Watchdog!

[rascal]

Was wondering why the woman who wanted a "safe grown up horse" bought something described as a 4 year old for a child.

Ignorance.
An awful lot make the same mistake, don't find out about horses before they buy, then blame the animals when it all goes wrong and the child is hurt.

 

[Parachute]

Ignorance.
An awful lot make the same mistake, don't find out about horses before they buy, then blame the animals when it all goes wrong and the child is hurt.

I agree. She clearly said she wanted something safe and then bought a '4 year old' that actually ended up being 2.5 years!!

 

[Polos Mum]

Ignorance.
An awful lot make the same mistake, don't find out about horses before they buy, then blame the animals when it all goes wrong and the child is hurt.

Major ignorance and I can only assume to save money, a 4 year old will be a lot cheaper than the experienced/ well schooled 14 y/o that they really need as a small childs pony.
Crazy when it's the safety of their children

Anyone who asks anyone vaguely in the horsey world will tell them that a 4 y/o is too young for a small child, they (should) only have been broken six ish months, they are still physically growing themselves and they have the horrible 5/6 y/o teenager phase to come!

 

[rascal]

We bought a 4 yr old for our children but hubby did his bhs training and knows what hes doing. Pony is now out on loan teaching two other little girls to ride.

 

[cappucino]

I agree. She clearly said she wanted something safe and then bought a '4 year old' that actually ended up being 2.5 years!!

And here is a question for David... Do you really believe that a 4 year old should be sold as a safe pony suitable for children?

Also - do you allow vettings before the horse leaves the yard? Watchdog made no effort to get the horses checked before purchase so that seemed unclear...

And perhaps a question for the rest of us to ponder - would you have expected your out of pocket expenses to be paid by Kelly's Cobs if you were sending back an unsuitable horse?

 

[Polos Mum]

We bought a 4 yr old for our children but hubby did his bhs training and knows what hes doing. Pony is now out on loan teaching two other little girls to ride.

I guess if you can continue the ponys education from the ground or ridden (if your small enough!) and the child has the pony as more of a pet than a ridden horse then it might be possible - but in rare circumstances I'd have thought.

 

[rascal]

I guess if you can continue the ponys education from the ground or ridden (if your small enough!) and the child has the pony as more of a pet than a ridden horse then it might be possible - but in rare circumstances I'd have thought.

Our eldest had already been having lessons at a riding school, it helped that she could already ride before we bought the pony.

 

[KellysCobs]

And here is a question for David... Do you really believe that a 4 year old should be sold as a safe pony suitable for children?

Also - do you allow vettings before the horse leaves the yard? Watchdog made no effort to get the horses checked before purchase so that seemed unclear...

And perhaps a question for the rest of us to ponder - would you have expected your out of pocket expenses to be paid by Kelly's Cobs if you were sending back an unsuitable horse?

Hi cappucino

In answer to your question I must say no I don't think generally a 4 year old is suitable for a child. However I have had 4 year olds that are and plenty of 14 year olds that arnt. But to answer without a specific horse in mind, no I wouldn't and accept we need to be more careful in the future. We are considering asking our customers to complete a small questionnaire stating who and why there buying a horse. The reason for this is to protect both sides as customers do not always make it clear who there buying a horse for and there level of riding. While Im not trying claim innocent in this matter and if the customer had made us aware she was buying it for a novice child then clearly we must shoulder responsibility and accept the criticism. However I would add, this customer was offered a full refund way out of the 14-Day warranty and declined.

Regards

David

 

[KellysCobs]

And here is a question for David... Do you really believe that a 4 year old should be sold as a safe pony suitable for children?

Also - do you allow vettings before the horse leaves the yard? Watchdog made no effort to get the horses checked before purchase so that seemed unclear...

And perhaps a question for the rest of us to ponder - would you have expected your out of pocket expenses to be paid by Kelly's Cobs if you were sending back an unsuitable horse?

Yes a customer has the option of vetting either at our premises prior to purchase or with them during the 14-Day trial. The choice of vets is of course there's. If the horse is vetted with us and fails the customers deposit is refunded in full.

