Watchdog!

KellysCobs

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Hi JenJ. Yes thinking about it I think your right and will remove the email address now, my motive was to prove genuine but can see your point and dont want my threads removed. Thank you for your comment about me coming on here and provided any comment is sensible I will stay and answer accordingly. I did try the same on facebook but was inundated by children making all sort of silly threats and comments.

Regards

David
 

JenJ

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I have tried to remove the email address, but cant seem to find anywhere to edit it. Regards

No, as JFTD pointed out above it's too late for an edit, as that only lasts for about 5 minutes or so after making the post. I have reported it to admin and so has JFTD, so either admin will decide it's fine and leave it as it is, or edit your post themselves.
 

dunkley

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Morning. With regard Flash or Woody as the customer renamed him. You state the vet aged the horse at two? Well what age does the passport say which was not done by us btw (we will post the passport details if required) It says four ( if memory serves me correctly) and that was done again by a qualified vet for the breeder. So we now have 2 vets with different opinions. To be honest its a difficult one to answer as I do rely on professionals to age the horse correctly. What is interesting is if you were of the opinion the horse was two, why was it not returned and why were you riding it? Again Im the first to accept we like all make mistakes, but they are genuine mistakes.

Regards
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I find it difficult to accept that someone such as yourself, who I assume is an experienced horseman with many years, and hundreds of horses, under his belt, cannot check in a horse's mouth for age. We are not talking of the somewhat less easy to see changes in an 'aged' horse (other than the obvious sloping teeth of something that is positively ancient), but relatively simple interpretation of 'baby' teeth. A dealer local to me ('proper' horseman/nagsman) can accurately age most horses within a year or two, especially at such a young age. He also has no problems with imparting his findings to prospective purchaser - accurately. May I suggest that, if you are not confident in aging by dentition, despite your experience, that you find a local, qualified, equine dentist who will more than happily do a proper dental examination/ageing on all your new acquisitions, and provide a written record. This would counter any possible allegations that you are being less than open about horses' ages. The cost is usually around £40-£50 which, 1) could be included in the selling price and 2), is less £s and less grief than bad publicity. In fact, if you use the same dentist regularly, I bet s/he would do you a deal.
 

Montyforever

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Woody was aged as 2.5 in december. Which makes him just turned 3 now although the age you sold him as would mean he is supposed to be 5. He was obviously being ridden (and driven!) at the time of sale by you/your staff. When my friend discovered this she was out of the 2 week "exchange period".
He has since been turned away and lightly hacked recently. But a lot of damage has been done to his behaviour/temperament already.

I can't comment on the age on his passport, as I don't own him. I'm just going by what my friend was told by a qualified vet and my own personal opinion of what a 2 year old looks like and a 4 year old looks like and behaves like.
 

KellysCobs

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Morning Dunkley. Yes I agree I can age a horse from 2 to 4 quiet easily. I accept your comments that either myself or a member of staff could have made a mistake in this case. I must confess I do rely on passport ages too much believing a vet is more qualified than I but I am well aware vets get it wrong all the time. So yes I accept your criticism and will look at improving this aspect of our business. Regards
 

horseluver4eva

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Sorry if this has already been asked as i have not read through the whole thread. But how come when you class horses as 'safe' horses they then go on to their next owner and become dangerous? Yes i appreciate the fact that you offer a 14 day trial but i do not understand why if a horse is so 'safe' it then goes on to become so 'dangerous' within a number of days. I do agree with some points you have made as you are selling the horse as it was sold to you; but surely if a horse was given to you without an age on passport and an estimation of age then you would get somebody to check before you purchased the horse rather than going off what the seller says? I have personally been through this myself, and finding out your horse is a lot older than stated really does make you mad! You may not then be able to go on and do as you initially wanted to with the horse; i know your a dealer but you still should make sure all facts are correct before purchase because as it is happening now it not only causes trouble for the buyer but is also ruining your reputation. Some comments you have said do seem genuine and comments ive seen on facebook are unfair, i apologise if i sound harsh but it is not only you the seller and the buyer involved but also a horse which is helpless in this situation.Regards.
 

