Water deprivation as a training tool

[Natch]

Wow.

I have a friend who is an ex-pat in Spain, who says that in some parts of Spain they don't see why horses should need water available 24/7, so they simply take water to them once every couple of days. She is considered "typical soft English" by many of the locals.

There are several countries around the world who believe that giving a horse or donkey water, makes it lazy - I *think* Egypt is one such country (although like everywhere there will be some who do and some who don't).

Witholding water from horses is sadly not new, nor limited to Parelli.

The sad thing is, that I can see that bringing a thirsty horse water would act as positive reinforcement for the horse to want to go to the trainer. I dispute that it makes the horse think of the human as a leader or the boss, or someone that he wants to be with when he is not thirsty. The horse will simply think "Ooh, person, I associate that with relief from thirst. I am thirsty, therefore I will go to the person for relief." Not some undying gratitude for how wonderful a leader that person is. And just because it is (debatably) effective conditioning, does not make it ethical. Using an electric cattle prod is effective. Smacking your child with a bit of wood with a nail in is effective. Torturing terror suspects is effective. Effective does not necessarily equal ethical.

The quote saying its no use using carrots or grain... well then what's going on when people train their horses using treat training? It's undeniably effective, and it works on the exact same thing - positive reinforcement. But water for training makes little sense. If half of us took a clicker and a bucket of water, and the other half took a clicker and some carrots, who do you think would have to give up training first? After one or two sips the water trained horse would get bored. It is not effective beyond a mild association.

So its not effective, and its not ethical.

Add to that the undeniable fact that people are training very nicely behaved horses who do not show any sort of fear response, and who can do brilliant work at liberty without much or any equipment, without violence and without depriving their horse of anything, and I can't see how Parelli can justify his methods.

Quite how such a big name promoting his style as "let's all be kind to our horses and build a relationship with them" manages to continue to have any fans beyond this is quite frankly proof to me that some people just don't think for themselves.

 

[Grayson]

Not quite sure why my perceived anonymity seems to present you with such a problem, this is the second mention in two posts! Are we not all strangers to most others here?

I was replying to

Fair comment. The water witholding is a terrible issue and needs addressing. Possibly a different user name would have been a plan to avoid battered old cynics like me seeing the worst!

I have also seen a Clinton Anderson programme on H & C TV where he does a similar thing. He worked a young mare very hard in full sun and then tied her up, still tacked, and also still in full sun, with no access to water so she 'could think about things' …

I too put Clinton Anderson on my rejects list for hitting foals and using electric collars. The good thing about the TV exposure is that you see the worst and can reject it. The worst thing about it is that some see the worst and accept it.

 

[Tinypony]

Can you quote me the exact page and paragraphs from Shy Boy. I have spent a couple of hours searching the book and cannot find what you quote. My version is in a different order and in several places uses completely different words. This is what I have in Shy Boy, Harper Collins 1999:

Wherever the quoted text came from the order and content isn't what it in the book. Pale Rider remembers reading it too, perhaps s/he can remember the version of the book it was in. As far as the account posted being a figment of the imagination, it certainly seems that someone other than Monty Roberts made it up.

The cameras filmed all but the night-time events. I haven't seen the BBC documentary for some years, but remember that the events in the book, seem to correspond well and to be accurately described.

By the way, I wasn't attempting to compare PP and MR, just showing where I first encountered NH type methods and why I rejected one type of training and accepted another.

Violence is unnecessary and unacceptable, so over ten years I have rejected many trainers who hit horses, use electric collars and now starve or dehydrate them; fortunately I have watched and learned from even more trainers, whose methods are non-violent.