Regards

David

 

[KellysCobs]

I agree. She clearly said she wanted something safe and then bought a '4 year old' that actually ended up being 2.5 years!!

Sorry to sound argumentative but I do not accept Flash (Woody) was 2.5 years old. I have asked the customer to clarify this and also why if they believed the horse was only 2.5 why did she continue riding it and why did they not return it for full refund. I would invite the owner to comment as I am aware she is reading this forum.

Regards

David

 

[Parachute]

Sorry to sound argumentative but I do not accept Flash (Woody) was 2.5 years old. I have asked the customer to clarify this and also why if they believed the horse was only 2.5 why did she continue riding it and why did they not return it for full refund. I would invite the owner to comment as I am aware she is reading this forum.

Regards

David

Well, let's hope she comes forward to defend herself!

 

[KellysCobs]

Kelly'sCobs - I really admire you for coming on here and somewhat defending yourself. I feel some people can be too judgemental but having seen what Watchdog showed everybody, your business didn't look too great. Obviously people make mistakes and let's just hope these were genuine mistakes and not just made up so you could sell the horses. Every story has 2 sides, so I am open to reading this debate and not judging - although I feel you may get slated for a while.
I don't remember seeing Watchdog complain to you or ask for a refund so I can't comment on that side of things, can anybody remember if they did or not? (memory of a goldfish)

Kelly'sCobs - Perhaps you can work through this problem and just try to be more correct in future, like I said everyone makes mistakes and I just hope this is the last one like this. For the safety of the horses and potential owners.

Sorry if I seem rude, not intentional.

*Prepares to be shot down, puts bulletproof hat on*

Hi, in answer to your question did Watchdog complain or try to seek a refund. No the first I heard was when they all jumped out of the van with cameras. They made no prior contact nor did they test my 14-Day refund policy. This is a shame as the policy is genuine and I think they knew that as one of there contributors a Mss Jane Arkell has tested this policy and did received a full refund exactly in accordance with our terms and conditions. Could I suggest this may be the reason why they never claimed a refund as that would have spoiled there story?

 

[KellysCobs]

Well, let's hope she comes forward to defend herself!

Yes I agree, I hope she does too.

 

[DragonSlayer]

I'm not too far from this establishment, and a relation very recently bought a horse from here. Horse is everything Kelly's Cobs said he was!

Thought I'd just clear that up as she was treated very well and they are very honest as far as she could see and I haven't heard of anyone else I know having bother.

 

[KellysCobs]

Dear Michelle

Could you kindly send on to us copies of vet reports and Xrays for both Loppy and Queenie and could we also arrange to visit both horses with a independent vet which were happy for you to pre-approve.

After watching the recent program could I ask you for a definitive age on Loppy as in the program two ages were suggested, one of 20 and another of 25. If this is not possible could you explain why there is a 5 year difference in your vets estimation of age?

If none of this is possible could you kindly explain your reasons.

Kind Regards

David
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: respose from kellyscobs
From: Michelle Cox <removed>
Date: Thu, May 09, 2013 8:32 am
To: Kellyscobs <removed>

Apologies I did not read that you expected us to return the horses to you. We obviously will not be returning them to you as neither are suitable as riding horses and neither should have been sold. As explained, one is very old nearing the end of her life and the other has broken bones and is lame, dangerous and in need of a strong course of painkillers before she inevitably has to be put down.

These horses were misdescribed, so as is in line with your refund policy I shall still await a cheque from you for the amount of £2250.

Regards,

Michelle

 

[Montyforever]

The owner of Woody is not reading this forum (as far as I am aware) im a friend of his owner and used to help look after him before my injury caused by him (Woody).
He was only 2.5 at the time of sale, she has had several vets check his age. I can't comment on if she was offered refund or not or what her answer was. All she told me was that you had offered to exchange him but she wouldn't want another horse from you due to the problems she had with Woody which is understandable. I think she decided better the devil you know in this case.