KellysCobs

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Woody was aged as 2.5 in december. Which makes him just turned 3 now although the age you sold him as would mean he is supposed to be 5. He was obviously being ridden (and driven!) at the time of sale by you/your staff. When my friend discovered this she was out of the 2 week "exchange period".
He has since been turned away and lightly hacked recently. But a lot of damage has been done to his behaviour/temperament already.

I can't comment on the age on his passport, as I don't own him. I'm just going by what my friend was told by a qualified vet and my own personal opinion of what a 2 year old looks like and a 4 year old looks like and behaves like.
Hi Montyforever

In reply, the refund was offered by us regardless of time scale and it was refused. I can clear up the passport age, it says 4.
 

KellysCobs

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Sorry if this has already been asked as i have not read through the whole thread. But how come when you class horses as 'safe' horses they then go on to their next owner and become dangerous? Yes i appreciate the fact that you offer a 14 day trial but i do not understand why if a horse is so 'safe' it then goes on to become so 'dangerous' within a number of days. I do agree with some points you have made as you are selling the horse as it was sold to you; but surely if a horse was given to you without an age on passport and an estimation of age then you would get somebody to check before you purchased the horse rather than going off what the seller says? I have personally been through this myself, and finding out your horse is a lot older than stated really does make you mad! You may not then be able to go on and do as you initially wanted to with the horse; i know your a dealer but you still should make sure all facts are correct before purchase because as it is happening now it not only causes trouble for the buyer but is also ruining your reputation. Some comments you have said do seem genuine and comments ive seen on facebook are unfair, i apologise if i sound harsh but it is not only you the seller and the buyer involved but also a horse which is helpless in this situation.Regards.
Hi horseluver4eva

You do not seem harsh at all and I welcome you comments. With hind sight I wish I aged the horse myself but I didnt so accept your comments. Can I ask you to be more specific about me describing a horse as safe and then it turning dangerous, could you tell me the horse your referring to.

Regards
 

LollyDolly

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I don't have any questions to ask, however I did just want to mention that I felt that Watchdog was wrong for not letting David explain his side of the story, the programme was very poorly done and personally I would have rather heard both sides of the argument as I don't like to make a judgement without knowing the full truth.

David, I just want to commend you on how well you have handled this situation and how you are keeping very calm and rational, and I am glad that we can hear your side of the story as well.
 

Lambkins

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I would like to add my pony is 100% rising 6 ..I know that for a fact (owned since a baby ) dentist said he has a slightly immature mouth (more like 4-5) ..I also know to have happened to friends horses ..just saying its not always as cut and dry as people think .. Also some 2-3 year olds look like typical babies ..and others do not .. So yes mistakes can happen ..and it's trying to keep these mistakes to the minimum .. Sounds like Kelly's cob have offered to refund ..so sounds fair to me .. ??
 

SatsumaGirl

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^ My big lad turned 6 the other day. I've had him since a yearling/know the breeder. Had the dentist out for his yearly check last month and was told he actually had the mouth of a rising 5yo, due to half the teeth that should be through by now, still making their way.

I do think this is going to be one of those situations that keeps rolling and rolling.

As said before, whilst I get what Watchdog was trying to achieve, I believe a more balanced approach should have been taken from both sides. As ever, one-sided arguments make good viewing and that's clearly what they were after- the scandal and 'shock factor' if you will.
 

kinnygirl1

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I don't have any questions to ask, however I did just want to mention that I felt that Watchdog was wrong for not letting David explain his side of the story, the programme was very poorly done and personally I would have rather heard both sides of the argument as I don't like to make a judgement without knowing the full truth.

David, I just want to commend you on how well you have handled this situation and how you are keeping very calm and rational, and I am glad that we can hear your side of the story as well.

@kellyscobs ^^ this. Do also want to commend you on coming on here and trying to anwser questions. I haven't bought a horse from you but did buy a horse from another dealer who turned out to be a lot younger than they stated. I found out when I got the equine dentist out as although I had a vetting the vet didn't pick up on the age issue:(. Im my case, luckily it has worked out fine, but I can understand how devastating a mistake like that can be for both the horse and owner.