I hope you're not suggesting that I made the quote up Grayson. I was given Shy Boy for Christmas and sold it at a bootfair some time afterwards. I remember cringing as I read it and struggling to understand then why people thought it was such a wonderful story. The quote above would have either come from the book, or from Monty's website at the time. I don't make anything up and I wouldn't have quoted anything unless it was clearly written by Monty. I've been known to sit with an open book beside me to refer to, particularly if I can think of something that might help someone (for example, Mark Rashid has a lot of good stuff). Even watching the documentary, even without the dramatic words I quoted, I think the risk to the horses involved in that documentary far outweighed any benefit. I think the only benefit was to Monty's as it raised his profile just a bit more.

Monty's words do change in different publications of course. there are examples of that in different publications of The Man Who Listens to Horses, which have been documented many times.

But this thread isn't about Monty, and the only reason I brought him up was because, as said earlier, it suddenly seemed to become a thread about promoting one trainer by spreading news of wrongdoing by another. I'm no Parelli fan, but I'd like to see something a bit more concrete here, not just second hand reporting. These are serious allegations.

 

[Patterdale]

Is the transcript not concrete enough?

 

[Ladyinred]

I hope you're not suggesting that I made the quote up Grayson. I was given Shy Boy for Christmas and sold it at a bootfair shortly afterwards. I remember cringing as I read it and struggling to understand then why people thought it was such a wonderful story. The quote above would have either come from the book, or from Monty's website at the time. I don't make anything up and I wouldn't have quoted anything unless it was clearly written by Monty. Even watching the documentary, even without the dramatic words I quoted, I think the risk to the horses involved in that documentary far outweighed any benefit. I think the only benefit was to Monty's as it raised his profile just a bit more.

Monty's words do change in different publications of course. there are examples of that in different publications of The Man Who Listens to Horses, which have been documented many times.

But this thread isn't about Monty, and the only reason I brought him up was because, as said earlier, it suddenly seemed to become a thread about promoting one trainer by spreading news of wrongdoing by another. I'm no Parelli fan, but I'd like to see something a bit more concrete here, not just second hand reporting. These are serious allegations.

And that was also my concern, given the OP. I actually don't think it was so much about promoting Monty as deflecting interest in the resurfacing of another old video on YouTube which seems to have reached the attention of forums and also Facebook.

But, for whatever reason the OP posted this thread he is indubitably correct in that NO horse should have water witheld as a training method. EVER.

 

[Tinypony]

Is the transcript not concrete enough?

I'm not refering to the transcript from the DVD, I am asking about the allegations that horses died. ? Is there proof of this? Evidence of a failed prosecution? How do we know it's true?

 

[amandap]

Is the transcript not concrete enough?

I have been assuming it is. I hope I haven't been naive? I don't watch H&C etc. so haven't seen any of it on TV.

There isn't any chance of me getting concrete first hand evidence unless I go the PP's ranches.

ps. From Tinypony's post I have misunderstood. I imagine Grayson is confident to put such a serious allegation in the public domain.

 

[Grayson]

I hope you're not suggesting that I made the quote up Grayson. I was given Shy Boy for Christmas and sold it at a bootfair shortly afterwards. … I don't make anything up and I wouldn't have quoted anything unless it was clearly written by Monty. …
I'm no Parelli fan, but I'd like to see something a bit more concrete here, not just second hand reporting. These are serious allegations.

I am stating clearly that you did not get the quote from the book Shy Boy. You have now confirmed that you didn't as you no longer own a copy.

So it seems that you took an electronic quote, for which you have no source and which in no way represents Monty's words in Shy Boy, and is not supported by the BBC Documentary Shy Boy, which that part of the book was based on, and you used it to present an unfavourable impression of the author. That is worse than "making up a quote".