Yes she bought a young horse, he's mainly ridden by a 16 year old but she wanted a safe enough horse for kids to be led around on and fuss which IMO isn't too much to ask of a 4 year old.
Fair enough you could expect a few problems popping up when buying a youngster but believe me woody is very well practised with the naughty habits!

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

The owner of Woody is not reading this forum (as far as I am aware) im a friend of his owner and used to help look after him before my injury caused by him (Woody).
He was only 2.5 at the time of sale, she has had several vets check his age. I can't comment on if she was offered refund or not or what her answer was. All she told me was that you had offered to exchange him but she wouldn't want another horse from you due to the problems she had with Woody which is understandable. I think she decided better the devil you know in this case.

Yes she bought a young horse, he's mainly ridden by a 16 year old but she wanted a safe enough horse for kids to be led around on and fuss which IMO isn't too much to ask of a 4 year old.
Fair enough you could expect a few problems popping up when buying a youngster but believe me woody is very well practised with the naughty habits!

But it is.
I can't think of a person here who would tell you different.

At four, at what and for how long would you think the pony has been practising controlling itself in all situations?

What you find over and over again is people saying how surprised they are that their youngster is so good.
They are babies, some are unexpectedly mature in outlook, but it's not expected.

 

[KellysCobs]

Dear Michelle

Could you kindly send on to us copies of vet reports and Xrays for both Loppy and Queenie and could we also arrange to visit both horses with a independent vet which were happy for you to pre-approve.

After watching the recent program could I ask you for a definitive age on Loppy as in the program two ages were suggested, one of 20 and another of 25. If this is not possible could you explain why there is a 5 year difference in your vets estimation of age?

If none of this is possible could you kindly explain your reasons.

Kind Regards

David
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: respose from kellyscobs
From: Michelle Cox <removed>
Date: Thu, May 09, 2013 8:32 am
To: Kellyscobs <removed>

Apologies I did not read that you expected us to return the horses to you. We obviously will not be returning them to you as neither are suitable as riding horses and neither should have been sold. As explained, one is very old nearing the end of her life and the other has broken bones and is lame, dangerous and in need of a strong course of painkillers before she inevitably has to be put down.

These horses were misdescribed, so as is in line with your refund policy I shall still await a cheque from you for the amount of £2250.

Regards,

Michelle

Hi Montyforever.

Again not wanting to sound argumentative and correct me if Im wrong but did you not say the lady in question didn't ask for a refund because she was out of the 14-Day period in a earlier post? and did you not also say in a earlier post that the horse threw you off so badly you had to go to A&E. I ask as the lady in question in the Watchdog program says you ended up in A&E because the horse yanked you while you were leading him. With regards to age I have requested sight of a vets report stating age without success. Can I also ask you again if you were aware the horse was only 2.5 years old why were you riding him?

I can assure this customer was offered a full refund and maybe you could ask her to comment in person or at least clarify to you if she was or not offered a full refund

Regards

David

 

[Polos Mum]

David - I do hope the rather niaeve Michelle is from Watchdog not Redwings? I must remember to try that when buying a car - e-mail and tell them it's not as described but I'm keeping it and I'd like a full refund !!

If you're considering it I'd like to buy all your horses tomorrow on those terms, I'm sure I'll find someone to find something wrong with them so, I'll be after a full refund also. At worst I'll sell them all for meat and make £500 a go - they may even be one or two that is worth something more, either way good money for me.

 

[KellysCobs]

The owner of Woody is not reading this forum (as far as I am aware) im a friend of his owner and used to help look after him before my injury caused by him (Woody).
He was only 2.5 at the time of sale, she has had several vets check his age. I can't comment on if she was offered refund or not or what her answer was. All she told me was that you had offered to exchange him but she wouldn't want another horse from you due to the problems she had with Woody which is understandable. I think she decided better the devil you know in this case.

Yes she bought a young horse, he's mainly ridden by a 16 year old but she wanted a safe enough horse for kids to be led around on and fuss which IMO isn't too much to ask of a 4 year old.
Fair enough you could expect a few problems popping up when buying a youngster but believe me woody is very well practised with the naughty habits!

