What was Jamie Grays' line of business?

[jhoward]

it wasnt just the rspca though, it was also the police, which suggests that it was a well thought out raid. so... the answer .. beacuse somebody tipped them off? or because they had had previous dealings with jg and knew what was likly to be behind the closed doors.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As you did not go to the farm prior to the raid, how did you know the horses were not living in the dirty barns seen on the video? You say it is the truth - according to who as you didn't see it?



[/ QUOTE ]

I asked the same question some pages ago and the reply I got :
[ QUOTE ]
Because Claire Ryder gave evidence that she had never had any problems with the beds at SF. This leads me to believe that what Mr Gray said concerning that barn is the truth. Those photos were taken on the 4th of Jan, that barn was being cleared on the 9th but KH had a stop put to it. She denied this of course but her peers did not.

[/ QUOTE ]

so basically hearsay

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were inviting Claire Ryder or any other vet to your premises to treat a horse, wouldn't you throw a bit of extra straw down and hide all the emaciated horses round the back out of sight?

Also, vets aren't in the habit of 'sniffing round'. They come to do the job, treat the horse, and then go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Claire Ryder is RSPCA and she was never invited - she used to drop by to make sure everything was ok being the line of business JG was in. And there is nowhere at SF to hide anything.

 

[teddyt]

[ QUOTE ]
it wasnt just the rspca though, it was also the police, which suggests that it was a well thought out raid. so... the answer .. beacuse somebody tipped them off? or because they had had previous dealings with jg and knew what was likly to be behind the closed doors.

[/ QUOTE ]

So there was a planned raid at SF with the police and the RSPCA? Very interesting. As far as i am aware (from watching The Bill

) the police dont just rock up somewhere because they have nothing better to do. There must have been quite a compelling reason why the RSPCA and police would plan a raid. They would hardly go to all that effort (and cost) just because an old lady phoned up and complained.
Maybe Patty can enlighten us a bit as to why the RSPCA and police felt the need to make a raid.

 

[jhoward]

im not 100% sure about it being completely orginised but being that the police were in attendence and JG had tried to hit a police officer id suggest that it was pre empted.

 

[Happy Horse]

Maybe someone had seen the dead horses in the field buried under the rubbish and reported them to the RSPCA. The police were probably in attendance in case things got out of hand, say for example someone threatened to release Rottweilers on the vets or RSPCA officers.

 

[jacks_mum]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As you did not go to the farm prior to the raid, how did you know the horses were not living in the dirty barns seen on the video? You say it is the truth - according to who as you didn't see it?



[/ QUOTE ]

I asked the same question some pages ago and the reply I got :
[ QUOTE ]
Because Claire Ryder gave evidence that she had never had any problems with the beds at SF. This leads me to believe that what Mr Gray said concerning that barn is the truth. Those photos were taken on the 4th of Jan, that barn was being cleared on the 9th but KH had a stop put to it. She denied this of course but her peers did not.

[/ QUOTE ]

so basically hearsay

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case all the oral evidence given by the prosecution witnesses is all hearsay?

[/ QUOTE ]

as I understand it the prosecution witnesses were either present on the day - so definitely NOT hearsay - or examined the horses themselves - again NOT hearsay - or worked from photographs and video footage taken by people there on the day. Perhaps the last could at a push be described as hearsay but not in my opinion. Do you have any dated pictures of the farm and horses prior to the raid that can be posted that show conditions?

 

[teddyt]

Well, i cant see PC Plod turning to his mate and saying "Im fed up with all these burglars. Why dont we go down to that beautiful farm with all those lovely horses and that nice family of animal lovers. We could get the RSPCA along for good measure, i rather fancy that blonde inspector. I love a good day out in the countryside and If anyone asks why we would go to so much effort to raid the place we could just say we were being nosey".

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="black"> Patty, yet again you havnt actually answered a question. Youve given a reply but not answers.

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="black">
e.g. JG buys a horse for £1.

[/ QUOTE ]

So says the media.

<font color="red"> e.g means for example Patty. But what do you say he paid for the horses?

[/ QUOTE ]

All different prices but certainly not a £1.