In what way is a transcript for a DVD second-hand reporting? I quoted the source and just as I did with your quote, anyone with the DVD can check and disprove it. Perhaps you would prefer to hear the extract from Pat Parelli Shows How to Lead a Horse instead. Not quite as plain as day, more the nudge-nudge-know-what-I-mean approach, but it's there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MudT3viHABA

 

[Patterdale]

Don't do that amandap, you'll leave with your head in a spin and a 20k subscription to the program

 

[amandap]

That video clip Grayson put up on leading has been up for discussion recently and I've thought a lots about it. My take (knowing zip about Parelli) is that video infers you aim to get the horse to want to work with you. I don't see he means literally 'make him want water' in that clip. I take that meaning in isolation to other stuff which I have not had sight of.

ps. No chance patterdale, I'm skint. lol

 

[zaminda]

Anyone who has ever tried to do anything whilst seriously dehydrated would tell you that water deprivation is wrong. Having heard stories of how they used to break polo ponies in argentina in a similar fashion, and how backward these methods are, how can the 'modern' PP brigade say this is a good thing? I would never leave a horse without access to water, and its my biggest concern at rides to keep horses hydrated. Its not a surprise they don't argue about doing anything, their muscles are probably cramped to hell, and they are struggling to move. Especially if they use the deep sand round pensI have seen.

 

[Grayson]

The member of the Colorado Equine Abuse Investigators has already said that they have tried to get robust action taken. It is my informant's choice to be anonymous, it is also up to the Parelli organisation to accuse them of libel, which of course they won't as the evidence has been recorded and the last thing they would want would be for it to come out in a court of law.

My informant's words, in answer to your questions:

At the time we were deeply involved in the humane world and founded the first national school on Horse Abuse Investigations. For 15 years we worked with animal control officers from all over the county and received a prestigious national award for “outstanding work in the field of humane education.” with American Humane. I mention this because I want people to know that I am not a "flake." I know horses and I was trained in this field.

We blew the whistle with the Colorado State Vet and everybody we could think of. The Executive Director of the local shelter warned us to be careful because he heard that reprisals from Parelli...actually physical threats had happened in other situations. Because of the way the laws are written and his power there was nothing to be done.

In addition to the two horses that died a border collie had to be euthanized. The dog didn't come when Pat whistled him off some cows. He got a hold of the dog and tied a hind leg under the collar and turned it loose for the rest of the day. He tore his hind leg up so badly he had to be put down and all because of this guy’s ego. I had the woman who called to tell me about the dog say that no one stood up to Pat and help that dog. Why didn't anyone say, “Stop it or I'll turn you in?” Over a hundred people witnessed the dog situation.​

 

[cptrayes]

How would they know you from here? Weird. I mean my Facebook isn't Equilibrium Ireland. Strange

Terri

Whatever machine you are on uses the same IP address. They know if they can hack a trace to that, and they probably can.

 

[Tinypony]

I am stating clearly that you did not get the quote from the book Shy Boy. You have now confirmed that you didn't as you no longer own a copy.

So it seems that you took an electronic quote, for which you have no source and which in no way represents Monty's words in Shy Boy, and is not supported by the BBC Documentary Shy Boy, which that part of the book was based on, and you used it to present an unfavourable impression of the author. That is worse than "making up a quote".

In what way is a transcript for a DVD second-hand reporting? I quoted the source and just as I did with your quote, anyone with the DVD can check and disprove it. Perhaps you would prefer to hear the extract from Pat Parelli Shows How to Lead a Horse instead. Not quite as plain as day, more the nudge-nudge-know-what-I-mean approach, but it's there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MudT3viHABA

Grayson, I took the "electronic quote" from a post made by myself on New Rider, where I posted as Crystal Fire (thanks for the link). ) I am pretty certain that at the time I had my copy of Shy Boy propped up by the computer, but it was rather a long time ago to remember. I'll re-state my opinion - I think Monty's treatment of Shy Boy in that long chase, and the risks he took with Shy Boy's safety and that of the horses he rode was unaccepatable.

