Water deprivation as a training tool

[Patterdale]

Not surprising!

 

[MissMistletoe]

I remember being told by a friend of a friend who went to a Parelli fun weekend in the Midlands that when they unloaded their horses they were not allowed to water them.

This was in the hot summer and the friend could not understand why she couldnt offer her mare water.

She was told that the horse must see you as the leader who dictates when and where you should drink.

The horses were not offered water all evening, and apparently people were going out to the stables to water their horses and someone told them that the horses were not allowed any until the morning.

Sadistic.

 

[amandap]

Aaargh! I've never met anyone from another "NH machine" who would advocate this!! In fact, it's a bit mean to label them all "NH machines" because some are very far from that, and their bank balances are lighter as a result.

I second this.

Also, there are posts on this thread which point to water deprivation being used here/UK as behavioural control. So it is far from just PP using this sort of cruelty to control horses.

 

[cefyl]

I remember being told by a friend of a friend who went to a Parelli fun weekend in the Midlands that when they unloaded their horses they were not allowed to water them.

This was in the hot summer and the friend could not understand why she couldnt offer her mare water.

She was told that the horse must see you as the leader who dictates when and where you should drink.

The horses were not offered water all evening, and apparently people were going out to the stables to water their horses and someone told them that the horses were not allowed any until the morning.

Sadistic.

And what was the response of the owners? Did they over ride the Parelli instructions and take care of the welfare of their horses?

 

[nosenseofdirection]

I'm really quite shocked at this. Imagine if people tried this on their unruly children- the public outcry would be deafening. All creatures need water. Withholding it is barbaric!

 

[Goldenstar]

I remember being told by a friend of a friend who went to a Parelli fun weekend in the Midlands that when they unloaded their horses they were not allowed to water them.

This was in the hot summer and the friend could not understand why she couldnt offer her mare water.

She was told that the horse must see you as the leader who dictates when and where you should drink.

The horses were not offered water all evening, and apparently people were going out to the stables to water their horses and someone told them that the horses were not allowed any until the morning.

Sadistic.

more fool them I would have loaded my horse gone home pausing only to call the RSPCA.
That's madness dehydration is so bad for horses and they MUST drink during ( if possible ) or after travelling what is wrong with these people .
You can be your horses leader with out nonsense like that .

 

[Ibblebibble]

Urgh I could literally spit on the man.

i wouldn't spit on him if he was on fire!!!

I wish i could say i was surprised at these revelations but i'm not, i am always deeply suspicious of any group/cult who hide their methods unless you are paying a princely sum to join them

 

[Grayson]

Grayson that extract from the 2006 DVD worries me hugely - … How is it that all these devotees have never questioned that little gem of advice and this is the first we, outside the 'cult' are only now hearing about this barbaric training method....six years down the line?

I questioned Parelli's work from the first — and only — demo that I went to in 2001 and it wasn't even him doing it, it was Neil Pye. I didn't like the way they worked the crowd, I didn't like the "you can do this at level 1 and this at level 4" ethos, I didn't like the fact that it would cost thousands of pounds to get where most of us wanted to go.

I went to a Monty Roberts demo a few months later and got a very different impression: there were no circus tricks to impress. The technique he used was one that you had to learn, but his philosophy of moving a horse's feet, leading at his head, on a long line, and making it stop when you did, was one that I took home with me for the cost of the ticket.

Where the PP demo made me reluctant to look any further, the MR one, and the conversation I had with him after, as it happened, about killing dogs in Germany because of their breed, restored my interest in ways of working with horses, that I had not considered before.

What I hadn't realised between November 2001 and February 2002, was that PP uses violence to get things done, whereas MR and his students, are opposed to violence of any form, whether towards dogs, horses or people. This then has been my yardstick: if a trainer hits a horse, I won't have anything further to do with his methods. What I didn't realise until that programme last week, was that Pat Parelli breaks animal welfare laws to make himself seem important. That takes violence to horses to a level that I cannot comprehend.

The more I investigated this abuse, the more I discovered that this has, as my informant stated, been going on a long time: from Jul. 17, 2009, Kitari http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=214757&page=7

To the comment about water deprivation, I HAVE seen a parelli person use it as a tactic to get the horse more comfortable with handling since the person supplied its needs for survival.​

from December 4th, 2011, Vantage http://www.themuckbucket.com/archive/index.php/t-8871.html?