Can I ask what you plan to do in the future differently to stop some of these issues from re occurring?

Thanks
 

KellysCobs

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@kellyscobs ^^ this. Do also want to commend you on coming on here and trying to anwser questions. I haven't bought a horse from you but did buy a horse from another dealer who turned out to be a lot younger than they stated. I found out when I got the equine dentist out as although I had a vetting the vet didn't pick up on the age issue:(. Im my case, luckily it has worked out fine, but I can understand how devastating a mistake like that can be for both the horse and owner.

Can I ask what you plan to do in the future differently to stop some of these issues from re occurring?

Thanks
Hi Kinnygirl1

Thank you for your comments and Im happy to answer all questions. In answer to yours about future plans, we are looking in to having all horses pre-vetted at our expense while still allowing the customer to have there own independent vetting to be done to avoid any accusation of bias, hopefully this could help with this issue not happening again. Regards
 

teasle

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Hi- Kellyscobs, as you seem willing to answer questions about your business, can you explain how you are linked to the other busnesses known as Bombproof, Lazy plods, and Crack on. These were busnesses that earned a bad reputation for selling dodgy horses. It seemed that some horse dealing businesses have many more unhappy customers than others.
 

KellysCobs

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Hi- Kellyscobs, as you seem willing to answer questions about your business, can you explain how you are linked to the other busnesses known as Bombproof, Lazy plods, and Crack on. These were busnesses that earned a bad reputation for selling dodgy horses. It seemed that some horse dealing businesses have many more unhappy customers than others.
Hi teasle, I have had this levelled at me before and the answer is very easy. I have no connection whatsoever. The only common factor is a surname "Thomas". I have heard of these companies and am aware they were run by a Louise Thomas.

Regards

David
 

cattysmith

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kellyscobs...my husband has been desperate for a loooong time to see someone get one up on that irritating reporter and was mightily impressed with just how you managed to do so!
 

s4sugar

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What about Horse Imports, Horsebids, Melwood Stables, Happy Hackers, Online-24-Seven, Misterton Carr Stables & Puppy Paradise?
 

cattysmith

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I also need to add that even "professionals" can misjudge ageing a horse by its teeth. I had a dentist last year try to tell me my horse was in her late 30s when I know for a fact that she's 18/19. I have pictures of her as a youngster from my friend who bought her from a local lady. Of course people seem to go with the "professional"'s opinion because they feel they can't ever be wrong...
 

JandP

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I haven't watched the program and don't know the background, so this is not a comment on this specific dealer.

To be honest I don't even know how and why dealers for horses for 'novices' exist.

A true and genuine schoolmaster is a rare animal indeed, and does not just happen by accident - it happens by the horse firstly having the right temperament, and secondly by having the right start in life. These horses are never just 'discarded' into dealers yards. They are too well loved, and too much in demand! People can sell these genuine horses a thousand times over for decent money.

If you want a genuine schoolmaster, you will never find it in a dealers yard. Or if you do, you have had a massive stroke of luck.

I don't think all dealers are dodgy, but their place is in the competition world, where people are not expecting a patent safety schoolmaster (which the vast majority of horses are not).

I do believe people are so naïve when it comes to buying horses now - horses are not machines, and a vetting does not guarantee anything, but please people - at least start by looking for them in the right place otherwise you shouldn't be surprised at what you end up with!
 

Tinypony

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I haven't watched the program and don't know the background, so this is not a comment on this specific dealer.

To be honest I don't even know how and why dealers for horses for 'novices' exist.

A true and genuine schoolmaster is a rare animal indeed, and does not just happen by accident - it happens by the horse firstly having the right temperament, and secondly by having the right start in life. These horses are never just 'discarded' into dealers yards. They are too well loved, and too much in demand! People can sell these genuine horses a thousand times over for decent money.

If you want a genuine schoolmaster, you will never find it in a dealers yard. Or if you do, you have had a massive stroke of luck.

I don't think all dealers are dodgy, but their place is in the competition world, where people are not expecting a patent safety schoolmaster (which the vast majority of horses are not).