Right, I was not querying if what has been described from a DVD can be substantiated - I meant to refer to this:

"Yesterday, I received an email from someone in US involved in investigating equine welfare crimes for twenty years. My informant was at the Colorado farm of the trainer in the H&C programme, and noticed
"… the horses were kept in outside pens with no shade. There was no water kept in the pens. The "pen" horses were led by the humans twice a day to drink. [The trainer's] ranch is at high elevation and the sun can be brutal. When I was there the horses were fed hay cubes. Hay cubes + high elevation + no water or shelter = poor management."
The email tells me that two years later on, matters at the trainer's ranch had gone from bad to worse:
"… I received a call from a vet who had performed two necropsies on two horses that died that week. They died of renal failure due to water deprivation. There were 30 plus head of horses turned out in a large pasture with no water."
My informant is clear about the reason for the renal failure: the trainer
"would whistle, open a gate and let the horses drink for 15 minutes and then they would run the horses out."
There was a 300 gallon water container for the 30 horses*, the dominant horses would get their fill, horses number 29 and 30 died of thirst after two days! The Colorado State Vet was informed and 'investigations' began, but failed to result in prosecution on that occasion.
"Because of the way the laws are written and [the trainer's] power there was nothing to be done."
The email ended:
"I get a little heated up when I hear these things are still continuing. [The trainer] is nothing short of an egotistical bully. His media market machine is so powerful they crush any criticism. They are tricky, too, as they have allied themselves with the Humane Society of the United States...what a perfect cover. However, I know what I know...and I know that whatever "talent" he may have had as a horseman is sullied and tainted by his cruel ego. It has nothing to do with the love of horses and their wellbeing.

It sickens me. People are stupidly naive following the Pied Piper without "seeing" the reality.
The horses are the innocent victims....they are prisoners of their jailers. At every turn we must be advocates for their wellbeing.

From someone who has witnessed things as above first hand."
My informant wishes as many people as possible to be aware of what is happening but has so far received physical threats and been warned of reprisals from the training organisation. If there is a ground swell of support and any legal case made to deny the allegations, my informant will proudly stand up in court as a witness to the abuse observed."

I'll apologise in advance if this incident and the death of the two horses has been substantiated somewhere in this thread, I had a read and couldn't find it, but might have missed it.

However "effective" the withholding of water might be, there will always be better ways to train a horse. Anyone who would seek to justify this surely needs their head tested? Wild horses might have to trek for days to find water, but that doesn't mean that it does them a lot of good, or that the domesticated equine should be artifically put through it.

p.s. Let's hope there is a libel action, then the truth will out.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

cptrayes,

Kind of scary, but at the same time, if you have nothing to hide, it's not something you do. Very cultish behaviour alright.

I guess they can see from my address I am not a supporter!

Terri

 

[cptrayes]

cptrayes,

Kind of scary, but at the same time, if you have nothing to hide, it's not something you do. Very cultish behaviour alright.

I guess they can see from my address I am not a supporter!

Terri

Me neither. I am not into smacking my horses with a lead rope clip under their chin, driving them away from me because I am too scared of them to have them walk at my shoulder, dehydrating them to force them to do what I want them to do, (all in videos) tying their foreleg to their mouth to allow me to bridle them (done at a public demonstration) etc etc etc . I think the whole Parelli thing stinks and I pity the gullible owners who are desperately seeking leadership and who do not understand the harm those methods could cause

 

[amandap]

However "effective" the withholding of water might be, there will always be better ways to train a horse. Anyone who would seek to justify this surely needs their head tested? Wild horses might have to trek for days to find water, but that doesn't mean that it does them a lot of good, or that the domesticated equine should be artifically put through it.

This!

We cannot equate the ability to survive or cope with water not to hand in feral horses with domestic ones. Domestic horses are trapped in stables, fields and paddocks, they can't wander off to find water when they need it.
We want horses in good or peak condition don't we not dehydrated?

