Water deprivation as a training tool

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Well I'd love to let my fatties that receive no grain graze all day til their hearts content. However, they would most likely end up with lami. So during the day they are in a sacrafice paddock while grazing all night. No different than stabling. Oh wait they can move around. Even gallop around if they so wish. Please do not ever compare with holding water with actually doing something that keeps a horse from being ill. I don't do this for bonding. Silly.

Darkhorse, very strange!

Terri

 

[rubysmum]

can i ask a stupid quiestion here please
i can sort of understand [ but cannot agree with] producers and trainers who use dehydration to manage a horse and to "keep it damped down", but there is no attempt there to "be the leader"
surely, if the owner/trainer is using water deprivation in some loony way to emulate the herd leaders' role in taking the herd to drink, it seems [ & i am happy to be correcter here] that they are mis-understanding the role of the lead horse, when I have watched herd leaders in this role, they choose a safe time for the herd to move and yes - they will put herd members in their place & decide who drinks when but i have never seen a herd leader actualy use any form of water deprivation to assert leadership, so, if you deprive a horse of water, surely , it will focus on the water being offered rather than the leadership [ or lack of them] qualities - anyone else arriving with a bucket of water- will they be able to replace themselves as leaders and what happens when you allow the horse free access to water again, does the horse remember that the owner/trainer can withhold water ar any time

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Should mention my fatties have soaked hay during the day so I don't withhold food. Just less of what they don't need plus being able to move!

 

[amandap]

can i ask a stupid quiestion here please
i can sort of understand [ but cannot agree with] producers and trainers who use dehydration to manage a horse and to "keep it damped down", but there is no attempt there to "be the leader"

Imo both rationales are 'looney' and cruel. Training by water deprivation doesn't constitute ethical training whether you think it will make you the leader or make you able to lead the horse.

No questions are stupid btw.
Imo both rationales subdue and create a dependence. There are no leadership skills involved.

 

[GeeGeeboy]

I knew someone who did this with water and food to 'break' the horse down. He also tied tires onto each side of a difficult mare! Horrible man.

 

[Renvers]

What horse is going to see that as the action of a herd leader? - surely horses will just figure out that humans can be sadistic b******s and learn to distrust us more.

Maybe they dream of where PP can stick the carrot...

 

[Grayson]

… There's a lot of questionable stff in Parelli, but then I wasn't impressed when I read this either:

"I was driving the mustang, in full flight, over the high desert. . . . I hadn’t reckoned on the level of panic caused by the helicopter [overhead]. In retrospect, I should have asked that it follow us only for the first 20 minutes and then back off, so we could have regrouped, read the situation as it developed. …
Instead, the helicopter ran us to death. …"

Can you quote me the exact page and paragraphs from Shy Boy. I have spent a couple of hours searching the book and cannot find what you quote. My version is in a different order and in several places uses completely different words. This is what I have in Shy Boy, Harper Collins 1999:

Wherever the quoted text came from the order and content isn't what it in the book. Pale Rider remembers reading it too, perhaps s/he can remember the version of the book it was in. As far as the account posted being a figment of the imagination, it certainly seems that someone other than Monty Roberts made it up.

The cameras filmed all but the night-time events. I haven't seen the BBC documentary for some years, but remember that the events in the book, seem to correspond well and to be accurately described.

By the way, I wasn't attempting to compare PP and MR, just showing where I first encountered NH type methods and why I rejected one type of training and accepted another.

Violence is unnecessary and unacceptable, so over ten years I have rejected many trainers who hit horses, use electric collars and now starve or dehydrate them; fortunately I have watched and learned from even more trainers, whose methods are non-violent.

 

[Tnavas]

Yes we do have laminitis in NZ! However it doesn't seem to affect the numbers that UK now has. I am from the UK and though I've been in NZ for 25yrs, now am astounded by the number that seem to get Laminitis in the UK, especially the frost induced laminitis.

My belief is that too many people now feed processed feeds - or feeds in general, and give their horse insufficient quality exercise - how many of you can honestly say that you give your horse at least 60 mins steady trotting everyday?

Laminitis in the UK was in the past generally confined to small native ponies it was rarely ever found in horses unless concussion laminitis or induced from foaling.

My ponies all lived out 24/7 in UK on about 15 acres of grazing - they were never hard fed, did not recive supplements and were never lame or sick. We rode them everyday - except in the winter where they lived on 'Hay on the Stalk' they generally got ridden only at weekends and school holidays in the winter.