Went to work at Florida Horse Protection yesterday and was completely blown away - one of the rescues who was "leased" to a Parelli student had to be re-confiscated because the owner (who I'm sure OD's on the koolaid) followed the "Parelli Program Rules" to a tee....which apparently includes WITHHOLDING WATER so that "the horse will learn to become dependant on it's handler". My WTF(!!) response was shared by many but we had to just smile (grimace) as this area is Parelli mecca (we all took a look at those damn rope halters and were very happy we were just doing body work and not acupuncture! Not the safest thing to be using as a restraint...and no, as a vet, I don't want to be part of your training program, I just want everyone to be safe!) - but not allowing free-choice water in FLORIDA DURING SUMMER???? :banghead:

Nice program eh? For those of you that follow Parelli - I don't me to sound condescending, but PLEASE use common sense - water is one of those things you just don't limit :no: ....personally I think the horse will appreciate you more as a caring individual if it doesn't suffer dehydration.​

from 5th Apr 2009, Bay Mare http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2163032#post2163032

Don't like Patience Posts, witholding food and water as a training method, …​

Do they really feel this is Ok because the master has spoken? Does common sense not lead them to question this dubious doctrine? Have they so very little knowledge of basic care of their horses that they are not even aware how damaging this could be? …

When you've invested so much money and you've had some success, you don't want to admit that the person you trusted duped you and is barbaric, and then there will also be those who suffer from Stockholm Syndrome: the emotional bond between victim and abuser has made the victim seem inadequate and the abuser has shown his power to control. Everyone innocent looses, horses and people; to inflate Pat Parelli's pompous ego and his pocket.

 

[Molly'sMama]

UGH,this horrifies me .


Needs you for survival? I don't think it sees you and respects you- your horse sees you as -water pump- thats all.
Thanks for the offer PP , but I'm happy with my relationship with Molly- I feel safe+comfortable with her and ensure she feels the same with me.

Can I join y'all hitting him with carrot sticks? How bout we blind him and hit him when he moves?

 

[JingleTingle]

Thank you for that reply Grayson - you have confirmed what I have long suspected - if I ever feel the need to consult an NH expert it will be a follower of Mr. Roberts and not the Ps - but that event is highly unlikely to occur at this late stage in my horsey life!

 

[MissMistletoe]

And what was the response of the owners? Did they over ride the Parelli instructions and take care of the welfare of their horses?

I'm not sure, I only heard this through a friend. I don't know these people, but I certainly hope that they did over ride them.

more fool them I would have loaded my horse gone home pausing only to call the RSPCA.
That's madness dehydration is so bad for horses and they MUST drink during ( if possible ) or after travelling what is wrong with these people .
You can be your horses leader with out nonsense like that .

I agree, I was shocked too that they would deliberately withhold a vital basic need of an animal for the sake of leadership.

 

[ebonyallen]

I would take away his food and water and water and see how he liked that

 

[Tinypony]

I emailed Parelli when the patience post thing came up, and was assured at the time that they did not condone that approach and wouldn't tell people to use it (words to that effect). I thought that was on NR but can't find it there.
There's a lot of questionable stff in Parelli, but then I wasn't impressed when I read this either:

"I was driving the mustang, in full flight, over the high desert. . . . I hadn’t reckoned on the level of panic caused by the helicopter [overhead]. In retrospect, I should have asked that it follow us only for the first 20 minutes and then back off, so we could have regrouped, read the situation as it developed.
Instead, the helicopter ran us to death. We covered nearly 100 miles in that first day, the mustang in full gallop for an hour and a half. It was an unforgettable ride. . . .
It was killing, to stay at a full gallop for an hour and a half, and a lot of the time I had to be up out of the saddle to spare the horses back. I was unsure of the ground and one stumble at that speed could have been fatal. . . . I practically ran my first horse, the Cadet, into the ground. He ended up with swollen legs but thankfully wasn’t injured.

And the fences were a horrible worry, as I’d predicted – but here the helicopter came into its own, overhauling the mustang and containing him. There were twelve miles between fences, but mustangs don’t know barbed wire, they don’t see it. . . .
I made the decision to ride through the night on a horse called Big Red Fox. Big Red Fox was a Thoroughbred, retired . . . . It was a minefield of badger holes, but we didn’t fall into any of those.
Right at daybreak, around 4:30, [Shy Boy] took me on a high-speed chase for 15 miles. It was as harrowing as anything I’d ever ridden. There were no cameras, I’d been in the saddle for near enough 24 hours non-stop, but I kept on him."