Sorry forgot to comment on you saying she actually purchased the horse for her 16 year old, well in the program Lisa states she was buying the horse for her grand kids and makes no mention of wanting him for her 16 year old daughter. Could you kindly clarify which version is correct, yours or Lisa.

Regards

David

 

[KellysCobs]

David - I do hope the rather niaeve Michelle is from Watchdog not Redwings? I must remember to try that when buying a car - e-mail and tell them it's not as described but I'm keeping it and I'd like a full refund !!

If you're considering it I'd like to buy all your horses tomorrow on those terms, I'm sure I'll find someone to find something wrong with them so, I'll be after a full refund also. At worst I'll sell them all for meat and make £500 a go - they may even be one or two that is worth something more, either way good money for me.

Hi Polo mum, Michelle is from Watchdog she is the programs producer.

Regards

David

 

[Slightly Foxed]

The owner of Woody is not reading this forum (as far as I am aware) im a friend of his owner and used to help look after him before my injury caused by him (Woody).
He was only 2.5 at the time of sale, she has had several vets check his age. I can't comment on if she was offered refund or not or what her answer was. All she told me was that you had offered to exchange him but she wouldn't want another horse from you due to the problems she had with Woody which is understandable. I think she decided better the devil you know in this case.

Yes she bought a young horse, he's mainly ridden by a 16 year old but she wanted a safe enough horse for kids to be led around on and fuss which IMO isn't too much to ask of a 4 year old.
Fair enough you could expect a few problems popping up when buying a youngster but believe me woody is very well practised with the naughty habits!

On no one's side here but if the purchaser is convinced the pony is two and a half, why is he still being ridden and not turned away for a year??

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

On no one's side here but if the purchaser is convinced the pony is two and a half, why is he still being ridden and not turned away for a year??

I asked this pages ago and still haven't had an answer.

 

[platypus]

David i think you could talk a nun into bed, you definitely have the gift of the gab and you are as you did on the bbc coming across very well.Sorry if any of this has been mentioned before but heres my view- Dealers are pretty much there to buy and sell horses and make a profit, ok nothing wrong with that but i expect a dealer just to sell a horse on the fact this is horse, this is what it does and this is the price no emotional ties with it just a general understanding of said horse and its capabilities. However you claim to be able to sell horses suitable for novices, this is taken from your website

We specialize in providing family horses suitable for all riders including the nervous and novice. The sort you can take from the field once or twice a week tack up and ride away without fuss or drama, the type you can hack up and down dale as if sat at home in your favorite armchair. So if hassle free hacking for all the family or the perfect mother/daughter share is what your looking for then please browse our good selection of family Cobs.

Nothing wrong with that no, but how can you guarantee every horse you get is suitable and what happens to the more complex ones, the rearers, buckers etc are these catered for else where sold to more experienced riders, competition projects etc i suspect not because anyone with a clue of what they wanted wouldn't touch you with a barge pole, i suspect they are just sold as novice horses in the hope they don't show any problems before the 14 day trial is up.You also advertise that you will buy horses-now for me if somebody is willing to sell to a dealer either they are after a quick sale or there is something wrong with the horse in the first place or they themselves would have sold it on as a safe hack, family ride. A good safe, bombproof horse is hard to find and worth its weight in gold unless you are seriously blessed i highly doubt you have a yard full of these. Your turn around on these horses is so quick i doubt you even get to know there names, they arrive and are plodded up and down the road on camera placed on your website and are next in line to be sold, what happens when horses are returned within the trial period because of behaviour issues do you re-assess them and their needs, check back,teeth etc and get to the reason why or just give them a good razz round so they wont cause problems again. Like i said from the bbc i think you do come across very well and the whole programme was a sham and poorly done-from what i did see i cant fault the care of the horses they all seemed happy,fed,clean and had turnout but i do question the ability of your staff/riders from what ive seen is yes they are very pretty and probably do a good job of fronting the whole show but do they have any qualifications, experience with horses or are they just giving them a quick spin up and down the road and over the odd jump because surely they could tell a 2.5year old from a 4 year old.
There is no money in horses unless IMHO you are either doing it very very well and correctly or doing it wrong- i suspect you turn these horses around so quickly so that you dont have to spend a fortune on feed or even get the farrier out to them, perfectly fine if they are advertised correctly.
Im not going to argue about the ages of the horses shown or the injuries because im sure you do have your reasons and i cant say any differently the above is just my opinion and would be happy if you proved me wrong but i suspect you only came on here to vice your side because your worried about your business being affected.Im sure you wil carry on trading and have some happy customers but at the end of the day it is false advertisment and arguably fraud.

