Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[SpottedCat]

No ROG, you misunderstand me - I believe you re the 85% thing. It's more whether or not the vehicle would be a good tow vehicle.

 

[mischamoo]

ROG,

I just wondered if you might clarify a point on where I've seen advice been given on towing weights and I'm not sure it's correct!

For example if a vehicle can tow 2000kg and was towing an ifor williams 505 where the maximum gross weight is 2340kg, am I correct in thinking that this is an illegal setup as the maximum gross weight of the trailer is more than the towing capacity of the car. And even if someone was towing this combination empty or with a total weight that was less than the tow capacity of the car which is 2000kg, this is still illegal?

Thank you for any clarification!

 

[ROG]

ROG,

I just wondered if you might clarify a point on where I've seen advice been given on towing weights and I'm not sure it's correct!

For example if a vehicle can tow 2000kg and was towing an ifor williams 505 where the maximum gross weight is 2340kg, am I correct in thinking that this is an illegal setup as the maximum gross weight of the trailer is more than the towing capacity of the car. And even if someone was towing this combination empty or with a total weight that was less than the tow capacity of the car which is 2000kg, this is still illegal?

Thank you for any clarification!

This is an old internet myth

There is no law or rule which states that the manufacturers recommended towing capacity must be able to cope with the potential MAM of a trailer

Can you imagine what would happen if it was true ..... trailers would need to be down plated and up plated many times and that would apply to LGVs as well as other types because they are all under the same laws !!

If you ever come across someone saying otherwise then ask them to show you the law ...... but you will be waiting a long long time

 

[laurahayley]

1. B
2.2140
3. 2520
4. 3500
5. 1905
6. 905

 

[ROG]

1. B
2.2140
3. 2520
4. 3500
5. 1905
6. 905

Illegal on a B licence

The maximum trailer plated MAM for a vehicle with a GVW of 2520 on a B licence is only 980 kgs (you have one with 1905)

You need a vehicle with a lower GVW and a trailer with a lower unladen and MAM weight

Post numbers 999 and 1000 of this thread will give you some ideas

 

[jane_volt]

Any one know of any good rent a tow companies in St Albans? Please message me. Ta !

 

[Aleka81]

Hi Rog
Being very thick!
I have just taken the following details off my freelander:
Max laden weight 2040
Max vehicle and trailer weight 4040
Max road weight front axle 1050
Max road weight rear axle 1120

Is there anything i can tow on a B license with this set up? Horse is 550kgs and would only ever be the one

If you need any more info please let me know and thank you in advance

 

[ROG]

Hi Rog
Being very thick!
I have just taken the following details off my freelander:
Max laden weight 2040
Max vehicle and trailer weight 4040
Max road weight front axle 1050
Max road weight rear axle 1120

Is there anything i can tow on a B license with this set up? Horse is 550kgs and would only ever be the one

If you need any more info please let me know and thank you in advance

That would be a Freelander 1 and others have said that some can be a little under powered when towing and can have other issues but if yours is ok then fine as you probably have a good one

Now to your question ...
There are a few examples of trailers that can be used with this vehicle for B licence towing in post number 999 of this thread but I will use one example

Ifor HB401 or the new version of that is 1600 MAM and 770 kgs unladen

Contact Ifor Williams to arrange to have it down plated from 1600 to 1450

When down plated to 1450 it will leave 680 kgs for the load/horse

1450 + 2040 = 3490 so under the 3500 B licence towing limit
Although you have not listed the kerb weight I believe 1450 is going to be under the kerb weight so that is ok

 

[Aleka81]

Hi Rog
Thank you for that. I also have the option of using a Trooper would my options be more widened with this?
Will try and get details for this later
Thank you

 

[Dunpony]

I wonder if you can help with a slightly different towing problem - can I tow more than 750kg with a 7.5 ton lorry (keeping under the lorry's train weight) on a pre 97 car license?

 

[ROG]

I wonder if you can help with a slightly different towing problem - can I tow more than 750kg with a 7.5 ton lorry (keeping under the lorry's train weight) on a pre 97 car license?

Not with a LGV with a GVW of 7.5 tonnes

You can if you drive a LGV with a lower GTW because the MAM limit is 8250 kgs on a pre 1997 C1+E with a 107 code

Example
LGV plated at 6 tonnes GVW with a trailer plated at 2.25 tonnes (2250 kgs) MAM = 8250 kgs

If you do not need the full 7.5 GVW then perhaps down plating it might be an option to allow for a higher MAM trailer

What did you want to tow behind it ?

 

[Dunpony]

Thanks for that, I actually want to tow a small car. The whole thing should come in at under a ton, including A frame and car. I'm looking at the sort of system used with motorhomes.