A lot has changed over the past 30 years or so with the introduction of composite feeds which contain many ingresdients that a horse would not normally choose to eat. Soy is known for its affect on the metabolic system of humans - I believe that it also has a big effect on horses which is why we now see so many metabolic problems - we are damaging the pancreas by feeding these foods.

What I was trying to point out is that in the wild horses travel many miles in a circular route that will generally take them to water only daily, they are eating herbage almost continuously so get a lot of water from their food. For those of you who live in the New Forest area you will have noticed certain ponies in different places at the same time each day - they travel.

I've watched my horses for some hours in their paddocks and they travel around grazing, generally moving most of the time. When confined to small areas, they move around less and eat more. All the strip grazing does is hammer your grass!

Consider before electric fencing! - would you not have thought the horses and ponies would be dropping like flies with Laminitis? They didn't - they exercised theselves more.We had little means to restrict grazing - we just worked them more.

While some of you may feel only watering twice daily is awful consider the number of horses in time gone by that were stalled with no ill effects and brought out to drink only every four hours.

 

[YorksG]

I had my attention brought to the study by the australian researchers, which looked at the insidence of laminitis in feral australian and New Zealand horses. They travelled long distances in dry areas, to find water and had large numbers of concussion laminitis, in wetter areas (with more grass) they travelled shorter distances and had laminitis, presumably from too much sugar. It seems that equines are just very prone to this illness. However it is my opinion that causing kidney failure by sustained dehydration is the act of a cruel and/or ignorant person and not one who should be listened to at all, in relation to any form of horsemanship.

 

[Arizahn]

See, water deprivation wouldn't teach Hippo anything other than how good I am at hiding the bodies of those who would dare to do such a thing to her!

Off to check that my quicklime supplies are sufficient...

 

[Pale Rider]

I have to say that this thread is a work of art by Grayson, and I take my hat off too you. If someone suddenly appeared in this forum and made some contentious statements, the cry of 'Troll' would be resounding from the rafters.

Starting off gently with an allegation about a well known Natural Horsemanship trainer, and investigations by animal welfare groups in Colorado, never mentioning Parelli, but allowing the thread participants to put two and two together, masterful. As soon as the mob realize its Parelli whose in for a kicking, the stage is set and we are off on the usual slag fest.

Then it turns out our hero Grayson has been making investigations for some years, armed with some unsubstanciated allegations from an anonymous informant, who has until now been cowed into silence by the mafia like influence of Parelli, Grayson chooses tonight to register on the Horse and Hound forum and unveil this expose. Pat Parelli has been killing horses by
deliberately withholding water until they die!!!

I expect this thread, load of old *******s that it is, will run and run.

Excellent thread Grayson, enjoyed every twist and turn.

 

[Tnavas]

I had my attention brought to the study by the australian researchers, which looked at the insidence of laminitis in feral australian and New Zealand horses. They travelled long distances in dry areas, to find water and had large numbers of concussion laminitis, in wetter areas (with more grass) they travelled shorter distances and had laminitis, presumably from too much sugar. It seems that equines are just very prone to this illness. However it is my opinion that causing kidney failure by sustained dehydration is the act of a cruel and/or ignorant person and not one who should be listened to at all, in relation to any form of horsemanship.

The Kaimanawa study was quite a surprise to many that so many horses had bad feet considering that they roam freely. Some of the areas these horses roam in are very lush, we have many 'spring' like flushes of growth throughout the year.

Interesting too is that dairy grazing and fertiliser cannot be blamed in these cases as the areas they travel are truly wild.

 

[Alyth]

I believe most people who have posted on this thread have got the wrong end of the stick!! It's not about water DEPRIVATION, more about beeing seen as the "good guy" because you SUPPLY the water......and of course none of you have ever made any mistakes in your horsey careers!!! Yes, Pat is an egotistical macho guy whose personality I don't like, and yes, he has made mistakes, like catwalk, but to vilify him like most of you do shows how most of you like to criticise without seeing the good. The old "throw the baby out with the bathwater" syndrome.....

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Its not about water deprivation, it's about being seen as the good guy.

Really? There are people that desperate to bond with their horses they resort to this? Well now it's easy to see why this program works for those who want to become insta horseman. To heck with hard work, understanding, patience, knowledge, and time. That takes too long. FWIW, I'm bringing my horses water 2 or 3 times at the moment. The only problem is they aren't out of water so it's a wasted trip. No I like keeping it fresh and filled. Bad horseperson.

From this thread it's obviously more than PP who believes these methods are an acceptable form of "training". But the majority don't, thankfully. So it's not necessarily the person, it's the method.

