What to do when there is not turnout HELP!!

[Starzaan]

I'd rather not keep horses at all if it becomes normal for no turnout.

Absolutely this. If I can’t turn my horses out, I will no longer have horses. I wouldn’t be able to live with myself knowing they couldn’t go out. I’d feel so mean, and I know that I no longer have the time to even remotely try to make it work with riding twice a day, hand grazing etc.

 

[Winters100]

I really don't know how anyone manages without turnout for anything other than a really short time. The sheer time commitment to give them adequate time out of the box must be incredible. When one of mine had a hoof infection so could not go into the wet paddock for, if I remember correctly, about 10 days, it was a nightmare. Having to be there at the crack of dawn to turn out in the arena before anyone wanted it, and then again late at night, plus racing to the yard at lunchtime to handwalk... I would not wish it on anyone.

 

[ycbm]

I'd rather horse were stood in a dry stable all day than stood in the wet round a ring feeder all day. And I know from close observation of horses at home in a big field and a big barn that most horses with a ready food supply move a hell of a lot less than most (not all) "got to be 24/7 turnout" advocates think.

And although I am not advocating it for any horse, I've probably personally seen upwards of 150 horses which were kept in for 6 months of the year with a minimum of an hour's ridden exercise a day who did not appear to be in any way unhappy with the situation.
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[Gallop_Away]

Absolutely this. If I can’t turn my horses out, I will no longer have horses. I wouldn’t be able to live with myself knowing they couldn’t go out. I’d feel so mean, and I know that I no longer have the time to even remotely try to make it work with riding twice a day, hand grazing etc.

Completely agree. It is something I feel so strongly about. How anyone can think it acceptable to keep an animal in a 12ft x 12ft box for 22hours a day is beyond me. I would sooner sell my horses if I couldn't provide adequate daily turnout.
Turnout is about so much more than physical exercise. It's about allowing a horse time to be a horse. Play, roll, and socialise with other horses. Exercising a horse can not replicate this. It's as much about a horse's mental well being as much as their physical.
I am aware that competition horses tend to be stabled but I think this is a very dated way of thinking and I have a huge amount of respect for people like Carl Hester and Charlotte Dujardin who compete at some of the highest levels, yet their horses get turned out.
Racehorses are usually stabled and I think it's no coincidence that ulcers and stable vices are generally fairly common amongst them. Some of it is due to how they are fed but many vices can be attributed to boredom and stress.
People can attempt to justify it all they want but ultimately it is not natural for a social herd animal such as a horse, that is designed to be moving around grazing for anything up to 20 hours a day, to be confined to a stable for the majority of the time. I wouldn't lock my dog in a cage for up to 22hours a day so why on earth would I do it to my horses? It's cruel in my opinion.
And yes I'm fully aware there isn't anything natural about a human hopping on top of a horse and riding it, but ultimately we have chosen to domesticate these animals, and we owe it to them to do our utmost for their natural health and well-being.
Our winter paddock is trashed by the gateway by March, but the paddocks are rested throughout the summer to recover. Good land management and rotating paddocks means they recover well over the summer and are ready to go again by October.
I think it's sad that more and more yards seem to be restricting turnout during winter. I am so thankful to have a YO were turnout is readily available all year. I have happy healthy mud ponies coming in at night. The way it should be in my humble opinion.

 

[Velcrobum]

I would like to ask all the posters who say no turnout is cruel. If your horse was injured and needed 6 months box rest but had every expectation of returning to a normal ridden life after treatment for said injury would you proceed with box rest or would you PTS because it would be cruel to go ahead with no turnout??

This is not a hypothetical question as I have had to do this to treat a severe tendon injury acquired when turned out being a horse. The horse did not develop ulcers or a "stable vice" and is now back having turnout /mud time!!

 

[Gallop_Away]

I would like to ask all the posters who say no turnout is cruel. If your horse was injured and needed 6 months box rest but had every expectation of returning to a normal ridden life after treatment for said injury would you proceed with box rest or would you PTS because it would be cruel to go ahead with no turnout??