 

[Polos Mum]

I asked this pages ago and still haven't had an answer.

I think the owners friend said all this happened a while ago and they now think the pony is over 3 so are riding him on that basis. If it were my pony I might try a good year or so off(just basic ground handling) then re starting from scratch which may well fix quite a lot.

 

[Tinypony]

What a read!
Surely if you want a refund you probably have to return the "product". That's a bit harsh but reality I think.
I have a very good friend who brought a nice little cob who was thought to be 4 years old. It wasn't until staff at the livery yard started to wonder about how green he was that they thought to get a vet to double-check his age and he was found to be two. I know this because the dealer took him back and 7 years later I brought him.

 

[KellysCobs]

David i think you could talk a nun into bed, you definitely have the gift of the gab and you are as you did on the bbc coming across very well.Sorry if any of this has been mentioned before but heres my view- Dealers are pretty much there to buy and sell horses and make a profit, ok nothing wrong with that but i expect a dealer just to sell a horse on the fact this is horse, this is what it does and this is the price no emotional ties with it just a general understanding of said horse and its capabilities. However you claim to be able to sell horses suitable for novices, this is taken from your website

We specialize in providing family horses suitable for all riders including the nervous and novice. The sort you can take from the field once or twice a week tack up and ride away without fuss or drama, the type you can hack up and down dale as if sat at home in your favorite armchair. So if hassle free hacking for all the family or the perfect mother/daughter share is what your looking for then please browse our good selection of family Cobs.

Nothing wrong with that no, but how can you guarantee every horse you get is suitable and what happens to the more complex ones, the rearers, buckers etc are these catered for else where sold to more experienced riders, competition projects etc i suspect not because anyone with a clue of what they wanted wouldn't touch you with a barge pole, i suspect they are just sold as novice horses in the hope they don't show any problems before the 14 day trial is up.You also advertise that you will buy horses-now for me if somebody is willing to sell to a dealer either they are after a quick sale or there is something wrong with the horse in the first place or they themselves would have sold it on as a safe hack, family ride. A good safe, bombproof horse is hard to find and worth its weight in gold unless you are seriously blessed i highly doubt you have a yard full of these. Your turn around on these horses is so quick i doubt you even get to know there names, they arrive and are plodded up and down the road on camera placed on your website and are next in line to be sold, what happens when horses are returned within the trial period because of behaviour issues do you re-assess them and their needs, check back,teeth etc and get to the reason why or just give them a good razz round so they wont cause problems again. Like i said from the bbc i think you do come across very well and the whole programme was a sham and poorly done-from what i did see i cant fault the care of the horses they all seemed happy,fed,clean and had turnout but i do question the ability of your staff/riders from what ive seen is yes they are very pretty and probably do a good job of fronting the whole show but do they have any qualifications, experience with horses or are they just giving them a quick spin up and down the road and over the odd jump because surely they could tell a 2.5year old from a 4 year old.
There is no money in horses unless IMHO you are either doing it very very well and correctly or doing it wrong- i suspect you turn these horses around so quickly so that you dont have to spend a fortune on feed or even get the farrier out to them, perfectly fine if they are advertised correctly.
Im not going to argue about the ages of the horses shown or the injuries because im sure you do have your reasons and i cant say any differently the above is just my opinion and would be happy if you proved me wrong but i suspect you only came on here to vice your side because your worried about your business being affected.Im sure you wil carry on trading and have some happy customers but at the end of the day it is false advertisment and arguably fraud.