 

[SO1]

Depriving an animal of water is torture. It is completely wrong on so many levels.

 

[Pale Rider]

"I was driving the mustang, in full flight, over the high desert. . . . I hadn’t reckoned on the level of panic caused by the helicopter [overhead]. In retrospect, I should have asked that it follow us only for the first 20 minutes and then back off, so we could have regrouped, read the situation as it developed.
Instead, the helicopter ran us to death. We covered nearly 100 miles in that first day, the mustang in full gallop for an hour and a half. It was an unforgettable ride. . . .
It was killing, to stay at a full gallop for an hour and a half, and a lot of the time I had to be up out of the saddle to spare the horses back. I was unsure of the ground and one stumble at that speed could have been fatal. . . . I practically ran my first horse, the Cadet, into the ground. He ended up with swollen legs but thankfully wasn’t injured.

And the fences were a horrible worry, as I’d predicted – but here the helicopter came into its own, overhauling the mustang and containing him. There were twelve miles between fences, but mustangs don’t know barbed wire, they don’t see it. . . .
I made the decision to ride through the night on a horse called Big Red Fox. Big Red Fox was a Thoroughbred, retired . . . . It was a minefield of badger holes, but we didn’t fall into any of those.
Right at daybreak, around 4:30, [Shy Boy] took me on a high-speed chase for 15 miles. It was as harrowing as anything I’d ever ridden. There were no cameras, I’d been in the saddle for near enough 24 hours non-stop, but I kept on him."

I remember reading this Tiny, I thought then and I still think its another figment of his imagination. lol.

 

[Tnavas]

While it is not advisable to have a horse with no access to water in the wild a horse may have to travel many miles to get water and may only drink once or twice a day.

What is as bad in my mind is to strip graze a horse in an area smaller than a dressage arena - which I know many people do. Horses like to wander as they graze - they need the exercise, they need the grass - if you are worried about weight gain then stop feeding additional hard feed and hay.

If you want your horse to behave give it the space to let off steam.

 

[Tinypony]

While it is not advisable to have a horse with no access to water in the wild a horse may have to travel many miles to get water and may only drink once or twice a day.

What is as bad in my mind is to strip graze a horse in an area smaller than a dressage arena - which I know many people do. Horses like to wander as they graze - they need the exercise, they need the grass - if you are worried about weight gain then stop feeding additional hard feed and hay.

If you want your horse to behave give it the space to let off steam.

Blimey Tnavas, you're about to be taken on a huge tangent. )
In the UK there are many people who feed horses neither hay nor hard feed and still they battle against the grass. They aren't worried about weight gain in itself, but laminitis, which is all too common over here. (Before you ask, I tend to go for a larger area with grass eaten down but not too stressed, because I agree with you on th benefits of exercise).

 

[amandap]

Sadly, in my view Grayson your comparison to MR has taken the emphasis onto a who is worst of the big names.

For me the point is that this is unacceptable by any standards and by anyone, American, UK trainer, owner at home...

Hopefully this instruction will be removed from UK TV.

 

[happyhacking:)]

While it is not advisable to have a horse with no access to water in the wild a horse may have to travel many miles to get water and may only drink once or twice a day.

What is as bad in my mind is to strip graze a horse in an area smaller than a dressage arena - which I know many people do. Horses like to wander as they graze - they need the exercise, they need the grass - if you are worried about weight gain then stop feeding additional hard feed and hay.

If you want your horse to behave give it the space to let off steam.

wtf? not sure how you can come to that conclusion!!!!

Witholding water could kill a horse VERY quickly. Not letting it run around in a huge space will do it no harm

Horses in the wild will know where water sources are and WILL NOT wander far enough away from them to cause them any problems. They may well only drink once or twice a day but that is their choice!!!!!!!

 

[katie_southwest]

While it is not advisable to have a horse with no access to water in the wild a horse may have to travel many miles to get water and may only drink once or twice a day.

What is as bad in my mind is to strip graze a horse in an area smaller than a dressage arena - which I know many people do. Horses like to wander as they graze - they need the exercise, they need the grass - if you are worried about weight gain then stop feeding additional hard feed and hay.

If you want your horse to behave give it the space to let off steam.