This is not a hypothetical question as I have had to do this to treat a severe tendon injury acquired when turned out being a horse. The horse did not develop ulcers or a "stable vice" and is now back having turnout /mud time!!

Of course I would, and have box rested my horses when my vet has recommended it. However, I think it's a completely different situation for a horse to be kept in for it's own well being to recover from an injury, as opposed to being kept in for it's owner's convenience.
There is also a vast difference between keeping a horse in for 6 months out of it's entire life, and keeping it in every winter for years on end......
Also I did not say that stabling a horse automatically means it will develop stable vices/ulcers. It does not happen in all cases but I don't think it's a coincidence stable vices are particularly common in horses such as racehorses that are stabled for long periods throughout their lives (not just 6 months box rest ?)

 

[Fire sign]

My yard has just stopped turning out due to the field being to muddy and dangerous and if they continue to go out we will never have grass again! My boy needs turnout he struggles a lot with ulcers and has literally just recovered and is back on top form finally after a lot of time and money!! I need HELP on how to stop those ulcers coming back and how to keep him happy as he will be in for the foreseeable future

What facilities does this yard have and how much time do you have available to exercise your horse?

Does it have an indoor school ?

An outdoor school ?

A horse walker ?

An area suitable for lunging ?

Turn out pens?

Safe hacking ?

I would commit to providing regular exercise for my horse at least once every single day using the facilities at my disposal .. if the yard has a horse walker I would expect to be able to use it every day , if I couldn't ride because it was too dark or I was short of time then I would lunge. If I was time poor but had funds I would pay someone at the yard to do this for me . I would make sure the horse was in a regular routine for feeding and grooming and knew what to expect and if every other horse was kept in I wouldn't worry too much .. horses are very adaptable and Spring will soon be here

 

[ester]

If, for instance, I lived on the outskirts of london and would be for the foreseeable so there wasn't enough fields to turnout and never would be within a reasonable distance I would not keep a horse.
If in 6 months time I had a plan to move somewhere else in the country where there was less land pressure and more access to grazing I would keep the horse (though I also might live away from said horse for the preceding 6 months).

The difference is permanent v. temporary v. necessary for horse's welfare. (obv the horse doesn't know if permament or temporary)

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I would like to ask all the posters who say no turnout is cruel. If your horse was injured and needed 6 months box rest but had every expectation of returning to a normal ridden life after treatment for said injury would you proceed with box rest or would you PTS because it would be cruel to go ahead with no turnout??

This is not a hypothetical question as I have had to do this to treat a severe tendon injury acquired when turned out being a horse. The horse did not develop ulcers or a "stable vice" and is now back having turnout /mud time!!

This was my logic with Mim having less turnout at the yard she’s at now.

It’s not permanent, it’s something like box rest - better than box rest because she’s still out a couple of times a day. If she’s in for a few weeks, so be it. It’s not a bad thing that she learns to be well behaved when stabled as well as when out. And she has been an absolute star.

I wouldn’t keep my horses stabled 24/7 but having them in 24/7 for a few days or weeks due to weather conditions etc isn’t an issue to me. She will live out 24/7 when she’s back at home again, but for a few weeks, I think it’s actually a useful piece of training for her.

 

[Winters100]

I would like to ask all the posters who say no turnout is cruel. If your horse was injured and needed 6 months box rest but had every expectation of returning to a normal ridden life after treatment for said injury would you proceed with box rest or would you PTS because it would be cruel to go ahead with no turnout??

This is not a hypothetical question as I have had to do this to treat a severe tendon injury acquired when turned out being a horse. The horse did not develop ulcers or a "stable vice" and is now back having turnout /mud time!!

To me box rest with the expectation of a good recovery is a totally different issue. Whether I would put a horse through 6 months box rest would depend upon many factors, the character of the horse, the age of the horse and other considerations, but I would not rule it out if the prognosis was good.

