doubt... See cuffys response... To that post of her teeth, it is quite clear that she was closer to the image of 25, moreover seriously bad practice to trust a seller and not ask your own questions and make your own checks. Trot them up, check their teeth, their eyes, check for heat, blah blah blah... I'm sorry David but your getting the same response anyone else would get on here if they came on here with that naive clap trap- only an idiot would not have checked and would have taken the sellers word for it.

 

[digitalangel]

I like to think the best of everyone, platypus. Therefore if David is serious about staying in the horse dealing business, he needs to stop dealing in the low end of the market, up his game, educate himself or employ educated people, or quit the biz. Oh and take responsibility. Bought a bad 'un? PTS or honestly advertise, dont sell it on as something its not.

 

[Moomin1]

Oh dear.

Just watched the programme.

Thick buyers with no common sense and limited knowledge. Typical bad unscrupulous dealer.

All too common.

Just to add - that commentary on the programme was a load of ****

 

[KellysCobs]

Thanks David for you reply.... I appreciate you feel that you ' had no reason to doubt' the sellers email which i saw and read, but it wasnt her horse anymore, it was yours, and therefore your responsibility to verify the age.

I would say there would be a good reason to doubt, since the horses age is unrecorded in the passport.

This is what i mean by taking responsibility. If i was selling you lamb, it would be my responsibility to verify i was indeed selling you lamb, and not mutton dressed as lamb.
The sellers may indeed -tell me- it was lamb but it would still be my responsibility to check - before i sold it to you because otherwise youd be a bit upset with me right?

Your idea of pre-vet checks sounds like a good one on paper, but given that you never checked the age of Loppy when there was doubt ( the passport ) are you not just promising to do what you should have done a responsible and honest dealer?

Also one more question! in the sellers email it says Loppy can rear - is that really the kind of horse you want to sell to a family? What do you do with the ' unsuitable ' horses you buy? How many do you PTS? Having watched the WD program again in slo-mo, Queenie is visiby lame behind when ridden.

Sorry that was more than 1 question! but dealers have always intruiged me!

Shame because in a way i want to champion you - that WD program was utter rubbish!!!

Yes I see your point and fully accept it is my responsibility and with hind sight wish I had. But I didn't so must accept your fairly put criticism. Again regards queenie I will slow the film down and once viewed comment further.

Regards

David.

 

[digitalangel]

i think the worst mistake any buyer can make is not to make sure they have a proper budget for the kind of horse they want. Far too many people think they can buy a complete schoolmaster/gem for 1000 pounds. It happens but its *rare*

I would never buy a 4 year old for anything a child was going to sit on. I do think the buyer there is a bit mad. The owner of the other two i think should have had her transport costs given back, but not stabling / etc.

 

[KellysCobs]

I wouldnt hold your breath waiting for it, hes meant to be answering my questions aswell tomorrow but i highly doubt he will, he only likes answering the easy ones. If you have nothing to hide why are we all waiting till tomorrow for answers?

I did answer your questions briefly stating I would answer fully tomorrow which I will. I've nothing to hide and feel I've addressed openly and honestly some very difficult questions. I've been on this forum since ten this morning so forgive my lack of response.

Regards

 

[Queenbee]

You requested our vets name and I gave it. Now you wish to move the argument from the points this thread was started to debate and talk about to one of forum etiquette and data protection laws. Yes I am prepared to name people as I believe it adds credibility to my comments. You and your well respected un named friend along with the so called lame then sound horse in my view adds nothing and has all the markings of someone with a personal grudge with not much to support said grudge. I feel I have been very respectful and answered your questions despite your very personal offensive comments. But I would now like to focus on other people's posts. I will however answer any further questions you have if supported by fact or other form of supportive evidence. I see little point in just answering personal attacks on me if it serves only that purpose and does not add to or move on this debate.

Regards

David

No David I did not request your vets name, that was someone else on here. Well, it's you whose opened yourself up to a court case by breaching data protection and confidentiality laws. no it doesn't make you look more credible only less trustworthy, maintaining confidentiality even in the face of adversity is what makes a person credible... The only reason one should ever disclose such information is when legally required or with full permission of the named person, not because your trying to make yourself look credible.

 

[digitalangel]

Good luck David, i hope you either up your game or quit the biz coz what youre doing isnt working too well for you right now Tho i am *hugely* and massively impressed with your style on camera and i would have had the thoroughbred too!

Hope you seriously take the advice offered!

 

[KellysCobs]

Bedtime now will be back tomorrow evening to take my beating. Goodnight.

 

[platypus]

I did answer your questions briefly stating I would answer fully tomorrow which I will. I've nothing to hide and feel I've addressed openly and honestly some very difficult questions. I've been on this forum since ten this morning so forgive my lack of response.

Regards

Ok if you do reply to me i will be first in line to apologize.

 

[Queenbee]

My lack of knowledge referred to horse imports some ten years ago.

Regards

David

Then what's your flipping excuse now?!! Ignorance??!! So your now saying you know how to age horse - but still mis sold them,you know how to spot lameness - but still ignored it and sold as sound.


You say your now knowledgable, so what's you excuse for your behaviour?

 

[KellysCobs]

Good luck David, i hope you either up your game or quit the biz coz what youre doing isnt working too well for you right now Tho i am *hugely* and massively impressed with your style on camera and i would have had the thoroughbred too!

Hope you seriously take the advice offered!

I welcome your advise anytime and thank you for your open mind. Willingness to listen and not judge. Only a fool would not take your points on board and while I accept I'm a lot of things I hope you don't think me that. I have great respect for your opinions and hope to stay in touch.

Goodnight xx

 

[Queenbee]

OMG!!!