I do believe people are so naïve when it comes to buying horses now - horses are not machines, and a vetting does not guarantee anything, but please people - at least start by looking for them in the right place otherwise you shouldn't be surprised at what you end up with!

Of course there are dealers who sell schoolmasters. Schoolmasters do change hands from time to time, and they aren't always sold privately.
 

foxy1

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I think people need to appreciate how horses can change in a new enviroment. I bought a gelding from a friend a few years ago and if I hadn't known the horse for years beforehand I would have thought she had sold me a lunatic! He settled in a few weeks though and was fine thereafter. They are animals not machines.
 

teasle

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I think people need to appreciate how horses can change in a new enviroment. I bought a gelding from a friend a few years ago and if I hadn't known the horse for years beforehand I would have thought she had sold me a lunatic! He settled in a few weeks though and was fine thereafter. They are animals not machines.

That is very true but surely applies to all horses sold. Nevertheless, some deaing businesses do seem to have many unhappy customers, and their issues are often more serious ( ie health issues) than a bit of unsettled behaviour.
 

KellysCobs

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What about Horse Imports, Horsebids, Melwood Stables, Happy Hackers, Online-24-Seven, Misterton Carr Stables & Puppy Paradise?
Hi S4Sugar

Yes my past has been very well documented and penalties served. But does a past automatically prove guilt ? It is because of my past and my concerns about repeating the same mistakes I have involved Trading Standards in every stage of Kellyscobs from conception to present day and they have been extremely supportive. They have moved on from my past and recognised a very different approach and attitude from myself. Please find listed again a email from Trading Standards.

Hi David

I have no problem in confirming that we are currently working with you and we have been working with you prior to the Watchdog broadcast in all aspects of your business, from your animal welfare obligations to your e-commerce and terms and conditions. I can also confirm that to date you have responded positively to the advice offered and have taken steps to comply with Trading Standards requirements. If the magazines wish for me to confirm this directly to them, feel free to pass on my contact details.

Regards

Andy Woad
Trading Standards Enforcement Officer

North Lincolnshire Council
Places Directorate
Church Square House
Scunthorpe
North Lincolnshire
DN15 6XQ

Tel 01724 297654
Fax 01724 297895
www.northlincs.gov.uk/tradingstandards
 

s4sugar

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Yes I read that email earlier and also where you asked how to remove it from the forum.

Does a past automatically prove guilt? No.

Does a leopard change it's spots?
 

KellysCobs

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I also need to add that even "professionals" can misjudge ageing a horse by its teeth. I had a dentist last year try to tell me my horse was in her late 30s when I know for a fact that she's 18/19. I have pictures of her as a youngster from my friend who bought her from a local lady. Of course people seem to go with the "professional"'s opinion because they feel they can't ever be wrong...
Thanks for this post and fully agree, its very difficult and if honest can only ever be a best guess situation after a certain age. I wonder if Watchdog would have stated the horse was 16 had I sold it as 25 years old if it served there story better ? and for those who saw the program with Loppy jumping about would you say she looked 16 or 25 ??

Regards

David
 

KellysCobs

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Yes I read that email earlier and also where you asked how to remove it from the forum.

Does a past automatically prove guilt? No.

Does a leopard change it's spots?

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Well all I can do is put the best defence forward and let you decide that.
 

weebarney

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Thanks for this post and fully agree, its very difficult and if honest can only ever be a best guess situation after a certain age. I wonder if Watchdog would have stated the horse was 16 had I sold it as 25 years old if it served there story better ? and for those who saw the program with Loppy jumping about would you say she looked 16 or 25 ??

Regards

David

I'll be honest about loppy and while watching the programme I thought i was being cautious at ageing it 20. The horse looked very sweet but also old.
 

lannerch

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Have not read all the posts but did see the program with my totally non horsey friend, his view was that watchdog did not really give the dealer a chance, if the dealer offered a 14 day refund , then if the person did not discover any major faults in that 14 day period, that was there fault and in his opinion the dealer sounded very reasonable and was being unfairly picked on by watchdog !
 
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