Likewise I would enforce bed rest on a child if it was a necessary part of treatment, but I would not keep a healthy child confined to their bed.

 

[ycbm]

Posted on both threads on this subject at the moment.

I would not keep a horse in a way which makes it unhappy. I've seen unhappy horses spending too much time in a box and unhappy horses which dislike the company of others, unhappy horses standing around in soggy ground and unhappy horses who will injure themselves to get out of a field and back into a stable.

There is no one size fits all for horses and it's perfectly possibly to keep the the right horse with the right management very happy and healthy with no turnout.
.

 

[Starzaan]

I would like to ask all the posters who say no turnout is cruel. If your horse was injured and needed 6 months box rest but had every expectation of returning to a normal ridden life after treatment for said injury would you proceed with box rest or would you PTS because it would be cruel to go ahead with no turnout??

This is not a hypothetical question as I have had to do this to treat a severe tendon injury acquired when turned out being a horse. The horse did not develop ulcers or a "stable vice" and is now back having turnout /mud time!!

This would depend on the horse and the prognosis. I manage a rehab yard, and it is a full time job keeping a horse on compete box rest.
For mine? One of mine would be PTS immediately rather than box resting for any more than a week. He colics if he’s not turned out. He would simply kill himself.
the other I’m not so sure. But I think I would potentially go the same way as he would be miserable. I would maybe investigate barn rest for him rather than box. It’s an interesting question though, snd one I think should be considered more.

 

[laura_nash]

Posted on both threads on this subject at the moment.

I would not keep a horse in a way which makes it unhappy. I've seen unhappy horses spending too much time in a box and unhappy horses which dislike the company of others, unhappy horses standing around in soggy ground and unhappy horses who will injure themselves to get out of a field and back into a stable.

There is no one size fits all for horses and it's perfectly possibly to keep the the right horse with the right management very happy and healthy with no turnout.
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I've known horses happy and healthy with no turnout, though I wouldn't have been able to keep them as they were being kept without either giving up work or having full time staff. I've also known horses happy and healthy without any access to a grassy field but I would say they did have turnout as they had free movement and could socialise.

I would give up horses rather than keep one stabled full-time in standard stables on a typical UK livery yard all winter though.

 

[Starzaan]

Posted on both threads on this subject at the moment.

I would not keep a horse in a way which makes it unhappy. I've seen unhappy horses spending too much time in a box and unhappy horses which dislike the company of others, unhappy horses standing around in soggy ground and unhappy horses who will injure themselves to get out of a field and back into a stable.

There is no one size fits all for horses and it's perfectly possibly to keep the the right horse with the right management very happy and healthy with no turnout.
.

This. I agree entirely. There isn’t a one size fits all, and there are definitely some who would be fine kept in. Personally I don’t like it, but then I have encountered the odd horse who is actually happier in than out.
I have one currently who colics at the drop of a hat if he is kept in. He is in at night, but if he’s in late, or brought in early, he absolutely loses the plot. He was a neglect case and came to me as an emergency rehab livery (and never left haha! Best £1 I ever spent!). He was shut in and abandoned for nine months. How he didn’t die I don’t know, but its left him a gibbering wreck and turnout is the MOST important thing to him.

 

[TealH0rse]

Yes but it’s still getting him fresh air and stretching his legs

Do you have a school? We used to know someone who left their horse in the school for 30mins-1hr (time permitting) while they did their yard jobs.

Can only really be done if it’s safe. Like everyone has said above, you can’t beat turnout - you need to weigh the pros and cons of stress moving yards vs potential physical issues. Personally, I would move.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Usually by this time of year my tb won't stay out. He absolutely hates it. Currently he is managing 3 to 4 hours. Over the last few days he has been showing signs that he is going to kick off again and refuse to stay out. He may be ok tomorrow as forecast is windy but mild. Tuesday however is cold and windy and that might be the last straw. If that's the case he will then be in until spring. It's his choice, certainly not mine, but he couldn't make it any clearer that he hates it. All horses are different.