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="black"> [ QUOTE ]
<font color="black"> Costs include travelling it at least once (diesel, lorry tax, lorry plating, driver wages), worming on the lorry (as you have said), Hay (£2.50+ bale, usually horses eat at least 1 bale a day), bedding, hard feed, water, business rates, veterinary treatment (as you have said) one call out &amp; examination is £50+ without treatment, farrier, time/wages....

[/ QUOTE ]

And??? Are you saying that every trader is up to no good because you believe they cant possibly make money while having all the above to pay for?

<font color="red"> Blimey youre thick! No, i never said every trader is up to no good. I dont believe you cant make money giving the above example. I KNOW! Its not rocket science. Its not even GCSE maths. A child of ten can work out that if something costs more than they sell it for then you dont make money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the personal comment!!

JG was like any other trader. What more do you want me to say?

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="black"> How many thin and ill horses can be seen in the images?
<font color="red"> Too many

[/ QUOTE ]

How many?

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="black"> [ QUOTE ]
<font color="black"> he didnt even use much of his hay, bedding, hard feed, sufficient veterinary treatment, etc,

[/ QUOTE ]

And you know this how exactly?

<font color="red"> Again, not exactly hard to work out. But as you are having trouble - Horses that are fed properly arent emaciated. Horses that are mucked out and have fresh bedding dont stand several inches in sh!t. 20% of horses in yards that care for their animals dont drop down dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many emaciated horses were there?

1 barn which was in a bad way. How many more?

Those yards have not suffered a red worm burden.


[ QUOTE ]
<font color="black"> He looked after them as well as any horseman should look after his horses. And looking after his stock is exactly how he made money.
<font color="red"> Whose definition of looking after? Yours? JGs? Certainly not mine. My horses dont look anything like the ones from SF. But then they have enough food and vet treatment when needed so they dont drop down dead or need to be kicked to stand up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The evidence produced in court refuted all those claims.

If you brought a poor horse would you expect it to look how YOUR horse does NOW within the matter of weeks? How about the horses that were not published - does your horse look better than they looked when they were removed from SF?

JG produced his veterinaey bills for the animals that did need treatment.

And as for the kicking - thats more bullsh!t but that you like to believe that hearsay. I cant possibly understand why when you are suppose to be an animal lover.

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="black"> I have some questions of my own if you dont mind.

How many horses did you see in bad body condition? <font color="red"> Too many <font color="black">

[/ QUOTE ]

How many?

[ QUOTE ]
And how long did he own those particular animals? <font color="red"> You know the answer to this (apparently) so why are you asking me?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm asking you because you are the one blaming JG for the animals being in certain conditions. Maybe you should keep such statments to yourself when you dont actually know if they are correct.


[ QUOTE ]
<font color="black"> How do you know he was not treating those sick animals? <font color="red"> Because over 20 were dead

[/ QUOTE ]

Some were pets that he had lost ovet the years. As for the others - they suffered an undetected red worm. Something that could easy happen to your horse.

Concerning the sick animals which were removed - how do you know he was not treating them?


[ QUOTE ]
<font color="black"> How do you know those animals had not improved since he got them? <font color="red"> You obviously didnt pay attention when i answered this question earlier

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously not - So How do you know those animals had not improved since he got them?

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
Question for patty - Why did the RSPCA just turn up at SF?

They must have had a reason to be there in the first place. The RSPCA dont just turn up for no reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where animal traders are concerned they DO just turn up for no reason.

Claire Ryder was the local inspector who used to drop in unannounced at SF.

 

[jhoward]

correct to a degree patty.

they do turn up unannouced IF they have had previous dealings with the person in question.. they do regualr checks.

the rspca had HAD previous dealings with spindles farm/jamie gray had they not?

 

[Gladioli]

Patty you have said there was only one dirty barn which was not clean and fluffy (sorry paraphrasing and I cant copy and paste at the moment) How do you propose it got in that state if it was not for animals being in there, therefore they must have at some point have been living in there for it to get full of faeces? Do you agree? or am I missing the point here? Do you think it is ok for some horses to be housed like at all?

An answer to these questions/ statements would be appreciated.

I have been involved with horses for over 20 years, I know the good dealers and I know the bad dealers, I know what obviously sick horses look like, I know what emaciated horses look like. I think you are insulting people's intelligence by suggesting that those horses were well looked after, if you wish to suggest that maybe a horse forum is not the best place to do it as most people here are experienced with the care of horses. I also know the good work that organisations such as the ILPH and Redwings do, If they did not think that the horses were in need of rescuing they would have distanced themselves from the whole situation. They would not be involved in something that could potentially harm their reputation.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
it wasnt just the rspca though, it was also the police, which suggests that it was a well thought out raid. so... the answer .. beacuse somebody tipped them off? or because they had had previous dealings with jg and knew what was likly to be behind the closed doors.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was most certainly a well thought out raid. Something which was denied by rspca.

Apparently they had a call from a member of the public which was their reason for going to the farm on the 4th of Jan 08.

The animals which were removed on the 9th were all deemed as safe by vets on the 4th. However, the rspca thinking they knew better than the vets went back on the 9th and removed the remaining animals. They denied that removing the remaining animals was their intention on that day but that was another lie. They had it all planned. None of those animals which were removed on the 9th had been examined by a vet to justify the removal. Vets arrived on site after the rspca. The animals were being numbered and loaded within 10 mins of the rspca arriving at SF on the 9th. Vet arrived during all the commotion.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
or worked from photographs and video footage taken by people there on the day. Perhaps the last could at a push be described as hearsay but not in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

No, hearsay is to repeat someone elses words as fact. Evidence can be given based on photographs and an opinion sought on their content - that is not hearsay.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As you did not go to the farm prior to the raid, how did you know the horses were not living in the dirty barns seen on the video? You say it is the truth - according to who as you didn't see it?



[/ QUOTE ]

I asked the same question some pages ago and the reply I got :
[ QUOTE ]
Because Claire Ryder gave evidence that she had never had any problems with the beds at SF. This leads me to believe that what Mr Gray said concerning that barn is the truth. Those photos were taken on the 4th of Jan, that barn was being cleared on the 9th but KH had a stop put to it. She denied this of course but her peers did not.

[/ QUOTE ]

so basically hearsay

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case all the oral evidence given by the prosecution witnesses is all hearsay?

[/ QUOTE ]

as I understand it the prosecution witnesses were either present on the day - so definitely NOT hearsay - or examined the horses themselves - again NOT hearsay - or worked from photographs and video footage taken by people there on the day. Perhaps the last could at a push be described as hearsay but not in my opinion. Do you have any dated pictures of the farm and horses prior to the raid that can be posted that show conditions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Claire Ryder was the rspca inspector who used to drop in at SF and who was present at the raid - so definitrly NOT hearsay.

 

[teddyt]

Ok Patty. You keep asking how do people know that the horses werent in a state when JG bought them. And how long he had owned them. And you keep maintaining that they were fed, etc. And you keep drawing attention to the fact that not 100% of the horses were thin. Also, that JG did make money.
So, from this i am gathering that JG bought horses in various condition. He did feed them and he did give some veterinary care. He didnt keep them very long but sold them for a profit. Unfortunately some that he bought were half dead anyway, they unfortunately died whilst in JG ownership. This was not due to his lack of care but due to the fact they were in a state when he bought them. This is what you are maintaining? Yes?

You say he doesnt sell for meat and that some were for riding but not all. You dispute that there was any underhand reason e.g. drugs. He couldnt have sold that many for riding as alot were very young, and he didnt have any employees, just him and his son. So, a small percentage of his money was made from riding horses. We are on page 18 now and the OP question has still not been answered- WHAT WAS JGs LINE OF BUSINESS?

There is quite a market for meat in holland, where you say JG travelled to frequently. Yet you are adamant this is not why he sold horses. The huge number of horses he dealt with must have an end use, so why not meat? And if not meat then why did he have such a huge turnover of animals and for what market? Page 18 and you have still not answered the question Patty. Either you have been fed a few lies from your 'contacts' or you are deluded into thinking JGs business was all pink and fluffy and the horses werent on their way to an abbatoir.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Well let's face it, if they were on their way to the abbatoir, at least they would have finally been spared the living hell that was/is JGs place.

 

[Donkeymad]

Thankyou for answering my questions Patty. Sadly, you have lead us to believe that your notes were with someone else, and that you would give more information once you received them back. How sad that you have actually lost them

 

[maybedaisy]

I haven't read all of this thread but there are some things that are facts.

JG has been convicted
It is not the first time he has been investigated and found guilty in relation to offences of cruelty against his animals.
He was also separately investigated for breaching transport rule in relation to horses which led to them suffering.
People have been convicted for importing drugs and other items in horse boxes
However it would be obvious to any investigator if the drugs had been transported in an animal and removed without passing out naturally.
It is not normal to find animals in that state on any yard.
There will have been evidence that was not presented to the Court as JG's defence will have had it excluded.
Previous convictions will only have been brought up at sentencing
His actions are indefensible and I don't understand how anyone could criticise the RSPCA for taking the remaining animals into protection.

 

[RantBucket]

Well said Maybedaisey

 

[SpruceRI]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok Patty.

You say he doesnt sell for meat and that some were for riding but not all. You dispute that there was any underhand reason e.g. drugs. He couldnt have sold that many for riding as alot were very young, and he didnt have any employees, just him and his son. So, a small percentage of his money was made from riding horses. We are on page 18 now and the OP question has still not been answered- WHAT WAS JGs LINE OF BUSINESS?

There is quite a market for meat in holland, where you say JG travelled to frequently. Yet you are adamant this is not why he sold horses. The huge number of horses he dealt with must have an end use, so why not meat? And if not meat then why did he have such a huge turnover of animals and for what market? Page 18 and you have still not answered the question Patty. Either you have been fed a few lies from your 'contacts' or you are deluded into thinking JGs business was all pink and fluffy and the horses werent on their way to an abbatoir.

[/ QUOTE ]

And well said teddyt

This man is reportedly (by Patty) a horse trader.

But not trading in meat ponies? Most of the ponies shown had no 'meat' on them.

And not as riding ponies given that many were young or pregnant.

He isn't a breeder as such.... the horses he buys in are already pregnant.

As teddyt said, 2 people to look after over 100 horses at a time isn't enough, unless they all lived out on ample grazing and were fed like cattle at feeders by a tractor.

So what EXACTLY is his trade?

Who buys his horses and for what purpose?

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
correct to a degree patty.

they do turn up unannouced IF they have had previous dealings with the person in question.. they do regualr checks.

the rspca had HAD previous dealings with spindles farm/jamie gray had they not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong!! They turn up unannounced to anyone they know of dealing in animals. As for the previos dealing - I have explained this but of course it's not believed.

 

[jhoward]

they DONT turn up unless somebody has raised a reason for them to turn up.

how do i know this? i used to work for the rspca.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
Patty you have said there was only one dirty barn which was not clean and fluffy (sorry paraphrasing and I cant copy and paste at the moment) How do you propose it got in that state if it was not for animals being in there, therefore they must have at some point have been living in there for it to get full of faeces? Do you agree? or am I missing the point here? Do you think it is ok for some horses to be housed like at all?

An answer to these questions/ statements would be appreciated.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you read the thread you see I have already answered this question.


[ QUOTE ]
I have been involved with horses for over 20 years, I know the good dealers and I know the bad dealers, I know what obviously sick horses look like, I know what emaciated horses look like. I think you are insulting people's intelligence by suggesting that those horses were well looked after, if you wish to suggest that maybe a horse forum is not the best place to do it as most people here are experienced with the care of horses.

[/ QUOTE ]


With 20 years experience you'll know that dealers sometimes buy in horses that are not in top condition.

You only know what the rspca/media have told you about JG.

[ QUOTE ]
I also know the good work that organisations such as the ILPH and Redwings do, If they did not think that the horses were in need of rescuing they would have distanced themselves from the whole situation. They would not be involved in something that could potentially harm their reputation.

[/ QUOTE ]


Please dont be so naive.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok Patty. You keep asking how do people know that the horses werent in a state when JG bought them. And how long he had owned them. And you keep maintaining that they were fed, etc. And you keep drawing attention to the fact that not 100% of the horses were thin. Also, that JG did make money.
So, from this i am gathering that JG bought horses in various condition. He did feed them and he did give some veterinary care. He didnt keep them very long but sold them for a profit. Unfortunately some that he bought were half dead anyway, they unfortunately died whilst in JG ownership. This was not due to his lack of care but due to the fact they were in a state when he bought them. This is what you are maintaining? Yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

No he did not buy half dead horses but yes he did all the things a respnsible horseman would do.