 

[Natch]

"Yesterday, I received an email from someone in US involved in investigating equine welfare crimes for twenty years. My informant was at the Colorado farm of the trainer in the H&C programme, and noticed
"… the horses were kept in outside pens with no shade. There was no water kept in the pens. The "pen" horses were led by the humans twice a day to drink. [The trainer's] ranch is at high elevation and the sun can be brutal. When I was there the horses were fed hay cubes. Hay cubes + high elevation + no water or shelter = poor management."
The email tells me that two years later on, matters at the trainer's ranch had gone from bad to worse:
"… I received a call from a vet who had performed two necropsies on two horses that died that week. They died of renal failure due to water deprivation. There were 30 plus head of horses turned out in a large pasture with no water."
My informant is clear about the reason for the renal failure: the trainer
"would whistle, open a gate and let the horses drink for 15 minutes and then they would run the horses out."
There was a 300 gallon water container for the 30 horses*, the dominant horses would get their fill, horses number 29 and 30 died of thirst after two days! The Colorado State Vet was informed and 'investigations' began, but failed to result in prosecution on that occasion.
"Because of the way the laws are written and [the trainer's] power there was nothing to be done."
The email ended:
"I get a little heated up when I hear these things are still continuing. [The trainer] is nothing short of an egotistical bully. His media market machine is so powerful they crush any criticism. They are tricky, too, as they have allied themselves with the Humane Society of the United States...what a perfect cover. However, I know what I know...and I know that whatever "talent" he may have had as a horseman is sullied and tainted by his cruel ego. It has nothing to do with the love of horses and their wellbeing.

It sickens me. People are stupidly naive following the Pied Piper without "seeing" the reality.
The horses are the innocent victims....they are prisoners of their jailers. At every turn we must be advocates for their wellbeing.

From someone who has witnessed things as above first hand."
My informant wishes as many people as possible to be aware of what is happening but has so far received physical threats and been warned of reprisals from the training organisation. If there is a ground swell of support and any legal case made to deny the allegations, my informant will proudly stand up in court as a witness to the abuse observed."

Sorry to quote you tinypony when it wasn't your quote originally, but my concern is that this could have been created by anybody - there appears to be no proof, bar Grayson telling us it is true. I am telling you all now honestly*, that my room mate has scratched my car and is denying it. I want everybody all over the internet to know what a deceitful manipulative car-damager he is, yet 100s of people trust him with their car every week (he is a mechanic).
What's the difference?

*um, yeah, perhaps not.

Surely it is up to the anonymous person whom the quote originated from to pursue the matter through the police if there have been physical threats, or for a welfare organisation or the vet to pursue an animal cruelty case. I'm not sure how an anonymous quote on the interweb is going to change anything at the premesis where this happened. If the anonymous person remains anonymous, how would the organisation in question raise a libel case? With great difficulty.

What do you actually want from this thread, Grayson?

 

[Grayson]

…
What do you actually want from this thread, Grayson?

If PP wants to sue me, then that's fine. I can produce the name of the informant who shows the records of visits to premises, reports handed in concerning abuse and witnesses statements that shows what was said is true.

Of course this will never happen. What such bullies never want is to be called to account in a court of law, as would be the case if he had to say there is no evidence of these events taking place, when his DVD alone shows it is highly likely and the Colorado records show that the events occurred.

What do I want? Exactly what I wanted on May 16th, when I wrote to Horse & Country. I dread to think how many people have caused their horses to be thirsty this weekend as they have a wonderful opportunity to try out the new leadership technique shown on the TV programme.

The fact that anyone could ask what I want, shows how desperate is the need. To the normal horse–handlers amongst us, access to water is a horse's basic right. Only the deluded would ask why I thought it necessary to draw wide attention to a person or programme that demands that we should withhold it, everyone else can see that it is cruel.

 

[Natch]

If PP wants to sue me, then that's fine. I can produce the name of the informant who shows the records of visits to premises, reports handed in concerning abuse and witnesses statements that shows what was said is true.

Of course this will never happen. What such bullies never want is to be called to account in a court of law, as would be the case if he had to say there is no evidence of these events taking place, when his DVD alone shows it is highly likely and the Colorado records show that the events occurred.