 

[Velcrobum]

This would depend on the horse and the prognosis. I manage a rehab yard, and it is a full time job keeping a horse on compete box rest.
For mine? One of mine would be PTS immediately rather than box resting for any more than a week. He colics if he’s not turned out. He would simply kill himself.
the other I’m not so sure. But I think I would potentially go the same way as he would be miserable. I would maybe investigate barn rest for him rather than box. It’s an interesting question though, snd one I think should be considered more.

Thank you, I asked the question as many posters were rather black and white in their answers to the original post whilst there are many many shades of grey on this topic. Absolutely there are many factors involved in if it is right or not for each equid and each equid need to be considered as an individual with its own needs.

My OH who is an absolute novice at horse care is insistent that his field ornament goes out despite the fact the poor boy has to be dragged to the field and cannot wait to come in as he hates the mud. In late spring if fields are dry, summer and autumn he and his mate are out 24/7. The field ornament was purchased so non rider OH spent hours in the saddle having decided he wanted to go on a riding safari in the Okovango Delta, he thought a few riding lessons would be enough!!! I deal with all the care of the boy, appropriate feeding, worming, vaccinations, dentist, farrier vets, rugs as needed etc etc.

 

[Gallop_Away]

There is no one size fits all for horses and it's perfectly possibly to keep the the right horse with the right management very happy and healthy with no turnout.
.

I completely agree that horses are all individuals and require different management styles to suit their needs. I would no more see my lot shut in a stable 22hrs a day than I would see them stood knee deep in mud 24/7.
Yes no doubt there are some horses that do not suit turnout but I do not think it is incorrect to say that horses are naturally herd animals and the vast majority seek out company of others and enjoy play/grooming etc together. They vast majority also enjoy freedom free from a handler/rider to move and roll and have a stretch.
Turnout can also mean lots of things. It does not necessarily have to be on grass. Turnout can be in a large school or barn. It isn't about grazing so much as it is about giving the horse "down time" and time to just be a horse.
I would think in order to keep horses sufficiently managed with no turnout, while it may be possible in some cases, it would take a great deal of time and effort and to be honest would be beyond the capability of the average owner, who may be managing on DIY and working full time plus managing families and personal lives. I'm not saying it is impossible but I think many people would struggle. In my opinion a horse not only needs daily exercise in that situation but again a break away from "work" such as hand grazing for several hours and time in a large enclosure at the very least. I know myself and majority of my horse owning friends would struggle to fit all that in.
So whilst I agree it may be possible with the right horse, and the right management routine, I would argue it would be the exception rather than the norm.
I stand by my view that the vast majority of horses benefit from turnout daily and being stabled for the majority of time for the owner's convenience (i.e. not a random few months whilst recovering from an injury or training a youngster) is not ideal in most situations and I do go as far as to call it cruel. I find it odd how if someone told you they locked their dog in a cage 23hours a day, but not to worry as it gets two walks a day, most people would be horrified and rightly so. I don't see how it is any different with horses I'm afraid.

 

[ycbm]

Horses are actually only programed to move to run away from predators or to find food. Unthreatened by predators and with food at their feet, it's my observation that they barely move. It's a survival strategy to save using unnecessary energy.

I've had lots of horses over the years, and currently have one (and therefore a pair) who don't engage in mutual grooming. A lot of what people describe as "play" is behaviour to establish dominance and I would question how "enjoyable" that is to a horse, however natural it may be.

I am not advocating keeping horses without turnout, but I do think calling it cruelty, given the right horse in the right routine, completely over the top.
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[Gallop_Away]

Horses are actually only programed to move to run away from predators or to find food. Unthreatened by predators and with food at their feet, it's my observation that they barely move. It's a survival strategy to save using unnecessary energy.

I've had lots of horses over the years, and currently have one (and therefore a pair) who don't engage in mutual grooming. A lot of what people describe as "play" is behaviour to establish dominance and I would question how "enjoyable" that is to a horse, however natural it may be.

