Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[wipeout]

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

Right, I think these are the numbers I need, some help would be appreciated please - How much weight can I put in this trailer?

1. B+E
2. 1840
3. 2510
4. 2800
5. 2700
6. 1000

Thanks

 

[ROG]

Right, I think these are the numbers I need, some help would be appreciated please - How much weight can I put in this trailer?

1. B+E
2. 1840
3. 2510
4. 2800
5. 2700
6. 1000

Thanks

You can load the trailer with 1700 kgs
2700 minus 1000 = 1700

Mitsubishi shogun/pajero has a max towing capacity of 2800
Ifor HB510 has a MAM of 2700
The LOWER of those weights is what a B+E licence holder must use

If the towing capacity had been say 2500 then the max load for the trailer would have been 1500 kgs (2500-1000=1500)

 

[rockysmum]

Hi Rog

A completely non horsey question for you.

Not for me, I haven't completely lost the plot

If someone wanted to tow a track day car, I believe just high performance standard cars on a car trailer would they need the trailer test.

The towing vehicle in question is a Defender 2.5 diesel.

Dont have any details of the car or the car trailer as at the moment its just an idea that a member of my family has.

I'm hoping it wont involve me having to tow the thing.

 

[quirky]

Can I ask a different type of question?

I have a pre 97 license and was 'taught', as such, to tow by a 'been doing it for years' old man.

He taught me that with a horse in the trailer, that braking should be avoided so as to give the horse a smooth ride. ie.slow down through gears on approach to a junction and brake gently when necessary. Also to think about trailer placement/speed when going round corners roundabouts etc.
I have travelled like this for years and all my horses have travelled calmly.

Having sold my trailer, due to OH selling towing vehicle , I ventured out with somebody who has taken a trailer test. I was shocked at the driving style, as was my horse, who struggled to stay upright and came off sweating from her ears downwards .

I asked the driver if when they took their trailer lessons did they tailor them to pulling livestock, I was surprised at a no answer.

So, is it just me, or should we aim to drive differently with livestock on board? And shouldn't those being given trailer lessons tell the instructors that they are intending to pull livestock so they can be instructed accordingly?

 

[rockysmum]

So, is it just me, or should we aim to drive differently with livestock on board? And shouldn't those being given trailer lessons tell the instructors that they are intending to pull livestock so they can be instructed accordingly?

This discussion came up on a Landy forum when I was getting advice on how which one to buy.

They were saying power/speed/uprated braking was important.

I actually said that my aim when towing was not to brake at all. Doing it right you need to read the road, a bit like motor bike riders have to. Avoid braking at all costs. Same with cornering, get the angles and speed right.

If its not being taught its no wonder so many horses are bad to travel.

 

[ROG]

Hi Rog

A completely non horsey question for you.

Not for me, I haven't completely lost the plot

If someone wanted to tow a track day car, I believe just high performance standard cars on a car trailer would they need the trailer test.

The towing vehicle in question is a Defender 2.5 diesel.

Dont have any details of the car or the car trailer as at the moment its just an idea that a member of my family has.

I'm hoping it wont involve me having to tow the thing.

THIS VEHICLE?
GVW 2480
TOWING 3500

Taking the basic kerb weight of a car as 1500 kgs and the car trailer at say 500 kgs then that is 2000 kgs and we have not got to the trailer plated MAM yet !!

With a GVW of 2480 that only leaves a max trailer MAM of 1020 for B licence towing so thats not going to work

A B licence holder can drive it under B+E provisional rules with you sitting next to them

 

[ROG]

Can I ask a different type of question?

I have a pre 97 license and was 'taught', as such, to tow by a 'been doing it for years' old man.

He taught me that with a horse in the trailer, that braking should be avoided so as to give the horse a smooth ride. ie.slow down through gears on approach to a junction and brake gently when necessary. Also to think about trailer placement/speed when going round corners roundabouts etc.
I have travelled like this for years and all my horses have travelled calmly.

Having sold my trailer, due to OH selling towing vehicle , I ventured out with somebody who has taken a trailer test. I was shocked at the driving style, as was my horse, who struggled to stay upright and came off sweating from her ears downwards .

I asked the driver if when they took their trailer lessons did they tailor them to pulling livestock, I was surprised at a no answer.

So, is it just me, or should we aim to drive differently with livestock on board? And shouldn't those being given trailer lessons tell the instructors that they are intending to pull livestock so they can be instructed accordingly?