Hi Platypus and thank you for your post. I will answer as honestly as i can and at length tomorrow as I think you have some very valid points and do need some consideration as there not easy to answer lightly. One thing I can say tonight is why I came on here and why Im staying and replying as believe me Im not getting an easy ride. My reasons of course is to but my side but equally Ive learnt from this forum and have been made to think how can I stop this happening again, one example is someone suggested why dont I get the horses pre-vetted. Well this is something we are now looking into, so without rewriting war and peace the short answer is, to learn and listen to other peoples view and hopefully improve the way I trade. I did try this on facebook but became a tad disheartened after the fifth death threat.

Regards

David

 

[SonceyDog]

We bought a pony from kellys cobs and she is super! We saw a pony advertised by them on horsemart and phoned to get further details about him. Spoke to David who asked me what we wanted the pony for and he told us he had 4 or 5 on the yard who may suit our purpose. When we got there we were shown around by lovely girl (sorry can't remember her name). Asked us exactly what we wanted we told her a safe hack for mum (me), something for my 13 year old daughter to do pony club and horse ball on, and lastly it had to be fairly bombproof as my 20 year old disabled daughter would also be riding occasionally. She then showed us 4 ponies she thought would suit. Tried Billy first as he was the one we had seen on horsemart. He was demonstrated to us 1st by young guy then my 13 year old daughter got on. He was fine not naughty in any way but a bit strong so guy said think he may be too much for your other daughter let's try the next one.
Next was dolls and this is the one we bought she was demonstrated again 1st then my daughter rode then me. Then we took her for hack past loads of really scary stuff that she did not turn a hair at. Then my daughter rode her in school again then we practised getting on and off on wrong side in clumsy manner which is how disabled daughter has to mount and dismount pony stood perfectly still not bothered in the slightest. Then asked if we could pop her over a couple of jumps, fine no problem. Went in stable looked her all over good as gold. Price was £2000 less than you would expect to pay and the reason is overshot at the knees obviously been down on the road at some time. Spoke to David about her history she had been bought at auction described as quiet, good in traffic, also drives. Sold at auction with warranty. He showed us passport. He then explained kellys cobs warranty to us we asked about vetting, we were a bit concerned about the knees. We asked if our vet could come to his yard, yes that was fine, he would just ask us to leave a deposit and he would withdraw the horse from sale until vet had been. In the end we decided to have her vetted at home our vet tried every which way to make her go lame on those knees but without success. Passed vetting, age was correct in fact she does everything we were told she did and more. Yes she may be more at risk of arthritis as she ages but let's face it arthritis could happen to any horse. We are fairly experienced and did spend a whole afternoon doing everything we could think of with the pony but it was no problem with the people at kellys cobs they could not have been more helpful and encouraged us to give the pony a proper trial. I would certainly consider buying another horse from them. I will also be writing to watchdog as I think the programme was totally unfair. I also have to say that during our 2 visits to their yard all the horses looked extremely well cared for and certainly not mistreated in any way. The staff were in full knowledge of all their likes and dislikes and in my experience this only comes from spending considerable time with an animal. Good luck for the future kellys cobs!

 

[Montyforever]

Where did I put that I fell off woody .. Would be quite interested to know as I don't actually ride
Yes I was yanked while leading him to the field.
I only know what Lisa has told me from her point of view so I can't be sure what you offered her/what she has of hasn't accepted as I stated before. Although I would believe Lisa over you any day. I saw his advert/videos of him while for sale so I also know what you advertised him as.

 

[KellysCobs]

I'm not too far from this establishment, and a relation very recently bought a horse from here. Horse is everything Kelly's Cobs said he was!

Thought I'd just clear that up as she was treated very well and they are very honest as far as she could see and I haven't heard of anyone else I know having bother.

Ive just fainted lol. Thank you and what horse was it. One thing has just struck me, would any of you posters like to visit? Your welcome by appointment or unannounced.

Regards

David