Digitalangel got kisses

Sorry, couldn't resist

 

[KellysCobs]

Ok if you do reply to me i will be first in line to apologize.

I'm trying to sleep but for some reason can't close my laptop. No apologies needed and yes I will address every point you've raised. Just not now I'm knackered.

Regards

 

[KellysCobs]

OMG!!!

Digitalangel got kisses

Sorry, couldn't resist

Xxxxxxx

 

[digitalangel]

I dont know why - im not in the market to buy!!!!

 

[Shadow the Reindeer]

KellyCobs, you do realize you'll be eaten alive on this forum? 'No prisoners' comes to mind.
I've sat on my hands and watched this thread with interest. What I do point out is, I can see people posting on behalf of victims, but don't see the victims actually post. Perhaps it's time they spoke for themselves without the need of someone doing it for them.
Everyone who buys without vetting, are potentially opening a can of worms for themselves, instead of pointing the finger of blame, they should be questioning their own actions first.

 

[Clippy]

I quite enjoyed the "Watchdog" programme, it was light hearted and interesting to non-horsey people too.

I think the reason Kellys Cobs was covered was because they've crossed paths with David Thomas before and were bound to be suspicious about his tactics due to previous convictions for other trading irregularities.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...conman-jailed-for-pedigree-pet-scam-1-2493146

 

[Shadow the Reindeer]

Rogue traders wouldn't be trading if there wasn't a market for them. People looking for a new horse, car etc, shouldn't make themselves vulnerable in the first place.
Be vigilant, do your homework before purchase.

 

[digitalangel]

I was going to suggest that David perhaps consider a new career as a car salesman, but sadly that didnt work out too well for him either!

 

[Queenbee]

I was going to suggest that David perhaps consider a new career as a car salesman, but sadly that didnt work out too well for him either!

Ha ha, so was I, but then I thought about all the dodgy cars he'd sell to little old grannies who then had crashes when the brakes failed or the steering wheel came off in their hands

 

[kateo]

The Data Protection Act only applies to personal data.

 

[Natch]

Such as names and email adddresses?

 

[kateo]

Perhaps, not always and not the name of a vetinary practice.

 

[Polos Mum]

David - not going to get into what you have or haven't done as I have no personal experience of your activities - I do believe in no smoke without fire tho.

However as you are going to continue to trade why not consider something practical. How about a very large laminated sign on your front gate, and copies around the yard giving some advice to potential purchasers, I thought of the following but I'm sure more experienced people can add more:

1) We strongly recommend you obtain your own independent vetting for any horse/ pony purchased. This will cost c.£200-£400 but will be considerably less than the cost of long term medical issues. We understand c.30% of all horses vetted in the UK fail, hence this is an important step in the purchase process.

2) If you are unwilling to incur transport and upkeep costs we recommend you have the horse vetted before it leaves our yard

3) We recommned you try the horse at least twice on different days, horses by their nature can vary day to day so one viewing is rarely sufficient.

4) We recommend you bring an independent experienced person with you to a viewing to assess both the horse and the horse/ rider combination. The person could you your riding instructor, livery yard manager or similar. We do not know enough about your riding and handling skills to be able to comment on whether a particular horse is suitable for you.

5) We recommend you try the horse in all circumstances that you wish the horse to perform, if you want to hack - please hack the horse, if you want to jump - please jump the horse, critical also is to assess their behaviour when handled on the ground and in the stable.

You could even go as far as writing these into your receipts - so if someone comes and buys after a 10 min ride in the school without a vetting then makes claims against you - you have a signed receipt making it clear that is against your recommendations.

This forum sees many many many people who've bought unsuitable horses (privately and through dealers) that if they followed the above simple advice would have saved themselves lots of heartache and £££s.

 

[Nancykitt]

While I cannot condone most of the practices discussed here, or David's previous business practices, I do feel that what we have here - thanks to Watchdog - is one dealer being treated as if they are the only ones that behave in a dubious manner. Yes, I know that just because there are others that doesn't excuse KC for anything wrong that they might have done. But basically, because that particular business, as opposed to many others, got selected for coverage on Watchdog, they are effectively taking the collective flack for all 'dodgy dealerships' in the country.

Ten years ago I was one of those daft people who went and bought a young cob, good to hack, good in traffic, thinking it would be an ideal horse for me and the family. It was a private sale and I had him vetted. The seller said he was rising 6, the vet didn't argue. Two weeks later the EDT said he was no older than 4. I pursued this and basically all we had was a vet and an EDT who never agreed. From what I know now, the EDT was probably right.
Once the cash had been exchanged and the seller delivered him, she said 'oh, I forgot to tell you, he does have a few bad habits...' To cut to the end of the story, it has all worked out very well in the end and he has been an excellent horse for us, but let's not forget that it's not just dealers that are out of order and it could have gone horribly wrong.

My Connie was effectively a private sale but sold through a yard (thought to be quite prestigious), where he had been on full livery, on behalf of the owners. He was not a cheap horse and sold as a schoolmaster, which he was/is. But the vet told me that at 7 years old his teeth looked like they had never been done, his worming was not up to date and his shoeing was well overdue. Again, a wonderful horse but not treated well at all. We can argue about who was responsible but it didn't make it any better for the horse.

I know some local people who deal in similar horses to KC and I've recently bought a fantastic young pony from them. They offer two weeks trial on a deposit only basis and are very honest about their horses. But they still get horses returned simply because some idiots think you can get a perfectly behaved schoolmaster, suitable for complete beginners, for £1500.

David has bitten the bullet and come on here to try and explain his side of things. The past is done, there's a lot of stuff out in the open and he has certainly been taken to task. It's what happens from now that matters.