These days all vehicles are deigned to be slowed down by the brakes alone by using a smooth application of the brake pedal

Every time a gear is changed there is the possibility of the 'jerk' when a new gear is engaged and it means taking a hand off of the steering wheel which is less safe than having two on the wheel for better control

A lot of the 'old crew' learnt on vehicles with drum brakes which could heat up and become less effective or fail
That is not true for todays disc brakes

Those doing driver, including trailer, training etc are now taught to slow down as I have described

 

[ROG]

I actually said that my aim when towing was not to brake at all. Doing it right you need to read the road, a bit like motor bike riders have to. Avoid braking at all costs. Same with cornering, get the angles and speed right.

Spot on

You sound like you have been on an advanced driver training course?

 

[rockysmum]

Spot on

You sound like you have been on an advanced driver training course?

No, used to own motorbikes

 

[ROG]

No, used to own motorbikes

You were describing the advanced M/C techniques where the gears are used due to the power to weight ratios instead of brakes which when used on two wheels can have a detrimental affect

With 4 or more wheels on a modern vehicle the system is a little different in that the brakes and not the gears are designed for slowing the vehicles

In all cases the best actions are just to let the machine slow down on it own by excellent forward observation and planning which is what you stated earlier

I am now straying into my other passion of advanced driving so I had better leave it there before going into pages and pages of it .... back to towing licence and weight issues me thinks ...

 

[wipeout]

You can load the trailer with 1700 kgs
2700 minus 1000 = 1700

Mitsubishi shogun/pajero has a max towing capacity of 2800
Ifor HB510 has a MAM of 2700
The LOWER of those weights is what a B+E licence holder must use

If the towing capacity had been say 2500 then the max load for the trailer would have been 1500 kgs (2500-1000=1500)

Thanks very much ROG, so I've got quite a bit to play with then. It's not a Mitsubishi but a good explanation, thank you.

 

[ROG]

It's not a Mitsubishi

DARN!!

I put those weights into a google search and all that came up was mitsi shogun or pajero - not that it makes any difference to the answer

 

[ester]

quirky I did my trailer test and certainly did not tow the trailer then like I would with a horse on board, essentially the test is to ensure that you are safe on the road with one and not that you can keep an animal safe in one. . I did point out to instructor that I would not be doing certain things (getting up to speed limit quite as quickly/corners etc) the same when I had a horse on board. . . she agreed but it isn't how to pass your test

With the ponies I aim to brake as little as possible.. I get dreadfully travel sick myself so know what makes for a smoother ride!

 

[ROG]

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - Towing capacity (and/or GTW) of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "


I think these are the numbers I need

1. B+E
2. 1840
3. 2510
4. 2800
5. 2700
6. 1000

The above info makes an answer very easy for me but I can often work out the figures if the exact models for the vehicle and trailer are given

 

[ROG]

Well, at the moment we only have one 13.2hh NF pony, and the pressing issue is getting him to Pony Club Rallies! So any advice you can give me on what we may need to just tow him so that I can tow alone would be brilliant!

BUT I am looking for a horse for me so that I can do fun rides and small shows so eventually we'd have to have something that could pull two OR we may get another small pony for my younger children.

I know from your other thread (click link in quote above) that you are looking for something about £4k and possibly towing on a B licence
Nissan Xtrail 4X4 bit over budget at £4495
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

With one of the SINGLE horse trailers below which may need downplating to 1450 and using that Nissan Xtrail would be legal for B licence towing

BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER

There are some lightweight TWO horse trailers around but we need to stay within the 1450 MAM limit with that Nissan as a tow vehicle so if the TWO HORSE TRAILER weighs 675 kgs empty/unladen then that leaves 775 kgs for the horses

Contact trailer manufacturer to have trailer downplated if needed (free or very little cost)

 

[shellonabeach]

I just wanted to say thank you ROG for all the information you keep updating on the towing rules.

I taught myself and took the towing test using my own 4x4 and horsebox a few years ago and only failed on the emergency stop, which I found out last year had been scrapped for the independant drive! After seeing the reverse area had downsized from one of your posts I decided to find an instructor (I could not face taking my own rig around the city centre again and have a lot of naughty driving habits I needed to iron out) and get the test done again before anything else changed and thankfully passed last week

My own little rig which I towed on a B license (shortwheel base Fourtrak and downrated Cheval Liberte 1003) will soon be getting sold and replaced with a larger set-up

 

[ROG]

I just wanted to say thank you ROG for all the information you keep updating on the towing rules.

