Watchdog!

[lisabethm]

I've been watching this thread for the past couple of days and read David's (Kelly's Cobs) responses with interest.
Id now like to add my 'experience' to the forum as well, as my daughter was put in danger on one of the horses tried there.
We went looking for a horse suitable for an adult complete beginner so needed something anyone could ride, was safe, sensible and not likely to buck/rear/bolt etc and were shown a few considered suitable. We asked to try 3 and pointed out that my confident, competent 13 year old, who competes ridden showing and workers at local and county level would be riding to see how she felt on board before said beginner got on board. Now I would have thought that if any of these horses wasn't suitable for a complete beginner I would have then been told sorry but your 13 years old isn't going to be able to ride it.
How wrong I was! I stood horrified as one said 'suitable for a complete beginner' proceeded to take off across the makeshift school, straight through the fence and took off full pelt towards the stables with my daughter trying her hardest to pull up and then on getting no response trying to one rein stop or at least circle to slow it down and hopefully stop, only to to find there was no way was this horse giving up until it was back at the stables. I praised God that day she is well balanced and quick thinking, otherwise there could have been a nasty accident ensued there.

 

[JulesRules]

Talking about a positive experience is not 'eating out' of his hand. I've shared the experience my relative had, so that's all I need to do.

I'm done now, I can see this just getting worse and worse.

Dragon Slayer - my comments were not directed at you. Your comments do have credibility as you are a regular on here, so thanks for sharing.

 

[KellysCobs]

He was a severe bucker. I'm sure that you wouldn't have 'knowingly' sold one of those for a young teenager would you?

Are you able to now elaborate on my comment about purchasing obviously lame horses from the sales and advertising them within days as sound and ready to compete? Do you have a magic cure for this?

May I also ask who your vet is? As they seem to be taking a fair bit of brunt from yourselves when it comes to passing animals as fit and healthy and ageing... Personally I'd be very worried if they were making that sort of errors.

As for the health and conditions of the puppies, I may be so brash again as to suggest that perhaps if one keeps one set of animals that are only there for money purposes that maybe there may be some truth in my so called 'accusations' about the state of the horses too? That were also there for making a quick buck.

Could you provide the name of the horse I purchased knowing it was lame and then selling sound a few days later. If your suggesting I bute horses or use other chemicals to mask lameness then please say so and let's debate this in open forum. I will of course answer questions about my past and have certainly not avoided the subject but I have openly admitted my mistakes and guilt already so would appreciate if we could concentrate on kellyscobs and the present day.

Regards

 

[weebarney]

Prison sentence for puppy traders
Thomas was sentenced to 18mths imprisonment, to run consecutively to an existing 6mths suspended sentence, and Blick was sentenced to 9mths, suspended for 18mths, and 60 hours unpaid community work. The Judge also directed that a Proceeds of Crime Act confiscation investigation be conducted in respect of Thomas.

North Yorkshire County Council Trading Standards and Regulatory Services began investigating the business after complaints were received from consumers about fake pedigree certificates, non-pedigree and sick puppies.
.................................................
(from 2006)A rogue horse dealer who caused misery to consumers has been stopped in his tracks by Doncaster’s Trading Standards Service.
David Thomas, Trading as Horse Imports, Horsebids, Melwood Stables, Happy Hackers, Online-24-Seven and Misterton Carr Stables advertised horses for sale at bargain prices on the internet, in newspapers and in horse magazines.

Horses were advertised with money back guarantees and claims made that they were suitable for novice riders and that their temperaments made them perfect for children. In reality many of the horses were lame, unsafe to be ridden and in some cases had to be put down.

Many buyers who complained to Thomas alleged that instead of refunds, they received abuse and insults, leaving them thousands of pounds out of pocket and faced with the prospect of huge vet bills. Some customers obtained County Court Judgements which were ignored by Thomas.

.......................................................

 

[Queenbee]

Well didn't this thread get interesting!

KC, you were quite clearly lacking in your standards at KC, the fact that trading standards intervened and are working with you only goes to prove this.

With regards to Loppys age... Well spotted by cuffy and I'd agree... Closer to 25 going off the chart and photo.

With regards to woodsy age... There should be no errors in ageing a horse so young... Any competent horse person could do it, pretty much most incompetent ones too... As a dealer, passing the buck is not on, if you are selling a horse it is your responsibility to check, double check and ensure facts are right... That is if you are responsible.