What do I want? Exactly what I wanted on May 16th, when I wrote to Horse & Country. I dread to think how many people have caused their horses to be thirsty this weekend as they have a wonderful opportunity to try out the new leadership technique shown on the TV programme.

The fact that anyone could ask what I want, shows how desperate is the need. To the normal horse–handlers amongst us, access to water is a horse's basic right. Only the deluded would ask why I thought it necessary to draw wide attention to a person or programme that demands that we should withhold it, everyone else can see that it is cruel.

I really don't think there was any need for the passive-aggressive name calling, and I would quite like an apology for that please. In no way do I feel that it is acceptable for a horse to be deprived of water for training purposes. I think every other poster has unanimously agreed with you on that.

I don't actually think anybody will get sued, because this is no more nuisance to him than a single fly landing on a horse's skin - he'll just twitch it off and carry on as before. He certainly did with Catwalk, and that was a hugely publicised event.

The purpose of your post has been questioned by other posters too. It could have been a mere rant, a way of spreading awareness of the issue, a hope that it will somehow cause the organisation in question to start legal action, or for legal action to be brought against them, a hope that it will somehow cause people to defect to another trainer's methods, a personal grudge, and no doubt some other possibilities. I asked (didn't presume), because there may have been a better way to address your concerns depending on your goal.

Your concern for horse welfare is laudable, as is your attempt to publicise the dangers of water deprivation. I am somewhat dubious about whether any horse owners are really stupid enough to follow advice which goes directly against most people in this country's knowledge of basic horse welfare, but then there were certain hardcore Parelli-ites who stuck up for the big cheese when he abused catwalk, so it has happened before. The majority of users on HHO are anti-parelli, some middle of the road and very few are pro. Perhaps posting on some of the milder horse forums (although you may have already done so) would mean your message got to those who might be naieve enough to attempt it?

 

[JingleTingle]

Perhaps posting on some of the milder horse forums (although you may have already done so) would mean your message got to those who might be naieve enough to attempt it?

I have to say that your confidence in the common sense and lack of gullibility of ALL users of this forum is a perfect example of just how naive some people on here are?

This may be a very large horse forum, and there may well be some very sensible and knowledgeable members, but there are a huge amount of posters that display their lack of knowledge and vulnerability to the huge media machine of certain trainers on a daily basis via their posting.

Because H&H isnt perceived as a mild mannered place to be I cant see that as a reason for the OP to not attempt to draw their concerns to a large and well known horse forum. Why wouldn't they?

 

[Grayson]

I really don't think there was any need for the passive-aggressive name calling, and I would quite like an apology for that please. …

If you chose to attribute "Only the deluded would ask why I thought it necessary to draw wide attention [to despicable behaviour]" to yourself, then you may have labelled yourself unnecessarily, as you put yourself in the normal-horsehandlers group when you wrote, "In no way do I feel that it is acceptable for a horse to be deprived of water for training purposes."

The rest of your post is a little confusing as I already explained why I chose to start a thread on this forum in post #110. I also clearly stated that I do not rant but present relevant facts. I could not have hoped to invoke a libel action as I named no-one. So I fail to see how you draw the conclusions that you do about my possible motives for starting this thread.

Soft and hard horse forums, I didn't expect to find, nor would I know where to look for them. I assumed that if the content of this thread were of interest to others, they would disseminate it further. I had not expected childish bickering, but then I suppose that if I thought I might encounter Parelli supporters, I should have.

As to who is naïve enough to attempt water deprivation, that is impossible to judge, even the most educated can be naïve when it comes to following the advice of those who appear to be experts. In view of that, one should assume those naïve enough will be a large number. It is a sad fact of life that the gullible are in the majority.

 

[Clodagh]

I haven't read all the replies so sorry if it has been said but I understand that Monty Roberts withheld water from the mustang he broke for the tv a few years ago. Can't remember the name of the program but I'm sure I heard they kept the horse moving all night so it couldn't drink, eat or rest, and hey presto it was being ridden in 2 days or something.

 

[Grayson]

I haven't read all the replies so sorry if it has been said but I understand that Monty Roberts withheld water from the mustang he broke for the tv a few years ago. Can't remember the name of the program but I'm sure I heard they kept the horse moving all night so it couldn't drink, eat or rest, and hey presto it was being ridden in 2 days or something.

I think you need to watch the DVD again then. You will see where he is resting and stopped and where he drinks. You could also read where he mentions these events in his book — which coincides with the filmed account.

Paragraph 4 of page 156 of Shy Boy is about Shy Boy taking Monty and The Cadet to every single water hole, stream and cattle trough on the route. Monty says, "It reminded me of how good mustangs are at finding water in the wild."

Page 157 recounts Shy Boy moving slowly grazing and drinking throughout the night. Then in para 7 Monty tells us:

By midnight or so, Shy Boy had filled himself with good grass and seemed to assume a more relaxed and restful attitude. I was happy to oblige and relieve Big Red Fox of my weight. The three of us could rest for fifteen minute stretches.​

Don't forget, he is accompanied all the time by a large BBC film crew.

On page 158, at 4.30 am, with the sun coming up, Shy Boy goes from steady trot to canter in the next two paragraphs then at five a.m. goes back to a steady trot and takes them straight through the base camp as he headed for a water trough. Monty dismounted, broke the ice on the water trough and Big Red Fox drank, they moved back and Shy Boy came to the trough, drank and wandered off to graze.

I don't know where you got your information, but the book says otherwise and of course this is evidenced by the BBC documentary. I have quoted my sources, please let us have yours.

 

[sv-masterchef]

well, i for one am glad that Grayson has posted this information. It is up to the idividual reading it to make up there own mind about its validity, but we are all entitled to an opinion.
I have been very dubious about Parelli and his methods for years, it just doesn't seem right. As someone who has had years of experience around all types of horses,his performances do not make pleasant viewing and are akin to circus tricks.
Real horsmanship does not involve cruelty.

 

[Tinypony]

Grayson, please understand that there are people here who would leap in and support you. Complaining about stupid advice on a training DVD or television programme is one thing, but to get behind a protest about horses dying with no action taken is something else. There are, unbelievably, people out there who would justify this withholding water. However, horses dying as a result of being denied water, now that's something that maybe people could do something about.

 

[Tinypony]

well, i for one am glad that Grayson has posted this information. It is up to the idividual reading it to make up there own mind about its validity, but we are all entitled to an opinion.
I have been very dubious about Parelli and his methods for years, it just doesn't seem right. As someone who has had years of experience around all types of horses,his performances do not make pleasant viewing and are akin to circus tricks.
Real horsmanship does not involve cruelty.

You know, I don't think I've read anyone saying they are against what Grayson is doing in any way. This is a great forum for campaigns because it is so big and has a wide readership. There are just a couple of us asking if the claims being made by a third party about the horses that died can be proved in any way. Seems a fair question to me, even if the answer is no. ?

 

[Grayson]

… There are just a couple of us asking if the claims being made by a third party about the horses that died can be proved in any way. Seems a fair question to me, even if the answer is no. ?

Yes, the Colorado Equine Abuse investigators have the vet's report on record and my informant has access to them.

 

[SavingGrace]

Only if I am allowed to chase him around with a ***** carrot stick

I would like to chase him around with more than a carrot stick!

 

[wilder]

this will blow over pp will probably release a statement with some rubbish and all his followers will then ooh and ahh and say what a wonderful man he is, pretty much the same as monty and twh he releases a statement spouting his reasons and all his followers forgive him, the only people i have known to withhold water is dodgy dealers when selling a horse that is unsellable otherwise
why do these people follow blindly, question when they think something is wrong then accept anything that is said by the trainer if you are questioning the trainers ethics or morals then usually something is wrong