I need to look at the MAM rather than the actual weight then?

 

[ROG]

Thanks for that, I actually want to tow a small car. The whole thing should come in at under a ton, including A frame and car. I'm looking at the sort of system used with motorhomes.

I need to look at the MAM rather than the actual weight then?

Unless on a trailer the car must have at least over run brakes and be fully legal as at least part of it is on the road

A frame towing means conforming to trailer and vehicle requirements at the same time

A car can be fitted with an extra braking system which works when the towing vehicle brakes are applied but it is expensive

 

[ROG]

IMPORTANT LEGAL ANNOUNCEMENT

The B licence towing rule where it states the MAM of the trailer must not exceed the vehicle kerb weight has been removed on 19 Jan 2013

This means that all B licence holders, no matter when they passed the B test, only have the extra rule .... the total combination MAM must not exceed 3500 kgs .... which is the vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM


Unfortunately I cannot edit previous advice to accommodate this change.

 

[HaffiesRock]

can I just confirm then Rog, I passed my test in 2007 so with my dad sat next to me I could tow? Do I need L plates and does the trailer have to be empty? Thanks

 

[ROG]

can I just confirm then Rog, I passed my test in 2007 so with my dad sat next to me I could tow? Do I need L plates and does the trailer have to be empty? Thanks

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER

In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

 

[caithness_1]

Hi Rog, confirmation on whether this combination would be legal would be much appreciated.

1. B+E
2. 1565
3. 2000
4. 1700
5. 2700
6. 1000

The car is a Subaru legacy sports tourer, and trailer would be ifor Williams 510. From my understanding, it would be legal to tow one 550kg horse, as it is under the max 1700kg allowed? Or is there more to it than that?

Thanks for any help.

 

[ROG]

Hi Rog, confirmation on whether this combination would be legal would be much appreciated.

1. B+E
2. 1565
3. 2000
4. 1700
5. 2700
6. 1000

The car is a Subaru legacy sports tourer, and trailer would be ifor Williams 510. From my understanding, it would be legal to tow one 550kg horse, as it is under the max 1700kg allowed? Or is there more to it than that?

Thanks for any help.

Nothing for me to do here because you have it in one

1000+550=1550 leaving 150 to spare

 

[caithness_1]

Nothing for me to do here because you have it in one

1000+550=1550 leaving 150 to spare

Thank you

 

[BrandySnap46]

Hi can you help with my Freelander & Bahill trailer with a 400kg horse
1) B liscence
2) unladen weight of jeep -1770
3) fully loaded weight of jeep - 2505
4) max towing weight of jeep - 2000
5) max trailer weight when loaded - 1900
6) max trailer weight when empty - 800

 

[Vemth]

Thank you for agreeing to help those of us new to horse trailers!

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1700kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2350kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - towing capacity 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2600kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
- 965kg

Plus would only ever carry one 14.2, say 550kg. Car is an Evoque, trailer is hb506.

Thanks every so much for your help!

 

[Vemth]

After the recent poll by perfect11s:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=489592

Many agreed a sticky would be very useful, but the format needed to change to avoid the confusion/arguments.

At the end of the above thread, ROG kindly agreed to help run a Towing Clinic for those who find the laws & limitations as confusing as I did.


Here is an example of how it will work:-

"If a member on here was to provide me with the relevant info then I can say whether the set up is legal or not on either a B or BE licence and WHY

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

- ROG

"I'll start here first...

1. B+E Licence
2. 2410kg (this is kerbweight/unladen right?)
3. 3450kg (not too sure about this - what does it mean? Max load of vehicle?)
4. 2500kg (Capacity)
5. 1905kg (HB505)
6. 905kg

Thanks ROG. "

- tallyho!

"LEGAL

1 - max vehicle GVW of 3500 (you got 3450) and max trailer MAM of 3500 (you got 1905)
2 - correct - usually listed in handbook
3 - correct - number 2 (2410) with full load of 1040 (2410+1040=3450)
4 - max weight of empty trailer plus the load on it
5 minus 6 1905-905=1000 so 1000 is the max load that can be loaded onto the trailer

5 is much lower than 4 so a fully laden trailler weighing 1905 is well within the max towing capacity of 2500

Your max combination weight would be 5355 with that set up (3450+1905=5355) but you could go up to 5950 if you got a trailer with a MAM of at least 2500 (up to 3500)

ADD - the problem in getting a trailer with a greater MAM could be that it is heavier when empty so getting a 3500 MAM trailer which weighed 1500 empty still only allows you a max payload of 1000 because of the 2500 towing capacity limit for your vehicle

If you are happy with the trailer load capacity of 1000 then great! "

-ROG

Hope that makes sense and you find it useful. Any questions about using the clinic, please PM me so we can keep the clinic running as smoothly as possible.