You seem unwilling to do anything other than pass the blame onto previous owners, purchasers and vets... Pathetic.

You are working with trading standards because your hand has been forced and because you were running a seriously bad business which compromised the welfare of animals.

Why shouldn't queenie enjoy a retirement? I have no doubt she was in pain, but with medication this could be controlled to give her a good quality of life however briefly. The fracture, however small was in the joint... Apparently you and your workers can't spot a lame horse either.

I knew you had form, but I had no idea what an extensive list of shoddy dodgy businesses you had in your past and since KC is now 'working with trading standards' it is clear that you have learnt nothing.

It is not the first time you have been talked about on HHO... You will see in early posts that your businesses have a reputation on here... Shall we say, you are synonymous with the term 'barge pole'

If I unwittingly purchased a two year old advertised and sold as a four year old (one questions the legitimacy of the passport) from you... There's no way in hell I'd be sending it back to a yard like yours.

I'm sorry, but coming on here in an attempt to gain support is awful. Maybe you should have been allowed a say... To make up more stories. But quite frankly it's pretty clear that your standards are shocking.

I offer you no respect or sympathy, you deserve none, your bad press and general bad feeling towards you is deserved.

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

I think mr Thomas is playing a blinder here. When confronted with allegations of mis selling horse's he stands his ground and appears reasonable and articulate. Then he comes onto the forum to put his case is a reasonable and articulate manner and seems to have everyone eating out of his hand. Why is it so easy for so many posters to condemn the buyers as stupid and naive and applaud the person behind the sales for being so reasonable and maligned.

Mr David Thomas you are wasted in your current line of business. I'm sure you would have made a most excellent spin doctor on behalf of a political party. one can't help but admire you but I think I'd go elsewhere to buy a horse or puppy.

I haven't done that, I've made no comment about the dealer.

But from what's been reported here, there's a pony who is very young, it hasn't been treated right in it's life so far and now it's owned by people who still aren't doing right by it from what's been posted.

I don't see what moral highground the complaints are coming from.
Find out the pony is 21/2, turn it away for at least six months, restart the whole breaking in from the basics and then you can point fingers.

 

[TBsAndWBs]

Just caught up on iPlayer..
Personally I would not buy from a dealer, I would rather buy privately but that is just personal choice.
I have been riding for 10 years and would never go and view a horse on my own. It's true though, that a vetting is expensive, especially if it fails and you don't buy the horse that money feels wasted.
I would always take either my yard owner, or my trainer, or both with me.
It's not only dealers who mis-sell though. My old loan horse, despite being a very inexperienced 4 year old TB, with value-less tack and no rugs, a tendency to buck and to stop and start, very stubborn, not particularly well bred (bought from travellers), not well broken in to start off with, still had an asking price of £2 000, and was described as an 'all rounder'.

I still fail to see how anyone could think that a 4 year old could be a completely safe kids' horse though. Virtually no four year old is and I feel terrible for those who bought him only to find out he truly was a baby.
That said, my yard owner bought a 4 year old section a gelding for her 4 year old grandson and that has worked out brilliantly. The pony in question, though still green, is very good with the little boy in question. However, they are surrounded by experienced riders who can help out at any moment and the pony is very well behaved for his age.

Overall, I think any novice rider shouldn't be looking at something under 10 years old. Though I've seen some very well behaved and well schooled 7 year olds before they are rare. There's no shame in getting a teenager!

 

[Queenbee]

Well this is a interesting one. After all that you claim you saw you still went on to purchase from me ? Me sat on a 13 hand pony. Hmmm I think the best way to answer this is not enter into a direct tick for tat argument with this poster but to say I have never had a horse cruelty case against me by the courts trading standards or the RSPCA.

Regards

David

Well we all know that the RSPCA are *insert own insult* when it comes to horses, just because you haven't been prosecuted doesn't mean you shouldn't have.

I'm sure your going to come on in a minute spouting remorse for all the mistakes your made?

 

[TrasaM]

Prison sentence for puppy traders
Thomas was sentenced to 18mths imprisonment, to run consecutively to an existing 6mths suspended sentence, and Blick was sentenced to 9mths, suspended for 18mths, and 60 hours unpaid community work. The Judge also directed that a Proceeds of Crime Act confiscation investigation be conducted in respect of Thomas.