I taught myself and took the towing test using my own 4x4 and horsebox a few years ago and only failed on the emergency stop, which I found out last year had been scrapped for the independant drive! After seeing the reverse area had downsized from one of your posts I decided to find an instructor (I could not face taking my own rig around the city centre again and have a lot of naughty driving habits I needed to iron out) and get the test done again before anything else changed and thankfully passed last week

My own little rig which I towed on a B license (shortwheel base Fourtrak and downrated Cheval Liberte 1003) will soon be getting sold and replaced with a larger set-up

Thanks for those kind words and WELL DONE for passing the B+E test

 

[billylula]

Thank you ROG, that is one of the most helpful things I have ever learned from a forum of any description

 

[bunnereeny]

I took my test in 2005 and have had my provisional since 2000.

Does this mean that as long as I have someone with me that has a B+E lisence I can tow with L plates??

 

[ROG]

I took my test in 2005 and have had my provisional since 2000.

Does this mean that as long as I have someone with me that has a B+E lisence I can tow with L plates??

If you mean B provisional since 2000 and passed B test in 2005 then yes you can

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Many will find that passing the once in a lifetime B+E test is their best option so here is some info on that test:-

The B+E test
No medical or theory test required
Read a number plate from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
One hour road drive - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

 

[bunnereeny]

If you mean B provisional since 2000 and passed B test in 2005 then yes you can

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Many will find that passing the once in a lifetime B+E test is their best option so here is some info on that test:-

The B+E test
No medical or theory test required
Read a number plate from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
One hour road drive - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

thank you, i'm not convinced by these laws you know. it means my mother (never towed a thing in her life) can "supervise" me who as been towing things around on farms etc since i was big enough to reach pedals purely because of when she took her test. i think if they are going to introduce a towing test it should be compulsary across the board.

 

[ROG]

thank you, i'm not convinced by these laws you know. it means my mother (never towed a thing in her life) can "supervise" me who as been towing things around on farms etc since i was big enough to reach pedals purely because of when she took her test. i think if they are going to introduce a towing test it should be compulsary across the board.

Another weird legal thing -
The supervising driver does not have to be insured - only the person who is driving !!

 

[ROG]

Hi all,

I can't tow (yet) but my OH has now had his towing licence for 4 months and has been towing he's racing car to the track and so gain a whole load of experience in this time.

He tows his race car which is a little Lotus Elise on an enclosed trailer with my BMW 330d auto estate (2001 plate).

Would this car be good enough to tow one horse (15.3hh cleveland bay) in a trailer?
(have no trailer at the moment so if this is possible trailer suggestions welcome (I believe if it is possible the trailer would need to be lightweight)

My OH is adament that this car is up to the job for one horse but I'm just not convinced...

I'd appreciate comments both positive and negative thank you!

DOES THIS BMW 330d (2006) HAVE THE SAME SPECS AS YOUR 2001 MODEL?
KERB 1615
GVW 2155
TOWING MAX 1800

Assuming those weight are correct for YOUR BMW then using one of these trailers but downplated by contacting manufacturer (little or no cost) will work for B licence towing like this .....

BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER

Downplate any one of those to maximum of 1345 MAM (2155+1345=3500)
BATESON leaves 670 kgs for load/horse
CHEVAL leaves 690 kgs for load/horse
HB401 leaves 575 kgs for load/horse

This reply is not definitive for your situation because I really need the weights for your BMW

 

[kezz86]

BMW 3 Series Touring 330 D SE - Kerbweight - 1690Kg, Towing capacity- 1800kg, Towing Capacity (Lbs)- 3968

I believe these figures are correct for my car (taken from a caravan site I haven't checked with OH yet as am at work but I'm impatient and want to find out!)

 

[ROG]

BMW 3 Series Touring 330 D SE - Kerbweight - 1690Kg, Towing capacity- 1800kg, Towing Capacity (Lbs)- 3968

I believe these figures are correct for my car (taken from a caravan site I haven't checked with OH yet as am at work but I'm impatient and want to find out!)

Thjat is two weights out of the three - I still need the GVW

I suspect the GVW will be about 2200 kgs but await your figures

If you have the handbook or the registered keepers V5 document handy then they may be in there

 

[ROG]

BMW 3 Series Touring 330d SE Auto year unknown
Kerb Weight 1690 kg
Gross Weight 2155 kg
Towing Limit (braked) 1800 kg

If it has those weights then the maximum trailer MAM for B licence towing is still 1345 kgs 1345+2155=3500

That being the case then lets take the IFOR HB401 as our example single horse trailer
HB401 is 770 unladen and has a MAM of 1600

Need to contact IFOR Wiliams to have it downplated to 1345 and that leaves it with a load capacity of 575 kgs for the horse etc

As most horses tend to be about 500 kgs then that will be fine for B licence towing with the BMW

I have heard the IFOR will not downplate below 1400 but I cannot think that is really the case as there are so many towing under B licence rules these days

 

[sidesaddlegirl]

Hi Rog,

I'm trying to get my head around all the towing laws and think I may have sussed it? If I simplify things for myself, here is my understanding (please tell me if I'm WAY off!)..