I am not advocating keeping horses without turnout, but I do think calling it cruelty, given the right horse in the right routine, completely over the top.
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That is your opinion which you are of course entitled to
I watch my horses frequently galloping and bucking around their field. Perfectly calm and not looking for the nasty horse eating monster, but just enjoying a dam good hoon around. I watch them groom one another and roll around in the mud next to each other. They seem happy enough to me.
I stand by my opinion that keeping most horses stabled for the majority of the day for the owner's own convenience cruel and I make no apologies for that.

 

[Upthecreek]

Usually by this time of year my tb won't stay out. He absolutely hates it. Currently he is managing 3 to 4 hours. Over the last few days he has been showing signs that he is going to kick off again and refuse to stay out. He may be ok tomorrow as forecast is windy but mild. Tuesday however is cold and windy and that might be the last straw. If that's the case he will then be in until spring. It's his choice, certainly not mine, but he couldn't make it any clearer that he hates it. All horses are different.

Is your boy on individual turnout?

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

Horses are actually only programed to move to run away from predators or to find food. Unthreatened by predators and with food at their feet, it's my observation that they barely move. It's a survival strategy to save using unnecessary energy.

I've had lots of horses over the years, and currently have one (and therefore a pair) who don't engage in mutual grooming. A lot of what people describe as "play" is behaviour to establish dominance and I would question how "enjoyable" that is to a horse, however natural it may be.

I am not advocating keeping horses without turnout, but I do think calling it cruelty, given the right horse in the right routine, completely over the top.
.

This is definitely the case with my older ponies. They live out 24/7, and I've spent a fortune on a lovely long mud control path for them to wander from the hay/water down to the shelter even when the ground is like pea soup.

They spend exactly half the day stood still at one haynet, then they walk 100yds down to the shelter where there's a second haynet. That's it! And they've got such a lovely field, with hawthorn and bramble hedges to nibble, and lovely views (OK, I'm clutching at straws now) but hay is king.

I take *some* comfort in the fact that 98% of the time they do choose the outside haynet first, but honestly, I'm not sure they'd even notice if they were stabled ?‍

 

[Apizz2019]

I would like to ask all the posters who say no turnout is cruel. If your horse was injured and needed 6 months box rest but had every expectation of returning to a normal ridden life after treatment for said injury would you proceed with box rest or would you PTS because it would be cruel to go ahead with no turnout??

This is not a hypothetical question as I have had to do this to treat a severe tendon injury acquired when turned out being a horse. The horse did not develop ulcers or a "stable vice" and is now back having turnout /mud time!!

This is a really good, thought provoking question, as most of us are aghast at the thought of a horse having no turn out.

I'm glad all has worked out well for your horse. I can imagine the blood, sweat and tears it's taken to get where you are now.

I think the answer to your question isn't black and white as every horse is individual, as is every owner.

The only time I've ever had to think about this was when our pony came down with laminitis in May. Thankfully it was very mild and he recovered quickly but I did have a moment of 'what if he has to stay in for months on end' to ponder.

Honestly, if it had come to the point of him not getting better and we were faced with untold time on box rest, with a poor prognosis, I'd have pts without hesitation.

I have a friend who is on month 13 box rest with a laminitic pony and while I applaud her commitment, I do feel terribly sorry for the pony who is clearly unhappy.

I'm sure each and every one of us would do what was right, if faced with such a situation. There is no right or wrong answer, as is often the case with our beloved equines.

I often think, because we can, doesn't mean we should.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Is your boy on individual turnout?

He has been in with my other horse but it ended in injury so separated again.

 

[Winters100]

Posted on both threads on this subject at the moment.

I would not keep a horse in a way which makes it unhappy. I've seen unhappy horses spending too much time in a box and unhappy horses which dislike the company of others, unhappy horses standing around in soggy ground and unhappy horses who will injure themselves to get out of a field and back into a stable.

There is no one size fits all for horses and it's perfectly possibly to keep the the right horse with the right management very happy and healthy with no turnout.
.