And to grazing. My horses do not live like this year round. Due to the nature of our weather these past 8 weeks it's a bit of prevention rather than a training method. As of yet I've never had to deal with Lami but common sense tells me it's ok to err on the side of caution. But hey if you'd like to compare that to withholding water as a bonding method work away.

Terri

 

[Kaylum]

I went to see a clinic many years ago. It was a 3 or 4 day one at YRC. The first day I went I was humm there is a lot of submission going on, the second day I saw it clearly, the third day I didt go as I wasn't enjoying it.

As for water deprivation I have heard people talk about this in other areas to calm horses down.

As for grazing I will repeat this, get your field checked to see what your putting into your horse. Rich grazing is not good for horses as they cannot take it. Look at how you can make your grazing better and more horse friendly, owners are quite happy to pay for hard feed well have a look at how you can make your grazing better. Rye grass is not good for a start and a lot of paddocks are sowen with this cause it's cheaper.

 

[Ladyinred]

I have to say that this thread is a work of art by Grayson, and I take my hat off too you. If someone suddenly appeared in this forum and made some contentious statements, the cry of 'Troll' would be resounding from the rafters.

Starting off gently with an allegation about a well known Natural Horsemanship trainer, and investigations by animal welfare groups in Colorado, never mentioning Parelli, but allowing the thread participants to put two and two together, masterful. As soon as the mob realize its Parelli whose in for a kicking, the stage is set and we are off on the usual slag fest.

Then it turns out our hero Grayson has been making investigations for some years, armed with some unsubstanciated allegations from an anonymous informant, who has until now been cowed into silence by the mafia like influence of Parelli, Grayson chooses tonight to register on the Horse and Hound forum and unveil this expose. Pat Parelli has been killing horses by
deliberately withholding water until they die!!!

I expect this thread, load of old *******s that it is, will run and run.

Excellent thread Grayson, enjoyed every twist and turn.

I too have been sitting back with the popcorn. One or two on this thread are already aware that 'Grayson' is a fully-subscribed, badge-wearing, banner-waving Monty fan...........

Does that throw some light on the sudden troll posting??

 

[Flame_]

Yes we do have laminitis in NZ! However it doesn't seem to affect the numbers that UK now has. I am from the UK and though I've been in NZ for 25yrs, now am astounded by the number that seem to get Laminitis in the UK, especially the frost induced laminitis.

TBF a lot of our native ponies have a genetic predisposition to EMS, they also evolved, and are still bred on bare hills and mountains to be brought down to live where all the grass and money are. Livery yards are common nowadays and in order to maintain land stretched to its limits, fertilizer "needs" to be used, which produces lush grass which really isn't good for horses. Also, its quite a new thing that low grade laminitis is even recognized in the UK. It isn't necessarily that we have more laminitics now than we did, just that now we notice subtle laminitis and call it "laminitis" even if the horse isn't rocked back on its heels, sweating with its pedal bones trying to fall through its soles. Is it possible NZ is just behind us in this respect? As to the frost point, I expect this also relates to the quality of grazing being too much for horses.

 

[Goldenstar]

I believe most people who have posted on this thread have got the wrong end of the stick!! It's not about water DEPRIVATION, more about beeing seen as the "good guy" because you SUPPLY the water......and of course none of you have ever made any mistakes in your horsey careers!!! Yes, Pat is an egotistical macho guy whose personality I don't like, and yes, he has made mistakes, like catwalk, but to vilify him like most of you do shows how most of you like to criticise without seeing the good. The old "throw the baby out with the bathwater" syndrome.....

Been seen as the good guy has no validly if what you are doing is just plain wrong.
I don't to want to have anything to do with a " training method" that resorts to such methods.
In the thread a poster said that a friend went to a Fun weekend and they arrived one day and where supposed to withhold water till the next morning there's no excuse for that what ever in any circumstances unless it's medical .
Some fun weekend ,there can be no taking bits out you like of a system that does things like that .

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

In fairness the best type of grazing for horses does not make for a pretty farm. Or present the picture in our heads of a pretty farm. We want perfectly manicured green flush with grass paddocks. Great for cattle, horses not so much. And heaven forbid you take pictures of a horse in good weight and health on sparse grazing. OMG her horses are kept like crap. Show obese horse in a 20 acre field of beautiful lush grass, great horseman!

Terri

 

[Grayson]

… Then it turns out our hero Grayson has been making investigations for some years, armed with some unsubstanciated allegations from an anonymous informant, who has until now been cowed into silence by the mafia like influence of Parelli, Grayson chooses tonight to register on the Horse and Hound forum and unveil this expose.…

Pale Rider has not read what I have written. I have been investigating the Parelli Water Torture for one week.

I had not heard of Pat Parelli until November 2001. I had not heard of his use of water deprivation until last week when Parelli World Class was aired on Horse & Country TV. I then complained to H&C and Ofcom as to show this in UK might be in breach of animal welfare legislation.

A number of people prominent in the horse world suddenly learned of my action and had obviously passed on my concerns to others, one of whom, an equine crimes unit investigator from Colorado, emailed me. Most of the content of the email I have posted here.

Pale Rider may not think it important that people are made aware of abuse disguised as training, but I do. Where is the best place to ensure that people keep up to date with current concerns in the UK horse world, to me, it's still Horse & Hound.

I rarely comment on internet fora, but when I do, I have something important to say. Trolls cause problems on the internet by either attempting to cause disruption and argument, or by posting off-topic and emotionally inflammatory comments. Do they usually use their own name? You can't help know that it is me, I am never anonymous and will be stating facts that have caused me concern. If it's gossip and chit-chat and negative comments deriding others, it isn't me.

I see nothing arguable about depriving horses of water, it is wrong. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you can disprove what I have put than I, more than anyone, would be ecstatic to be told that under no circumstances does Pat Parelli abuse horses.

As for the source of my information, it is their choice to remain anonymous. As the email says, the evidence is on record if the Parelli organisation feel the statements are libellous, but the informant is not concerned about legislative attempts to clear the name, but about threats and influence.

So please, can anyone show that the DVD does not say what is quoted, or that the TV programme didn't say what it did? It would be a relief to me, and to thousands of thirsty horses, whose owners think they are showing them love and leadership.

If you don't think water deprivation matters, troll me as much as you like; if you do think it matters, make things change. Only we can make the world better for horses, they can't.

 

[Grayson]

I'd rather wave a banner for Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling and Ben Hart, whose clinics I have attended. Those who know me, will now think this a little odd. I have been totally critical in the past of both of them, yet I would send them a horse to train without a qualm: I have never seen or heard of them abusing horses.

I could give you a long list of trainers to whom I wouldn't send my horses because they think hitting is okay. Parelli was down on the hitters' list, but since last week I have moved him from the 'violence through ignorance' category to be the sole occupant of the 'considered and deliberate abuse' one.

I am sickened that anyone could be so perverted as to find this thread entertaining. How can you make entertainment from horse abuse? Oh … sorry to be so naïve: Parelli can and does.

 

[Wagtail]

It is a disgrace that someone who advocates the torturing of animals like PP is allowed to continue making money out of gullible people. Why can nothing be done about it? How does he manage to wriggle out of every misdemeanor and come up smelling of roses? I remember my sister who is an avid follower of Parelli,and I would guess that she must have spent in excess of £20k on it over the years, being in tears over the Catwalk incident, and yet has been persuaded that all is well and continues to follow the machine. It upsets her greatly if I say anything bad about it. Yes, it is like a cult, and followers appear to be brainwashed.

 

[Ladyinred]

The content is certainly far from entertaining and I doubt there will be any disagreement on that statement.

However it is entertaining to sit and watch the NH followers come out from the wordwork in support, and the cynic in me wonders if there is any connection between this and the desire to deflect attention from the old but still relevant video of our friend Monty and JFK which has been resurrected both on Facebook and on the IHDG. Sort of bash Parelli and no one will notice the other disgrace in the maelstrom of replies and disgust??

 

[amandap]

The content is certainly far from entertaining and I doubt there will be any disagreement on that statement.

However it is entertaining to sit and watch the NH followers come out from the wordwork in support, and the cynic in me wonders if there is any connection between this and the desire to deflect attention from the old but still relevant video of our friend Monty and JFK which has been resurrected both on Facebook and on the IHDG. Sort of bash Parelli and no one will notice the other disgrace in the maelstrom of replies and disgust??

Your first sentence is somewhat diminished by your agenda.

In the case Grayson has highlighted PP is teaching witholding water until a horse is very thirsty day in day out on UK TV. Do we really want this over shadowed by inter personal philosophy gripes? I for one do not.

 

[Ladyinred]

Your first sentence is somewhat diminished by your agenda.

In the case Grayson has highlighted PP is teaching witholding water until a horse is very thirsty day in day out on UK TV. Do we really want this over shadowed by inter personal philosophy gripes? I for one do not.