North Yorkshire County Council Trading Standards and Regulatory Services began investigating the business after complaints were received from consumers about fake pedigree certificates, non-pedigree and sick puppies.
.................................................
(from 2006)A rogue horse dealer who caused misery to consumers has been stopped in his tracks by Doncaster’s Trading Standards Service.
David Thomas, Trading as Horse Imports, Horsebids, Melwood Stables, Happy Hackers, Online-24-Seven and Misterton Carr Stables advertised horses for sale at bargain prices on the internet, in newspapers and in horse magazines.

Horses were advertised with money back guarantees and claims made that they were suitable for novice riders and that their temperaments made them perfect for children. In reality many of the horses were lame, unsafe to be ridden and in some cases had to be put down.

Many buyers who complained to Thomas alleged that instead of refunds, they received abuse and insults, leaving them thousands of pounds out of pocket and faced with the prospect of huge vet bills. Some customers obtained County Court Judgements which were ignored by Thomas.

.......................................................

Weebarney.. Surely this isn't the lovely reasonable Mr Thomas who's been giving such a great account of himself on here. I'm sure he's just misunderstood

 

[KellysCobs]

Well didn't this thread get interesting!

KC, you were quite clearly lacking in your standards at KC, the fact that trading standards intervened and are working with you only goes to prove this.

With regards to Loppys age... Well spotted by cuffy and I'd agree... Closer to 25 going off the chart and photo.

With regards to woodsy age... There should be no errors in ageing a horse so young... Any competent horse person could do it, pretty much most incompetent ones too... As a dealer, passing the buck is not on, if you are selling a horse it is your responsibility to check, double check and ensure facts are right... That is if you are responsible.

You seem unwilling to do anything other than pass the blame onto previous owners, purchasers and vets... Pathetic.

You are working with trading standards because your hand has been forced and because you were running a seriously bad business which compromised the welfare of animals.

Why shouldn't queenie enjoy a retirement? I have no doubt she was in pain, but with medication this could be controlled to give her a good quality of life however briefly. The fracture, however small was in the joint... Apparently you and your workers can't spot a lame horse either.

I knew you had form, but I had no idea what an extensive list of shoddy dodgy businesses you had in your past and since KC is now 'working with trading standards' it is clear that you have learnt nothing.

It is not the first time you have been talked about on HHO... You will see in early posts that your businesses have a reputation on here... Shall we say, you are synonymous with the term 'barge pole'

If I unwittingly purchased a two year old advertised and sold as a four year old (one questions the legitimacy of the passport) from you... There's no way in hell I'd be sending it back to a yard like yours.

I'm sorry, but coming on here in an attempt to gain support is awful. Maybe you should have been allowed a say... To make up more stories. But quite frankly it's pretty clear that your standards are shocking.

I offer you no respect or sympathy, you deserve none, your bad press and general bad feeling towards you is deserved.

Thank you for your comments. I would correct you on two points only and let the rest stand. We invited trading standards to get involved from day one. We contact them not the other way around. The reason so we didn't make the mistakes of the past and to be fully open and transparent. To add they unlike some have accepted my past and been fantastic in help us move forward. My second point is I am not here for sympathy but to listen to other people's views and defend myself as I wasn't given the opportunity on watchdog.

Regards

David

 

[The wife]

Could you provide the name of the horse I purchased knowing it was lame and then selling sound a few days later. If your suggesting I bute horses or use other chemicals to mask lameness then please say so and let's debate this in open forum. I will of course answer questions about my past and have certainly not avoided the subject but I have openly admitted my mistakes and guilt already so would appreciate if we could concentrate on kellyscobs and the present day.

Regards

No I cannot specify an exact name of any particular horses as from what I had discussed with my friend (who is an extremely well respected horseman In the area so I am very doubtful that this is just hearsay, an elaboration or gossip) - this I may add was commented upon prior to your watchdog investigation.

Again I shall ask would you be able to state the name of your vet used because surely if they are also to blame for so many issues being missed then the general public needs to be aware of this also or perhaps you are just passing the blame along?

 

[Queenbee]

Hi David

I would like to ask;

How long on average is a horse in your hands before being sold on?

What, if any, veterinary attention is given to horses in your care as a matter of routine?

What do you personally do to assess a horse before it is sold?

And what do you do if a horse is returned to you having failed the very for a serious reason?

Many thanks

Ooh, like^^^

Good questions natch

 

[KellysCobs]

No I cannot specify an exact name of any particular horses as from what I had discussed with my friend (who is an extremely well respected horseman In the area so I am very doubtful that this is just hearsay, an elaboration or gossip) - this I may add was commented upon prior to your watchdog investigation.

Again I shall ask would you be able to state the name of your vet used because surely if they are also to blame for so many issues being missed then the general public needs to be aware of this also or perhaps you are just passing the blame along?

That's a shame that you can't name any horse in question as I now can't comment further as I am trying to respond with as much provable fact as possible and not rely on gossip or hearsay. Our vets are moor house equestrian who visit on a regular basis. Could you point to where I have tried to blame them or pass the buck so I can address that comment of yours correctly.

Regards

David

 

[The wife]

It is indeed a shame as last time I visited the sales horses could be documented on site meaning that any age/name/breed could be chosen and used so therefore a name of a particular horse would technically be useless. I best tell my very well respected friend that he is wrong and no horses you bought from there were lame...

I thought that loppy and woody were aged by the vets and surely Queenie would have had a vet visit her at some point and 'missed' her lameness (which I will add was obvious to an experienced eye on video footage of her walking down the road)

 

[Queenbee]

Thank you for your comments. I would correct you on two points only and let the rest stand. We invited trading standards to get involved from day one. We contact them not the other way around. The reason so we didn't make the mistakes of the past and to be fully open and transparent. To add they unlike some have accepted my past and been fantastic in help us move forward. My second point is I am not here for sympathy but to listen to other people's views and defend myself as I wasn't given the opportunity on watchdog.

Regards

David

1. Trading standards wouldn't have exactly stood by and let you get on with it, you were trying to tick boxes so you could continue your farce.

2. No, I think you are really here to try and repair damage done to your business by it being exposed for what it really is... I would say your 'good name' but lets face it, you didn't have one to start.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti dealer, just anti 'your type' of dealer.

I hope this exposure from watchdog ensures that your customers dry up and your business closes. You are not fit to keep a pet rock in my opinion.

 

[KellysCobs]

It is indeed a shame as last time I visited the sales horses could be documented on site meaning that any age/name/breed could be chosen and used so therefore a name of a particular horse would technically be useless. I best tell my very well respected friend that he is wrong and no horses you bought from there were lame...

I thought that loppy and woody were aged by the vets and surely Queenie would have had a vet visit her at some point and 'missed' her lameness (which I will add was obvious to an experienced eye on video footage of her walking down the road)

I'm sure York passport agency we disagree with your comments about them allowing you to age name and sex a horse without any checks but that's for them to answer so won't comment further on this point. Could you ask your well respect friend to comment herself rather than you passing on her comments. I to have very well respected friends but wouldn't rely on there comments unless I was prepared to name them. Regards

 

[KellysCobs]

It is indeed a shame as last time I visited the sales horses could be documented on site meaning that any age/name/breed could be chosen and used so therefore a name of a particular horse would technically be useless. I best tell my very well respected friend that he is wrong and no horses you bought from there were lame...

I thought that loppy and woody were aged by the vets and surely Queenie would have had a vet visit her at some point and 'missed' her lameness (which I will add was obvious to an experienced eye on video footage of her walking down the road)

Sorry missed your point about vets. No our vet never aged or checked loppy or queenie. This was done by watchdogs chosen vet. Hope that clears up your comment about me passing the buck and blaming our vets.

Regards

David

 

[digitalangel]

HI David,

Interesting thread and im still very undecided about you. No doubt you can talk the hind legs off a donkey, and you've certainly got the gift of the gab, i would be really appreciative if you could enlighten me on a couple of questions?

- What, in your mind were your past mistakes and what, in your view did you do wrong with selling horses and puppies?

- I am wondering why you have answered some questions thoroughly, but not others? Some questions, like Natch's for instance, were not answered fully and i for one am very interested in the answers.

- This is a business right? youre not dealing horses because you love them or for the fun of it.. youre trying to make money. I would like to hear from you what your business model is exactly - are you buying in cheap with no known history/little history/owners fibs or word and not looking for yourself at the horse? Or can you honestly hand on heart say you try to match horse to rider to the best of your ability? If so do your prices reflect the time and money you spend on your horses while theyre in your care?

I will say that IMHO, Things can be missed wether you are a private seller or a dealer. For instance, when my boy was vetted the vet swore blind he was at least 20, when he was actually 12. The reason for that is he grinds his teeth. Any horse person worth their salt knows aging unless they agre very young, is an inexact science. Loppy i thought moved beautifully for her age ( whatever it is ) but she did look 'aged' but i dont understand why she is retiring to redwings for the rest of her days as shes clearly capable of doing a job ( light work ) and passed a vetting regardless of age. Ive seen plenty of young horses move a lot worse!!!! As for Queenie, without more infomation than ' broken bones' im not going to comment. As for the two year old sold as a 4 year old, on one hand i think you are responsible and should have looked yourself, but on the other hand youre clearly a bit rubbish because you werent aware of a galvelynes groove.

To be a honest dealer, you have to know what youre selling and take responsbility for that. Dont say that you dont know and turn a blind eye, this is where i think youve landed yourself in hot water.

As for vettings, theyre simply not worth the paper theyre written on - one of mine was a massive vet failure, but jumped at Hickstead last year, and did very well BD. Another one i bought passed a vetting by a RCVS vet and went lame with a collateral ligament issue which was longstanding a week later. Another horse i had failed a vetting with one vet but passed one the very next day with another. People seem to think they ' need ' a vetting for insurance - you dont. Unless its a high value animal likely to keep its worth and you intend not to keep him for life, you can insure a horse for 2500 and still recieve 5000 vets fees cover without *any* vetting and no exclusions taken from the vets cert.

Im not planning on buying any more horses ever, but if i did i wouldnt bother with anything but a 2 star, if that.

 

[Queenbee]

That's a shame that you can't name any horse in question as I now can't comment further as I am trying to respond with as much provable fact as possible and not rely on gossip or hearsay. Our vets are moor house equestrian who visit on a regular basis. Could you point to where I have tried to blame them or pass the buck so I can address that comment of yours correctly.

Regards

David

Well, if I were your vets, I'd be embarrassed to be working with you, seriously scared for my reputation, and really angry you'd just publically named the practice on a forum.

I'm sure HHO admin have warned you about posting such information on a public forum?!! You've posted sellers emails complete with their name and email addresses, and now your vets, also the trading standards letter (which you may have permission to post) as a business you are governed by data protection laws and are obligated to protect and keep confidential any and all such information.

 

[KellysCobs]

1. Trading standards wouldn't have exactly stood by and let you get on with it, you were trying to tick boxes so you could continue your farce.

2. No, I think you are really here to try and repair damage done to your business by it being exposed for what it really is... I would say your 'good name' but lets face it, you didn't have one to start.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti dealer, just anti 'your type' of dealer.

I hope this exposure from watchdog ensures that your customers dry up and your business closes. You are not fit to keep a pet rock in my opinion.

Thank you for your comments and respect your view and opinion. Sorry you feel you would wish kellycobs to fail and hope to prove you wrong time will tell. But we have been open for business since watchdog and yes it was affected it but we still had a reasonable weekend with some great horses sold.

Regards

David

 

[Queenbee]

Sorry missed your point about vets. No our vet never aged or checked loppy or queenie. This was done by watchdogs chosen vet. Hope that clears up your comment about me passing the buck and blaming our vets.

Regards

David

So you had a horse, visibly lame even before it left your yard and you didn't get the vet to it.

Another question... Had you ever sold queenie and had her returned prior to selling her to watchdog? If so, how many times?

 

[KellysCobs]

HI David,

Interesting thread and im still very undecided about you. No doubt you can talk the hind legs off a donkey, and you've certainly got the gift of the gab, i would be really appreciative if you could enlighten me on a couple of questions?

- What, in your mind were your past mistakes and what, in your view did you do wrong with selling horses and puppies?

- I am wondering why you have answered some questions thoroughly, but not others? Some questions, like Natch's for instance, were not answered fully and i for one am very interested in the answers.

- This is a business right? youre not dealing horses because you love them or for the fun of it.. youre trying to make money. I would like to hear from you what your business model is exactly - are you buying in cheap with no known history/little history/owners fibs or word and not looking for yourself at the horse? Or can you honestly hand on heart say you try to match horse to rider to the best of your ability? If so do your prices reflect the time and money you spend on your horses while theyre in your care?

I will say that IMHO, Things can be missed wether you are a private seller or a dealer. For instance, when my boy was vetted the vet swore blind he was at least 20, when he was actually 12. The reason for that is he grinds his teeth. Any horse person worth their salt knows aging unless they agre very young, is an inexact science. Loppy i thought moved beautifully for her age ( whatever it is ) but she did look 'aged' but i dont understand why she is retiring to redwings for the rest of her days as shes clearly capable of doing a job ( light work ) and passed a vetting regardless of age. Ive seen plenty of young horses move a lot worse!!!! As for Queenie, without more infomation than ' broken bones' im not going to comment. As for the two year old sold as a 4 year old, on one hand i think you are responsible and should have looked yourself, but on the other hand youre clearly a bit rubbish because you werent aware of a galvelynes groove.

To be a honest dealer, you have to know what youre selling and take responsbility for that. Dont say that you dont know and turn a blind eye, this is where i think youve landed yourself in hot water.

As for vettings, theyre simply not worth the paper theyre written on - one of mine was a massive vet failure, but jumped at Hickstead last year, and did very well BD. Another one i bought passed a vetting by a RCVS vet and went lame with a collateral ligament issue which was longstanding a week later. Another horse i had failed a vetting with one vet but passed one the very next day with another. People seem to think they ' need ' a vetting for insurance - you dont. Unless its a high value animal likely to keep its worth and you intend not to keep him for life, you can insure a horse for 2500 and still recieve 5000 vets fees cover without *any* vetting and no exclusions taken from the vets cert.

Im not planning on buying any more horses ever, but if i did i wouldnt bother with anything but a 2 star, if that.

Sorry if I am missing some of the longer posts but I'm also on Facebook and lets just say that's a totally different audience. I will try to catch up in time and don't intend to avoid any question if present fairly and supported with some form of credible evidence. I will answer your comments in full tomorrow but will address your question about where I feel I went wrong in the past. Firstly dog breeding This was legally and more importantly morally wrong and I regret that period greatly no excuses. Horses. Many mistakes and a big lack of knowledge. Horse imports got to big to quickly and we didn't have the infrastructure or knowledge in place to deal with it. I do admit I looked at horses very much as a product and not as a live animal. I will say in my defence horse imports sold 1000s of horses per year mainly to the trade and mainly to dealers who then resold as private sellers. Whilst I accept we had a lot of complaints given the volume we sold the problem ratio was no worse than other dealers we were just very much more in the public eye as I was the first to full use websites and the Internet. I'm not saying this was right just answering the question openly and honestly.

Regards

David

 

[digitalangel]

Sorry missed your point about vets. No our vet never aged or checked loppy or queenie. This was done by watchdogs chosen vet. Hope that clears up your comment about me passing the buck and blaming our vets.

Regards

David

Aw thats a shame - im re-watching the program, and the exachange goes like this:

( talking about DOB unknown in passport )
David: we have her down as 16
Buyer: So is that about right then?
David: Yeah, Whenever theres any doubt, we always get the vets to do it.

What say you ?

 

[digitalangel]

I am looking forward to your replies tomorrow david!

Im glad to hear you aknowledge your mistakes and ignorance.

 

[KellysCobs]

So you had a horse, visibly lame even before it left your yard and you didn't get the vet to it.

Another question... Had you ever sold queenie and had her returned prior to selling her to watchdog? If so, how many times?

No and please stop putting words in my mouth. Queenie in my view was not lame leaving us. The lameness showed up when watchdogs vet did a flexion test. X-rays were then taken and something was discovered. I have written to watchdog requesting sight of this vets report and X-rays and will if released post a copy hear. No we had never sold queenie previously. We took her in part exchange from a riding school in Cheshire and paid £800 for her then sold her at £1000.

Regards

David

 

[KellysCobs]

Aw thats a shame - im re-watching the program, and the exachange goes like this:

( talking about DOB unknown in passport )
David: we have her down as 16
Buyer: So is that about right then?
David: Yeah, Whenever theres any doubt, we always get the vets to do it.

What say you ?

Yes your correct I did say if there is doubt we get our vet in. In loppys case we had no reason to doubt what the seller told us the age was and that was 16/17. I have posted a copy of the email from the seller proving this point in a earlier post. I have also posted photos of loppys teeth for opinions of age.