Spot on, I agree. I do however think that many miss your point about it being only possible for some horses, and most importantly with the right management. I remember one thread here from a lady keeping 2 or 3 horses without turnout, with their only respite being 10 minutes in hand each day. Although I would not like to keep mine with no turnout, and I do believe that for most horses the freedom and interaction with others is necessary, I do accept that it can be done with the right resources. Unfortunately very few 'average' owners, me included, would have the necessary time to manage such a situation properly.

 

[Upthecreek]

He has been in with my other horse but it ended in injury so separated again.

I only asked because it does seem that many horses on individual turnout prefer to come in when the weather turns. I assume because they don’t have the strong connection and desire to stay with their field mates that horses kept in a herd have.

 

[ycbm]

That is your opinion which you are of course entitled to
I watch my horses frequently galloping and bucking around their field. Perfectly calm and not looking for the nasty horse eating monster, but just enjoying a dam good hoon around. I watch them groom one another and roll around in the mud next to each other. They seem happy enough to me.
I stand by my opinion that keeping most horses stabled for the majority of the day for the owner's own convenience cruel and I make no apologies for that.

I think it is unreasonable for you to extrapolate from your very small sample of horses to call other people cruel for their management of their horses.

Do what you consider right by all means but there is no need for that level of criticism of others.
.

 

[HashRouge]

I would like to ask all the posters who say no turnout is cruel. If your horse was injured and needed 6 months box rest but had every expectation of returning to a normal ridden life after treatment for said injury would you proceed with box rest or would you PTS because it would be cruel to go ahead with no turnout??

This is not a hypothetical question as I have had to do this to treat a severe tendon injury acquired when turned out being a horse. The horse did not develop ulcers or a "stable vice" and is now back having turnout /mud time!!

My Arab was box rested for about 3 months when she and I were both a lot younger, as part of her recovery from a very nasty knee injury. I actually question a lot of the way that her rehab was managed, as I'm absolutely certain she could have done small paddock rest or at least been hand grazed with absolutely no issues, but hey I was 14 and doing what the vet told me, so she barely left the stable in all that time. And she was pretty chill about the whole thing tbh. So yes I would do a long period of box rest where the prognosis was good, so long as I knew the horse could cope with it. Now it's a bit different, as she's nearly 29 so even a short period of box rest would need to be very carefully considered. My other one I would not box rest - he is a chronic crib biter due to a prolonged period of box rest as a young horse and he doesn't like being in. He will come in fine if I need to stable due to weather, but really that is only for the old mare - he would much rather stay out.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

I would like to ask all the posters who say no turnout is cruel. If your horse was injured and needed 6 months box rest but had every expectation of returning to a normal ridden life after treatment for said injury would you proceed with box rest or would you PTS because it would be cruel to go ahead with no turnout??

This is not a hypothetical question as I have had to do this to treat a severe tendon injury acquired when turned out being a horse. The horse did not develop ulcers or a "stable vice" and is now back having turnout /mud time!!

I would not box rest my horses for 6 months as I know they would be extremely stressed with such a situation and the resulting ill health that could be triggered by it would not sit right with me. Saying that every horse is different and some would settle in such a situation but I know mine would not.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I think it is unreasonable for you to extrapolate from your very small sample of horses to call other people cruel for their management of their horses.

Do what you consider right by all means but there is no need for that level of criticism of others.
.

With the greatest of respect ycbm you do not know me or my experience with horses. I currently own 3 but have worked with horses and been around horses most of my life. My husband has also had over 30 years experience with horses.
I do not base my opinion solely on just my own horses but also through my own experience of horses over the years.
I reiterate. I would not deem it acceptable to lock an animal in a cage for most of the day. I would consider it cruel and horses imo are no different. There may be some carefully managed exeptions, and again I would argue the level of management these horses would require as a substitute to turnout would be beyond the capabilities of the average owner.
We are clearly not going to see eye to eye on the matter so I'm happy to leave it at that?