Fair comment. The water witholding is a terrible issue and needs addressing. Possibly a different user name would have been a plan to avoid battered old cynics like me seeing the worst!

 

[Grayson]

… the cynic in me wonders if there is any connection between this and the desire to deflect attention from the old but still relevant video of our friend Monty and JFK which has been resurrected both on Facebook and on the IHDG. …

I wrote to H&C and started a thread about the Parelli abuse on the IHDG eleven days ago. It gave full details of my objections quoting the relevant Animal Welfare legislation that may have been breached and my full name and where I live in. My wife commented on Facebook about it on May 16 too.

Now the anonymous Ladyinred thinks that the purpose of this thread is solely to deflect attention from the content of a thread on the IHDG, started yesterday, about Monty Roberts doing Join–Up with a Tennessee Walking Horse in 2006. I started the discussion eleven days ago and the thread about the TWH started yesterday!

The reason that I did not post here for ten days, was, as I said, because I only received the email on Friday, the day before I started the thread here. The post on the IHDG was to inform people of my actions. The post on here was to inform a wider audience of the Parelli organisation's.

Had I started this thread on the IHDG, then your cynicism might have had some justification; as I posted it here, it has no justification at all. However it does indicate where your priorities lie and they are not with the good of the horse.

 

[Grayson]

Whilst researching the TWH post and video that she mentioned, I seem to have cross posted with Ladyinred and she may have revised her priorities, so the sentence above may no longer apply. I am pleased to see that is so. However why should I suddenly start posting anonymously? I will give my name to what I believe is right.

I don't know who Ladyinred is, nor why she is trying to hide. I respect her wish to remain anonymous, though my personal view is that anonymity will always diminish the power of what you say.

 

[Amaranta]

Your first sentence is somewhat diminished by your agenda.

In the case Grayson has highlighted PP is teaching witholding water until a horse is very thirsty day in day out on UK TV. Do we really want this over shadowed by inter personal philosophy gripes? I for one do not.

Well said, ftr I follow neither camp, I am not even NH, and I am totally disgusted (yet again!) with PP, to try to muddy the waters with political jibes is indefensible. The old attack is the best means of defence tack.

 

[Amaranta]

I believe most people who have posted on this thread have got the wrong end of the stick!! It's not about water DEPRIVATION, more about beeing seen as the "good guy" because you SUPPLY the water......and of course none of you have ever made any mistakes in your horsey careers!!! Yes, Pat is an egotistical macho guy whose personality I don't like, and yes, he has made mistakes, like catwalk, but to vilify him like most of you do shows how most of you like to criticise without seeing the good. The old "throw the baby out with the bathwater" syndrome.....

Wrong end of the stick? I don't care what the reasoning is, if you have to wait until a horse is begging for water in order to look like a 'good guy' then you are NOT a horseman end of. What you fail to understand is that because he has put himself in a position of power, his little brainwashed underlings will think this is perfectly OK. It is not.

PP is being vilified because he has set himself up as a God within his own little world, he has NEVER EVER admitted to making a mistake, the Catwalk incident was not his fault but the fault of the audience who 'did not understand'.

There was never any baby to throw out in this bath water, PP is not a horseman anymore, he may have started off as one, but the money has got in the way, he thinks he knows it all and a good horseman never stops learning.

.

 

[Ladyinred]

Whilst researching the TWH post and video that she mentioned, I seem to have cross posted with Ladyinred and she may have revised her priorities, so the sentence above may no longer apply. I am pleased to see that is so. However why should I suddenly start posting anonymously? I will give my name to what I believe is right.

I don't know who Ladyinred is, nor why she is trying to hide. I respect her wish to remain anonymous, though my personal view is that anonymity will always diminish the power of what you say.

Not quite sure why my perceived anonymity seems to present you with such a problem, this is the second mention in two posts! Are we not all strangers to most others here?

However what I would really like to add is that I have also seen a Clinton Anderson programme on H & C TV where he does a similar thing. He worked a young mare very hard in full sun and then tied her up, still tacked, and also still in full sun, with no access to water so she 'could think about things' Whilst I realise this isn't water deprivation on the same scale it still is far from good and also gives less than knowledgeable people the idea that this is the way forward.

Sadly I can't remember where, but one forum ran a similar thread some time ago with the insinuation that PP witheld water. The reply from PP acolytes was the usual refrain of us lesser mortals 'not understanding' If I can find the thread I will message you with a link to it, but think it might have been on a forum no longer with us.