[ QUOTE ]
You say he doesnt sell for meat and that some were for riding but not all. You dispute that there was any underhand reason e.g. drugs.

[/ QUOTE ]

JG brought all different kinds of horses but he was not into the meat trade. And the drug nonsense is just that - nonsense.


[ QUOTE ]
He couldnt have sold that many for riding as alot were very young, and he didnt have any employees, just him and his son. So, a small percentage of his money was made from riding horses. We are on page 18 now and the OP question has still not been answered- WHAT WAS JGs LINE OF BUSINESS?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, he brought all different types and did not go for any particular horse. His line of business was trading in horses.

[ QUOTE ]
There is quite a market for meat in holland, where you say JG travelled to frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

And there is aslo a market for coloureds too. He also bought horses back to the UK from Holland.


[ QUOTE ]
Yet you are adamant this is not why he sold horses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats because he didnt. If he was into the meat trade why would he have to hide the fact? It's not illegal.


[ QUOTE ]
The huge number of horses he dealt with must have an end use, so why not meat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it simply was not meat. Why would he have to deny it if he was in the meat trade?

[ QUOTE ]
And if not meat then why did he have such a huge turnover of animals and for what market?

[/ QUOTE ]

All types.

[ QUOTE ]
Page 18 and you have still not answered the question Patty. Either you have been fed a few lies from your 'contacts' or you are deluded into thinking JGs business was all pink and fluffy and the horses werent on their way to an abbatoir.

[/ QUOTE ]

RLMAO....The public have been fed the mother of all lies.

Even though the horses were not on their way to the abbatoir, how would it have been illegal if they were?

Surely if that was the case then JG could have just told the rspca that the poor animals were destined for the abbatior within the next few day etc.....Surely that would have been in his better interest.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
Thankyou for answering my questions Patty. Sadly, you have lead us to believe that your notes were with someone else, and that you would give more information once you received them back. How sad that you have actually lost them

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never lead you to believe they were with someone else and neither have I told you that I have actually lost them.....jumping the gun again I see!!

 

[SpruceRI]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing that you're Anne Kasica then?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're right Madhossy, that would explain a lot:



[/ QUOTE ]

Is this you Patty?

 

[SpruceRI]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok Patty. You keep asking how do people know that the horses werent in a state when JG bought them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Patty: No he did not buy half dead horses but yes he did all the things a respnsible horseman would do.

<font color="red"> So they were well covered when he bought them, but became emaciated in the time they were on his property, is what you're saying?

And then in the next breath, you say that's not true. No wonder we're all confused with your explanations. </font>

[

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read all of this thread but there are some things that are facts.

JG has been convicted
It is not the first time he has been investigated and found guilty in relation to offences of cruelty against his animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have explained about the previous offense and I hope it will be corrected at sentencing.


[ QUOTE ]
He was also separately investigated for breaching transport rule in relation to horses which led to them suffering.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong again!! It's something to do with him not telling DEFRA that he had a previous conviction but JG did not think he needed to as it was overturned upon appeal. I cant be axact but it's something along those lines anyway.


[ QUOTE ]
People have been convicted for importing drugs and other items in horse boxes
However it would be obvious to any investigator if the drugs had been transported in an animal and removed without passing out naturally.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole drug idea came from the air between someones ears.


[ QUOTE ]
It is not normal to find animals in that state on any yard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Has there never been poor horses taken on to a yard and had someone improve their condition?

[ QUOTE ]
There will have been evidence that was not presented to the Court as JG's defence will have had it excluded.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was most certainly evidence that was not presented but it was for the prosecution. Evidence such as the 111 NOT so emaciated horses, shetlands, donkeys, the hay stack, sacks of hard feed, bales upon bales of straw, clean barns with dry straw and clean water and food.

[ QUOTE ]
Previous convictions will only have been brought up at sentencing

[/ QUOTE ]

The so-called previous conviction was brought out during the trial.

[ QUOTE ]
His actions are indefensible and I don't understand how anyone could criticise the RSPCA for taking the remaining animals into protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

The actions the rspca have accused him of are indefensible. But the reality of the matter is a completely different story.

 

[patty19]

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[patty19]

Paddywhack are you a cross dresser?

Your secret will be safe with me