Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[ROG]

Thanks for the advice ROG, I am on autotrader already car shopping

Little tip for getting weights if not shown on adverts for vehicles....

GOOGLE - kgs gvw kerb towing *********** - insert details of vehicle such as nissan xtrail 2005 instead of the ******** and open a seperate window so you dont lose the advert

 

[MrsMozart]

You or D can supervise D1 if you passed your car tests before 1997
All B licence holders have a B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence

That means they can tow a B+E combination either loaded or empty and on a motorway providing they adhere to these rules:-
Supervising driver must be age 21+ and held B+E for 3+ years
L plates on front of vehicle and rear of trailer
Correct insurance for B+E learner - check with current insurer

If the trailer is not plated and there is no way to find out from its manufacturer then the MAM will be what all the tyre load ratings on the tyres add up to
Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.

Age 18 for ANY LGV including C1 (3.5 to 7.5 tonnes) but that can be obtained by getting LGV C as C1 is as subcategory of C - so the 18 year old can go direct from B to C
If all the driver wants is C1 and the trainer does it with a large 5 tonne van then go for that but if they are using a 7.5 tonne lorry then go for C as there is virtually no difference
Passing the LGV rigid test C1 or C will not give B+E
To get a +E then a +E test must be passed
Passing a +E test higher than B+E will automatically give B+E so passing a +E test in any C category will give B+E

If anything I've said is still not clear then please say so because its not your fault but mine as I need to find a way to put it to you in a way that makes it clear for you

Thank you

So, to make it clear in my head (D is laughing at me... ):

Both D and I can sit with D1 (once she has passed the B test) - L plates, insurance for B+E learner, can go on the motorways;

Once D1 has passed the B+E, she can tow Hugh the Huge Trailer with our Disco. As an aside, the trailer tyres are rated to carry 900kg each, so the total is 3,600kg, though it's limited by the Disco's towing capacity of 3,500kg;

Once D1 has passed the B test (which is the normal car test), she can drive up to (and including?) 3.5t lorry;

For her to drive more than 3.5t, she has to take the C1 test - I got a little confused at this point... What does the C1 test allow her to drive up to?

The other thing I was a bit unsure of was the +E. I understand that the following will allow D1 to drive the Disco and tow Hugh the Huge Trailer (3,500kg):

B+E; or
C+E (or C1+E),

but that a simple C or C1 will not allow her to tow HtHT. The confused bit was if she's passed the C+E, can she drive a 7.5t and tow a trailer, or does the weight of the whole lot have to be 7.5t (loaded)?

Thank you again ROG . You really are a star and deserve something really nice

 

[ROG]

Thank you

So, to make it clear in my head (D is laughing at me... ):

Both D and I can sit with D1 (once she has passed the B test) - L plates, insurance for B+E learner, can go on the motorways;
YES - and fully loaded

Once D1 has passed the B+E, she can tow Hugh the Huge Trailer with our Disco.
YES

As an aside, the trailer tyres are rated to carry 900kg each, so the total is 3,600kg, though it's limited by the Disco's towing capacity of 3,500kg;
YES - Authorities will take the max MAM as being 3500 because of the type of brakes it has

Once D1 has passed the B test (which is the normal car test), she can drive up to (and including?) 3.5t lorry;
YES

For her to drive more than 3.5t, she has to take the C1 test
YES

- I got a little confused at this point... What does the C1 test allow her to drive up to?
ANY RIGID VEHICLE UP TO 7.5 TONNES WITH LESS THAN 10 TOTAL SEATS and a trailer up to 750 kgs MAM

The other thing I was a bit unsure of was the +E. I understand that the following will allow D1 to drive the Disco and tow Hugh the Huge Trailer (3,500kg):

B+E; or
C+E (or C1+E),

but that a simple C or C1 will not allow her to tow HtHT. The confused bit was if she's passed the C+E, can she drive a 7.5t and tow a trailer, or does the weight of the whole lot have to be 7.5t (loaded)?
B+E = ANY VEHICLE UP TO 3.5 TONNES WITH LESS THAN A TOTAL OF 10 SEATS TOWING A TRAILER UP TO 3.5 TONNES
C1+E = ANY VEHICLE UP TO 7.5 TONNES WITH LESS THAN A TOTAL OF 10 SEATS TOWING A TRAILER BUT THE TOTAL ACTUAL WEIGHT OF THE COMBINATION IS 12 TONNES MAX
C+E = ANY RIGID VEHICLE (NO WEIGHT LIMIT) WITH LESS THAN A TOTAL OF 10 SEATS TOWING ANY TRAILER - WEIGHT RESTRICTIONS WILL BE ON THE VOSA PLATES

Thank you again ROG . You really are a star and deserve something really nice

Hope that helps

 

[MrsMozart]

Hope that helps

You are indeed an absolute star

D thinks so too (anyone who could get that lot into my thick head deserves a medal according to him ).

Thank you again. I shall think of something nice to send to you

 

[ROG]

I did not know there was a set up like that .... and it can be driven by a driver who only has a B licence!!

 

[Optimist]

Please can you tell me what I can legally tow in an ifor williams 505 with an ancient, 1996, Volvo 940. I am also sufficiently ancient to be able to tow on my ordinary driving licence. None of the websites seem to have data for such a "mature" vehicle! I currently use this set up occasionally to tow one horse (when lorry is in hospital, which it currently is and looks like remaining there for a while...) I would love to be able to tow two but imagine this would not be possible?

Thank you in advance!!

 

[ROG]

Please can you tell me what I can legally tow in an ifor williams 505 with an ancient, 1996, Volvo 940. I am also sufficiently ancient to be able to tow on my ordinary driving licence. None of the websites seem to have data for such a "mature" vehicle! I currently use this set up occasionally to tow one horse (when lorry is in hospital, which it currently is and looks like remaining there for a while...) I would love to be able to tow two but imagine this would not be possible?

Thank you in advance!!

I put this into a google search - 1996 volvo 940 kgs gvw towing kerb - it came up with a few specifications/dimensions for your car
1 - THIS ONE? or 2 - THIS ONE? or 3 - THIS ONE?

IFOR WILLIAMS HB505 TRAILER
Unladen 905
MAM 2340

Now then .... some of the volvos in those links have a 1300 and some a 1600 towing capacity which for a B+E licence holder is all we really need to be concerned with.

With a 1300 towing capacity and 905 empty trailer weight all that can be loaded into the trailer is 395 kgs but with a 1600 that increases to 695 kgs

Which Volvo is yours in those three links?

 

[ROG]

FOR A VOLVO 940 (1990 - 1997) I ALSO FOUND THIS AND THIS

 

[Optimist]

AAAAGHHHHHH!!!!

Why is nothing simple? (like me..)

It is the estate, so like the third of your pictures. It says on the back of it 940 s 2.3, but it could well have said se and the "e" might have abandoned ship....

I have looked in the manual and, like one of your links, it covers all the different models.

Might it say something on a plate on the car itself??

 

[ROG]

AAAAGHHHHHH!!!!

Why is nothing simple? (like me..)

It is the estate, so like the third of your pictures. It says on the back of it 940 s 2.3, but it could well have said se and the "e" might have abandoned ship....

I have looked in the manual and, like one of your links, it covers all the different models.

Might it say something on a plate on the car itself??

It is the number 3 in those options - 1990 to 1997 model

That means it has a 1600 kgs towing capacity so you can load the trailer with a maximum weight of 695 kgs - plenty for one horse but not two horses

 

[Optimist]

Thank you!

Such a relief to know what I am doing is OK - and if I trade in the boys for shetlands, I can take 2!!

 

[ROG]

With this thread now at 40 pages I though perhaps this might need repeating.

Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained


Trailer MAM means the maximum weight the trailer can be when fully loaded (weight of empty trailer plus weight of load)

Trailers over 3500 kgs plated MAM weight come under different rules which is why all the trailers towed by B class vehicles , those of 3.5 tonnes and under, are not plated at more than 3500 kgs or 3.5 tonnes MAM

Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.

Vehicles in the B licence category will have the following information on a plate in the vehicle, in the handbook or on the V5 form.
Information can also be found on many internet vehicle specification sites.
Unladen or Kerb weight - although there is a slight difference in the two it is not that much
GVW - the max weight the vehicle can weigh when fully loaded
GTW - the max weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
Towing capacity - this is the ACTUAL weight that can be towed by the vehicle - it does not mean the trailer MAM weight.
None of the above weights must be exceeded

Some vehicles have a GVW, a towing capacity and a GTW. In such a case the GTW takes priority over the GVW and towing capacity when added together

FOR B+E LICENCES

Where a towing capacity is listed then this would be a legal example:-
CAR has GVW of 2000 and a towing capacity of 1800
TRAILER has a MAM of 3500 and an unladen weight of 1000
The trailer can be loaded with a maximum weight of 800

Where there is not a towing capacity listed then the GTW is used
GTW minus the GVW does not give the towing capacity unless the vehicle is fully laden
EXAMPLE: -
VAN has GVW of 3500 and GTW of 6000
TRAILER has MAM of 3500
The van and trailer can weigh 3000 each and be legal

FOR B LICENCES
The Gov sites are not that good at explaining this so I have managed to find a simple way of determining whether a driver can tow something on a B only licence -

To tow over 750 kgs with a B licence you need to say NO to the following:-
Is the plated MAM of the trailer more than the UNLADEN/KERB/EMPTY weight of the towing vehicle?
Does the GVW of the towing vehicle plus the plated MAM of the trailer add up to more than 3500 kgs?
Is the ACTUAL weight of the empty trailer and its load more than the listed towing capacity?

Example of legally towing over 750 kgs with a B licence - made up figures but not that far from what can be found....

Towing vehicle -
Unladen/empty/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2000
Towing capacity = 1800

Trailer -
Unladen/empty = 800
MAM = 1500 (Perhaps originally a 2000 MAM but downplated by manufacturer so it conforms to B licence towing)

Load trailer with 700 max

Reasons it is legal for towing on a B licence -
The 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than the 1500 unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
The 2000 GVW of the towing vehicle plus the 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than 3500
The towing capacity/actual weight being towed does not exceed 1800

Here is another way of looking at the B licence towing rules with examples:-

RULE 1 - The gross plated weight of the trailer (MAM) cannot exceed the vehicle kerbweight.

RULE 2 - Also, the sum of the vehicle gross plated weight (GVW) and the trailer gross plated weight (MAM) cannot exceed 3500kg.

Examples:-

Vehicle 1200kg kerbweight, 1700kg gross plated weight (GVW) = maximum trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1200kg SEE RULE 1

Vehicle 1500kg kerbweight, 2000kg gross plated weight (GVW) = maximum trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1500kg SEE RULES 1 & 2

Vehicle 1800kg kerbweight, 2300kg gross plated weight (GVW) = maximum trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1200kg SEE RULE 2

The weight which can be loaded on the trailer is the trailer gross plated weight (MAM) minus the trailer unladen weight
Trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1500 with unladen weight 900 = a maximum load of 600

The listed maximum towing capacity for a vehicle must not be exceeded - that is actual weight not plated MAM weight
Although there is not a specific law which states this there are other laws which can be used if the combination (vehicle & trailer) is deemed unsafe.

Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing rule


SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Many will find that passing the once in a lifetime B+E test is their best option so here is some info on that test:-

The B+E test
No medical or theory test required
Read a number plate from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
One hour road drive - includes the independant drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos



Please post with this info if you want me to answer a specific query - weights in kgs please
(might be made easier if the info below is copied and pasted with the weights etc put after the '=' bits)

LICENCE
B or B+E =

VEHICLE
Unladen/kerb =
GVW =
GTW =
Towing capacity =

TRAILER
Unladen =
MAM =

 

[mtj]

Sorry if this has already been asked.

My towing car V70 is starting to get problems so thinking about replacement.

OH (who will be paying) fails to understand the economics of a 3.5 lorry and insists i have a tow car and trailer.

Need to pull 1600kg with 1 horse minimum. What is the most economical fuel wise to do this. Hefty budget to purchase vehicle ie £40k no probs.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

 

[ROG]

Sorry if this has already been asked.

My towing car V70 is starting to get problems so thinking about replacement.

OH (who will be paying) fails to understand the economics of a 3.5 lorry and insists i have a tow car and trailer.

Need to pull 1600kg with 1 horse minimum. What is the most economical fuel wise to do this. Hefty budget to purchase vehicle ie £40k no probs.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Not really my thing - I can help with licence & weight issues when presented with information

May I suggest that you ask the same question in the New Lounge forum but state if you are restricted by only having a B licence

 

[mtj]

Sorry, getting hopeful you might be a tow car enthusiast!

I'm old enough to have the old licence but have taken tow training voluntarily.

 

[chestnuttyy]

1 - What licence they hold - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - Minimum kerb weight - 1515kg(ford mondeo)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - Gross vehicle weight 2075kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
Maximum Gross Weight 1600 , Unladen Weight * 770


Please could you tell me if this setup would be legal? I haven't purchased either car or trailer as of yet, but trying to figure out how to tow without taking my trailer test (can't afford the lessons and test as well as a trailer ).

Thanks

 

[ROG]

1 - What licence they hold - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - Minimum kerb weight - 1515kg(ford mondeo)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - Gross vehicle weight 2075kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
Maximum Gross Weight 1600 , Unladen Weight * 770


Please could you tell me if this setup would be legal? I haven't purchased either car or trailer as of yet, but trying to figure out how to tow without taking my trailer test (can't afford the lessons and test as well as a trailer ).

Thanks

Not quite legal for B licence towing YET but it CAN be

From the trailer figures it is a HB401 trailer which needs to be downplated to 1400 kgs by contacting Ifor williams and then taking it to their nearest agent to you - cost is usually nowt or a few quid for admin

That would leave the trailer with a horse/load capacity of 630 kgs so plenty for one horse and few bits and bobs me thinks

The reasons it would be legal for B licence towing when downplated to 1400:-
1400+2075=3475 which is not more than 3500
1400 is less than the 1515 kerb weight
If fully laden the trailer is nowehere to the 1800 towing capacity/actual weight that the vehicle has been designed to tow safely so that is not an issue

 

[chestnuttyy]

Not quite legal for B licence towing YET but it CAN be

From the trailer figures it is a HB401 trailer which needs to be downplated to 1400 kgs by contacting Ifor williams and then taking it to their nearest agent to you - cost is usually nowt or a few quid for admin

That would leave the trailer with a horse/load capacity of 630 kgs so plenty for one horse and few bits and bobs me thinks

The reasons it would be legal for B licence towing when downplated to 1400:-
1400+2075=3475 which is not more than 3500
1400 is less than the 1515 kerb weight
If fully laden the trailer is nowehere to the 1800 towing capacity/actual weight that the vehicle has been designed to tow safely so that is not an issue

Thank you!!

This is DEFINITELY something I'm going to look into now .

 

[ROG]

Ifor williams contact number 01490 412527 - ask for customer care

 

[perfect11s]

Sorry, getting hopeful you might be a tow car enthusiast!

I'm old enough to have the old licence but have taken tow training voluntarily.

would say most of the big estates, volvo merc e class, subaru legacy would be fine
not sure why fuel would be an issue if you have 40k for a budget!!!! what you will lose in depriciation over say 3 years will dwarf the extra fuel saving most big cars lose about 2 3rds of there value over 3 years a 3.5 ton box for 20 k and say a mid size diesel car for the same would most likley work out cheaper as you would save on fuel and they would hold there value better....

 

[chestnuttyy]

1 - What licence they hold - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - Minimum kerb weight - 1515kg(ford mondeo)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - Gross vehicle weight 2075kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
Maximum Gross Weight 1600 , Unladen Weight * 770


Please could you tell me if this setup would be legal? I haven't purchased either car or trailer as of yet, but trying to figure out how to tow without taking my trailer test (can't afford the lessons and test as well as a trailer ).

Thanks

Could you do the same again but for a Nissan XTrail?!

 

[ROG]

Could you do the same again but for a Nissan XTrail?!

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=10532570&postcount=308
Is that your Xtrail? - there are a few different ones

 

[chestnuttyy]

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=10532570&postcount=308
Is that your Xtrail? - there are a few different ones

Haven't bought it yet, just looking at possibilities! The GVW looks to be roughly the same so I'm guessing it's the same setup as the Mondeo... just downplate the trailer to 1450 ?

 

[ROG]

Haven't bought it yet, just looking at possibilities! The GVW looks to be roughly the same so I'm guessing it's the same setup as the Mondeo... just downplate the trailer to 1450 ?

Yes
The 4X4 Xtrail + single horse trailer seems to be a good choice from posts I have read on here and other sites

 

[ROG]

Towing a single horse with a B licence (no B+E) can get tricky if looking for a 4X4 type of towing vehicle so perhaps these few suggestions might help

VEHICLE 'A' is a Nissan Xtrail 4X4 with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000

VEHICLE 'B' is a Kia Sportage AWD with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1678
GVW = 2140
Towing = 1600

These 3 single horse trailers seem to be the most popular but there are others .....
1 - BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
2 - CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
3 - IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
As all these manufacturers are still in business then downplating any of those trailers is easy and usually free or very little cost - just call them to sort it

Set ups:-
A+1 = trailer downplated to 1450 leaves a load of 775 (or 1400 & 725)
A+2 = no downplating leaves a load of 745
A+3 = trailer downplated to 1450 leaves a load of 680 (or 1400 & 630)
B+1 = trailer downplated to 1360 leaves a load of 685 (or 1300 & 625)
B+2 = trailer downplated to 1360 leaves a load of 705 (or 1300 & 645)
B+3 = trailer downplated to 1360 leaves a load of 590 (or 1300 & 530)

 

[WelshTilly]

Hi

Have i worked this out correctly?? Is there any chance this combo will work without doing my B+E trailer test?? Can I downplate the trailer?? I don't think it will work as the GVW + MAM = 5020

Vehicle Toyota Hilux

Unladen - 1820
GVW -2680
Towing Capacity - 2250

Trailer - Ifor 505

Unladen - 905
MAM -2340

Want to carry a single 500kg horse

K

 

[ROG]

Hi

Have i worked this out correctly?? Is there any chance this combo will work without doing my B+E trailer test?? Can I downplate the trailer?? I don't think it will work as the GVW + MAM = 5020

Vehicle Toyota Hilux

Unladen - 1820
GVW -2680
Towing Capacity - 2250

Trailer - Ifor 505

Unladen - 905
MAM -2340

Want to carry a single 500kg horse

K

It will not work because of the high GVW which only leaves a maximum trailer MAM of 820 kgs

For B licence towing you really need to change both vehicle and trailer because of the high vehicle GVW and the high trailer unladen weight
Downplating a trailer MAM where the trailer has a high unladen weight leaves very little for the load weight

 

[ROG]

Have i worked this out correctly?? Is there any chance this combo will work without doing my B+E trailer test?? Can I downplate the trailer?? I don't think it will work as the GVW + MAM = 5020
GVW -2680
MAM -2340

You folks are getting good at this

I might get made redundant soon

 

[WelshTilly]

It will not work because of the high GVW which only leaves a maximum trailer MAM of 820 kgs

For B licence towing you really need to change both vehicle and trailer because of the high vehicle GVW and the high trailer unladen weight
Downplating a trailer MAM where the trailer has a high unladen weight leaves very little for the load weight

Thought as much just needed someone to check I'd done it right..... got no choice on towing vehicle as its a company truck so have to stick with it....looks like B+ E license test it is then.....6 week wait down here and several people I know have recently been failed for silly things, I wanted to have a couple of lessons and as it appears I'm prob better to turn up in a driving instructors vehicle & trailer however it is getting so cost prohibitive to do this on top of the test fee. .....

 

[ROG]

... got no choice on towing vehicle as its a company truck so have to stick with it....looks like B+ E license test it is then.....6 week wait down here and several people I know have recently been failed for silly things, I wanted to have a couple of lessons and as it appears I'm prob better to turn up in a driving instructors vehicle & trailer however it is getting so cost prohibitive to do this on top of the test fee. .....

Practice with current set up >>>>
All B licence holders have a B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence

That means they can tow a B+E combination either loaded or empty and on a motorway providing they adhere to these rules:-
Supervising driver must be age 21+ and held B+E for 3+ years
L plates on front of vehicle and rear of trailer
Correct insurance for B+E learner - check with current insurer and in your case the company as well