Regards

 

[lisabethm]

No response to putting kids in danger then David? Interesting! You defend everything else regarding your business past and present but not about kowingly allowing kids on animals obviously not suitable. Think yourself lucky mine wasn't injured.

 

[Natch]

To help you, you kindly answered some of my questions but I am still interested to know a) what, if any, routine veterinary attention do horses who are in your care get? and b) what do you personally do to assess a horse who you have just or are about to purchase to sell on? I see on your adverts you give details about the horses temperaments etc, what they are ideal for and I just wondered how you come to those decisions about each horse.

 

[Queenbee]

Sorry if I am missing some of the longer posts but I'm also on Facebook and lets just say that's a totally different audience. I will try to catch up in time and don't intend to avoid any question if present fairly and supported with some form of credible evidence. I will answer your comments in full tomorrow but will address your question about where I feel I went wrong in the past. Firstly dog breeding This was legally and more importantly morally wrong and I regret that period greatly no excuses. Horses. Many mistakes and a big lack of knowledge. Horse imports got to big to quickly and we didn't have the infrastructure or knowledge in place to deal with it. I do admit I looked at horses very much as a product and not as a live animal. I will say in my defence horse imports sold 1000s of horses per year mainly to the trade and mainly to dealers who then resold as private sellers. Whilst I accept we had a lot of complaints given the volume we sold the problem ratio was no worse than other dealers we were just very much more in the public eye as I was the first to full use websites and the Internet. I'm not saying this was right just answering the question openly and honestly.

Regards

David

It's easy to get banned here for being forthright to other posters... Not so much on Facebook, that's why we appear more civilised.

Your problems: you have little product knowledge as you say so you should get a vet out to asses all your horses before selling. You should also have people working who do know what they are dealing with, who can spot lameness and who know about good levels of care, pay them, respect them, learn off them, trust them to care for the horses since you can't by your own admission.

You are prepared to sell within hours of getting the horse, you should no matter what the circumstances cover your back by assessing the horse and its character before hand, it is no good to just pass on a sellers word. This is dangerous to the purchaser and your reputation.

You view your horses as products, cash cows only not living things... As long as you do this you will fail. Bottom line you are dealing with living things, with brains, and pasts, unless you recognise this and accommodate for this in your attitude and behaviour you will never get any better. I'm not saying give every horse a sugar cube and matching numnah and exercise boots. I'm saying it is possible to recognise and respect life and make money from it, just treating them as things is what's got you into all the situations you are in.

It is not good enough to say that you are comparable with other dealers... So what? Your practices, standards and knowledge are flawed... So give up or change them. You admit you have limited knowledge, you haven't a clue how to age a horse or spot lameness, yet you go armed with cash to a sales buy horses for reselling with no knowledge of what you are looking at. do you know how ridiculously stupid this is?

The one thing I simply can't understand is why you continue in this line of work when you by your own admission know nothing. Ignorance is not an excuse or defence. Riding is considered an extreme sport for a reason... It's dangerous enough without immoral people like you dealing in dangerous and potentially dangerous animals with no flipping knowledge of what your doing. You are putting people's lives and loved ones lives at risk by doing this. I wonder, if queenie had been purchased and paralysed someone or perhaps killed them... Would you have felt one scrap of remorse?

 

[KellysCobs]

Well, if I were your vets, I'd be embarrassed to be working with you, seriously scared for my reputation, and really angry you'd just publically named the practice on a forum.

I'm sure HHO admin have warned you about posting such information on a public forum?!! You've posted sellers emails complete with their name and email addresses, and now your vets, also the trading standards letter (which you may have permission to post) as a business you are governed by data protection laws and are obligated to protect and keep confidential any and all such information.

You requested our vets name and I gave it. Now you wish to move the argument from the points this thread was started to debate and talk about to one of forum etiquette and data protection laws. Yes I am prepared to name people as I believe it adds credibility to my comments. You and your well respected un named friend along with the so called lame then sound horse in my view adds nothing and has all the markings of someone with a personal grudge with not much to support said grudge. I feel I have been very respectful and answered your questions despite your very personal offensive comments. But I would now like to focus on other people's posts. I will however answer any further questions you have if supported by fact or other form of supportive evidence. I see little point in just answering personal attacks on me if it serves only that purpose and does not add to or move on this debate.

Regards

David