I feed my horse no additional hay or hard feed, and she is exercised, and I still struggle to keep her weight down.
So for the moment, I will stick to my strip grazing thanks, she has ample room to wander as she grazes, or tear around if she wants...complete WITH WATER that she can drink whenever she chooses, not once or twice a day.
With regards to the thread, I know if someone made me dehydrated and wouldnt give me a drink until THEY wanted to, I sure as hell wouldnt respect them as my leader, Id be p****d off!!!!!

 

[horsesatemymoney]

It is interesting that someone has just emailed me with a transcript from their Parelli Liberty Horse Behaviour DVD, which came out in 2006. Pat Parelli is telling students 'How Horses Learn' and how they appreciate food but making them beg for their water is an even better way to go.

He states:

"Water’s one of the most powerful taming substances on the face of the earth. You can take wild mustang or wild deer and if you control the water …, you put the water …, let’s say there was no water in this pasture, none, but in this pen, you opened up the gate and you were the one, the water master in charge of it, say when you get to come in or not, what the rules are, what you have to pay, it can take very quickly, horses they’re gonna be searching for water.

Lots of people try to train horses with grain and carrots and food; it don’t tame ‘em cos they don’t need it. Horses can live for weeks without food. It’ll damage them but it’ll …, they can live but they only survive without water for a matter of days.

And so sometimes water and to build a great relationship with your horse you notice we didn’t put any automatic waters in your pens, there are no automatic waters on either one of our facilities, it’s to help you learn the importance of bringing the water to the horse.

And if you bring him a full bucket of water when he’s already got a half a bucket there you wasted a trip. If you bring it to him when he’s putting his lips through the bars going ‘please please’ (PP makes sucking noises), who’s ever had a horse wanting to drink through the …, put his neck through the bars and drink?

Well, it’s not through the bars and drink that you want, it’s the thank-you, thank-you (PP in desperate tones) for bringing me some water. It can be a very very good bonding agent, it helps and it starts right from birth. Who has the liquid for the first month of their life?"​

Personally, this transcript turns my stomach. As I said earlier, it is the sign of someone whose ego overrides the benefit to the horse. There is absolutely no need to do this to establish leadership or to control a horse, as millions of riders — classical, traditional or so-called natural — have proved by establishing leadership whilst considering and preserving the dignity and welfare of the horse.

Ok, so we put PP in a pen, and stand outside with a bottle of water and pat our sadistically taunt him with it? Is this actually in the DVD, how an earth is that permissable?!

 

[darkhorse123]

I was on his fb friends list - not anymore. And that delete was before i even got chance to post on there (family arrived so only just tried)
I can only think somoene in his camp is watching this post?

 

[Cuffey]

Tinypony
I thought Shy Boy was a Monty Roberts story of Taming a Mustang

 

[horsesatemymoney]

Quite rightly, if anybody left their horses without water for periods of time, it'd be a welfare issue and action may be taken against them, so how is this practice advocated (DVD transcript) publically and used as a way to make money?!

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

How would they know you from here? Weird. I mean my Facebook isn't Equilibrium Ireland. Strange

Terri

 

[Marydoll]

I was on his fb friends list - not anymore. And that delete was before i even got chance to post on there (family arrived so only just tried)
I can only think somoene in his camp is watching this post?

If he had a set, he'd come on and try to justify his actions, but sadly for him,he cant deprive us of food and water to push us around and bully into submission ..... More likely to be sent home a gelding with a few fleas in his ear

 

[Ibblebibble]

Sadly, in my view Grayson your comparison to MR has taken the emphasis onto a who is worst of the big names.

same here, to start comparing one name against another just makes it look like you are an MR follower out to discredit PP instead of being genuinely concerned about PP's methods

 

[darkhorse123]

How would they know you from here? Weird. I mean my Facebook isn't Equilibrium Ireland. Strange

Terri

absolutely no idea but its weird how im not a "friend" anymore so cant post

 

[Amaranta]

While it is not advisable to have a horse with no access to water in the wild a horse may have to travel many miles to get water and may only drink once or twice a day.

What is as bad in my mind is to strip graze a horse in an area smaller than a dressage arena - which I know many people do. Horses like to wander as they graze - they need the exercise, they need the grass - if you are worried about weight gain then stop feeding additional hard feed and hay.

If you want your horse to behave give it the space to let off steam.

What??? There is absolutely no comparison - do you not have laminitis in NZ?

 

[Pale Rider]

Tinypony
I thought Shy Boy was a Monty Roberts story of Taming a Mustang

It is.