Useful Links:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073

http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp?make=Nissan#tab1

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/index.htm

http://www.rotationuk.com/gbu0-display/tyre_load_ratings.html calculate KGS by multiplying the number of tyres

ROG's thread: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=475968

[h=2]

Re: Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic[/h]

Thank you for agreeing to help those of us new to horse trailers!

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1700kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2350kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - towing capacity 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2600kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
- 965kg

Plus would only ever carry one 14.2, say 550kg. Car is an Evoque, trailer is hb506.

Thanks every so much for your help! ​

 

[ROG]

Hi can you help with my Freelander & Bahill trailer with a 400kg horse
1) B liscence
2) unladen weight of jeep -1770
3) fully loaded weight of jeep - 2505
4) max towing weight of jeep - 2000
5) max trailer weight when loaded - 1900
6) max trailer weight when empty - 800

The max trailer MAM for a B licence with a 2505 GVW vehicle is 995 kgs

 

[ROG]

[h=2]

Re: Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic[/h]

Thank you for agreeing to help those of us new to horse trailers!

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1700kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2350kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - towing capacity 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2600kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
- 965kg

Plus would only ever carry one 14.2, say 550kg. Car is an Evoque, trailer is hb506.

Thanks every so much for your help! ​

As 1800 is lower than 2600 then 1800 is the limit to go with

965 + 550 = 1515 so 285 spare

 

[Vemth]

As 1800 is lower than 2600 then 1800 is the limit to go with

965 + 550 = 1515 so 285 spare

That's brilliant, thanks very much Rog. I'd been really confused, having read some information on the internet suggesting that the car had to be able to tow the MAM of the trailer in order to be legal, rather than me just ensuring that the trailer plus the load remained within the car's towing capacity, so the confirmation that it's not the former is very very helpful.
Thanks again!
Vici

 

[ROG]

I'd been really confused, having read some information on the internet suggesting that the car had to be able to tow the MAM of the trailer in order to be legal

That is one of those internet myths doing the rounds

There is no law or rule stating that the manufacturers recommended towing capacity must be able to accommodate the MAM of the trailer and if you find someone saying there is then ask them to point out the law stating such

The VOSA link in my signature below also confirms what I have stated

 

[Helen@muddyhooves]

Hi Rog, thanks so much for doing this.
I've got an skoda octavia scout 4x4 and a pre 1997 car license. Not got the horse box yet, so have put 1600kg & 900kg in for the trailer details.... but would appreciate any advise about wether I should be looking for something lighter. Been trying to read all about this stuff but then my brain exploded - hoping you can set me right...

B+ E
Kerbweight 1530 kg
GVW - 2155 kg
GTW - 1600 kg (braked)
MAM of trailer 1600
Unladen trailer weight 900 kg.

 

[ROG]

Hi Rog, thanks so much for doing this.
I've got an skoda octavia scout 4x4 and a pre 1997 car license. Not got the horse box yet, so have put 1600kg & 900kg in for the trailer details.... but would appreciate any advise about wether I should be looking for something lighter. Been trying to read all about this stuff but then my brain exploded - hoping you can set me right...

B+ E
Kerbweight 1530 kg
GVW - 2155 kg
GTW - 1600 kg (braked)
MAM of trailer 1600
Unladen trailer weight 900 kg.

Trailer MAM of 1600 seems low !!

Max weight to put in trailer will be 700 kgs
900+700=1600

 

[Helen@muddyhooves]

Trailer MAM of 1600 seems low !!

Max weight to put in trailer will be 700 kgs
900+700=1600

Ahh, well I did pluck that a bit.. if I wanted to tow one 600kg horse, with my skoda scout, what would the specifications of the trailer need to be (sorry to be asking this around the wrong way!).... as then I can use that as my guide for searching for a trailer!

Thanks Rog, this is really appreciated...

 

[ROG]

Ahh, well I did pluck that a bit.. if I wanted to tow one 600kg horse, with my skoda scout, what would the specifications of the trailer need to be (sorry to be asking this around the wrong way!).... as then I can use that as my guide for searching for a trailer!

Thanks Rog, this is really appreciated...

If you know the towing capacity for the vehicle then you need the unladen weight of the trailer plus the weight of the horse or whatever you are going to put in the trailer to be no more than the towing capacity or trailer MAM when added together

Example -
Towing capacity 1400
Trailer MAM 1600
Empty trailer 800
Horse/load 550
Total = 1350 so that leaves 50 spare