If you passed your test before 1997, you can tow a trailer up to what your particular car's particular braked towing capacity is (i.e. my OH who got his license in 1991, can tow whatever in our 2ltr diesel car up to 1300kg braked- so unladen weight of trailer plus whatever the weight of the animal inside it has to be under 1300kgs).


If you passed after 1997, then MAM comes in play unless you take your trailer towing test.

So if I so happen to pass my driving test next year (2013) with a B license, I could only tow with a vehicle that was capable of towing the full MAM of a trailer.

If I get my B+E, then I can tow like as if I got my license before 1997 so only have to worry about towing up to the car's braked towing weight?

Example, my Ifor 505 has an unladen weight of 840kgs and a max gross weight of 2340kg so unless I get my E, I can only tow with a vehicle capable of towing 2340kgs.

Once I get my E, then all I have to worry about is whether the unladen weight of the trailer and horse inside, is less than the braked towing capacity of the car.

Have I understood this right?

I think our next car will be a larger car, I think my OH is coming around to the idea of buying a 4x4 for our next car (if he cycles to work to save on fuel).

 

[ROG]

Hi Rog,

I'm trying to get my head around all the towing laws and think I may have sussed it? If I simplify things for myself, here is my understanding (please tell me if I'm WAY off!)..

You are on the right track but not quite there .....

I'll do made up examples and then explanations as that is usually the easiest way to understand for most ....

For B & B+E towing this rule applies
The LOWER weight of these two must be used to determine what the max weight the trailer can be when loaded
Trailer MAM
Vehicle towing capacity
The unladen weight of the trailer gets deducted rom the LOWER of those two weight to obtain the weight that can be loaded into/onto it

For B licence towing -
VEHICLE
Kerb weight 1500
GVW 2000
Towing capacity 1400

TRAILER
Unladen 800
MAM 1500

Reasons this is legal
The GVW + MAM is not more than the 3500 max (2000+1500=3500)
The MAM 1500 is not more than the Kerb 1500 (this rule may be scrapped in Jan 2013)

Only 600 can be loaded in the trailer because the towing capacity 1400 is lower than the MAM 1500 (1400-800=600)

The trailer MAM can legally be more than the towing capacity

For B+E licence towing -
VEHICLE
Kerb weight 1700
GVW 2500
Towing capacity 3000

TRAILER
Unladen 1000
MAM 2500

Only 1500 can be loaded into the trailer because the MAM 2500 is less than the towing capacity 3000 (2500-1000=1500)

GVW and kerb weights play no part in the calculations for B+E towing unless there is a listed GTW which is lower than GVW and towing capacity added together but that only happens in odd cases

 

[sidesaddlegirl]

Thanks ROG, although MAM's and stuff still confuses me (I guess I'm just really thick). I'll leave the towing to my OH with his 1991 license as our car will be legal towing my one horse with it for him down the road and then hopefully by the time I eventually start driving and towing, we'll have a bigger car.

Just another question, when it's finally time for me to take my tow test, does the test center have "test cars and test trailers" for you to do your test in or do you bring your own vehicles? I don't know anyone who has done a towing test to ask as all my mates got their licenses before 1997, I'm just the thicko who can't pass a test!!

 

[ROG]

Thanks ROG, although MAM's and stuff still confuses me (I guess I'm just really thick). I'll leave the towing to my OH with his 1991 license as our car will be legal towing my one horse with it for him down the road and then hopefully by the time I eventually start driving and towing, we'll have a bigger car.

MAM or GVW means the same thing - the maximum weight something can be when fully loaded
Usually GVW is used for the vehicle and MAM is used for the trailer
The GVW/MAM weights can be found on a plate attached to the vehicle/trailer, in a handbook, on a registered kepers V5 form and often on the internet.

Legal if he is with you if the set up is outside B licence towing rules
SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Just another question, when it's finally time for me to take my tow test, does the test center have "test cars and test trailers" for you to do your test in or do you bring your own vehicles? I don't know anyone who has done a towing test to ask as all my mates got their licenses before 1997, I'm just the thicko who can't pass a test!!

You could do it with your own car and trailer as long as they meet the DSA test specifications

You would have to know exactly what the DSA are looking for on test

Most go to a B+E instructor and then use their set up for the test

The B+E test
No medical or theory test required
Read a number plate from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
One hour road drive - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos