What was Jamie Grays' line of business?

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea how he made any money, since most of the horses he appeared to purchase were very much at the lower end of the scale and there was no real sign of them being brought on as suitable riding horses, or having their condition improved to the point where they would attract a higher price.

[/ QUOTE ]

MH, how the hell can you make such a comment? Please at least give some reason as to why you believe as you do?


[ QUOTE ]
However, i have seen this before, having had dealings with people (almost exclusively travellers) who have horses - because they say it is in their blood, in their family and in their traditions, and often neglect those horses to the point of starvation and death. i don't understand those people either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the traveling community are believed to not take much care of their animals but I can tell you right now, that the travelers who I have encountered take pride in their animals. A traveling man is the envy of others if he has a good horse in a good condition.

[ QUOTE ]
And when JG had horses removed from him and obviously didn't have the proper facilities or time or possibly funds to provide for those, he was seen out at sales buying more, by the lorry load.

[/ QUOTE ]

MH, if he was short of funds how the hell would he have the means to buy lorry loads more?

[ QUOTE ]
It is all a bit beyond me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I suggest you quit making sweeping comments.

 

[tania01]

Why Dont you patty start answering questions that people keep asking instead of going the same crap you keep on repeating?

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
Why Dont you patty start answering questions that people keep asking instead of going the same crap you keep on repeating?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have answere questions but why the hell should I answer more when YOU LOT have not got a decent bone in your bodies talk to me in a civilized manner?

 

[competitiondiva]

I think you'll find that the vast majority here are civilized and decent people that cannot understand how or why you back up JG after that number of horses and donkeys were found dead and emaciated suffering from all sorts of conditions at his premises under his and/or his relatives' care, he's been found guilty in a court of law so please stop defending him, and if he is innocent (like you say he is) he has a right to appeal so lets see if he does!!!

 

[Happy Horse]

Because you don't have the answers? You have still to prove anything at all yet the evidence in the video and given in court by the prosecution is there for all to see and read. Once you come up with some actual proof people may start listening to you.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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I have no idea how he made any money, since most of the horses he appeared to purchase were very much at the lower end of the scale and there was no real sign of them being brought on as suitable riding horses, or having their condition improved to the point where they would attract a higher price.


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MH, how the hell can you make such a comment? Please at least give some reason as to why you believe as you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Patty, what exactly do you know about horses?

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes that's true, one side that thinks animal cruelty is totally unacceptable and must be punished,

[/ QUOTE ]

I am completely and utterly with you here. Animal cruelty is totally unacceptable and should be punished severly. And I think the law in this country needs shaking up a bit and harsher punishments should be handed to those who ARE cruel to animals.

The crimes JG has been accused of are despicable and the punishment for such cruelty should most certainly fit the crime. Sadly that is not so in my honest opinion.

That said, I think the law should scrutinize every piece of evidence to every accusation and those found to be making unjust accusations should also be punished. Sadly, this is not the case either.

[ QUOTE ]
and the other that spends lots and lots of time searching for reasons why they must tell us that good old JG is an OK sort of guy, and all this is some terrible misunderstanding and that the courts have made a ghastly mistake in finding him and his lovely family guilty.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not defending another side to those who will not accept animal cruelty. I too will not accept it like I have already stated.

As for the rest of your comment: Yes you are correct.

 

[tania01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why Dont you patty start answering questions that people keep asking instead of going the same crap you keep on repeating?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have answere questions but why the hell should I answer more when YOU LOT have not got a decent bone in your bodies talk to me in a civilized manner?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but if you bother to check my posts please quote me as you do everyone. where the hell i have been rude to you?

Im not rude to anyone.


I have asked and asked you the same questions and still not had an answer.
The same as alot of people have also asked you alot of questions but still not answered.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]


Patty, what exactly do you know about horses?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I told you I knew every detail of every horse I would be lying because I dont. Though I know the majority of the animals were in good condition and a couple were on antibiotics and another was given bute until the farriar could get out. He had concerns about a little Gray so he called Katie Robinson out to look at it and she said it was ok - that little Gray died on the morning of the raid.

However, I know more about JG and his business.

Most of the siezed animals were purchased in the couple of months leading up to the raid - a couple he had owned for longer. Some of the animals were pets which he had owned for many years - some were pets that he had owned for less time.

Mr Gray would buy and sell horses from the UK, Holland and Belgium. He is also a member of several equine organizations. He sold alot of colourds in Holland which he would purchase from the UK.

Some of the horses Mr Gray would buy may be in less than great condition but he would build them up and sell them on. This he was doing when the raid took place. One horse was actually rescued by him and he was treating it with antibiotics - that horse would have gone to the knacker man if Mr Gray had not taken it - that horse was seized by the RSPCA. Another horse had a bad eye and that too was being treated. Mr Gray gave evidence of this in court.

Mr Gray was not into the meat trade and anyone who knows him and has had dealings with him (and I have spoken to a hell of alot of people) will tell you how outrageous this whole thing is. Then the court case just confirmed the information that I had already gathered from many sources and from the SF yard itself.

I got intouch with my contact and went to SF the following day. TBH, I had a very baised idea about horse traders until I entered the yard of SF. The beds were NOT in the condition as reported, and I believe this one little thing got me to dig deeper and ask more questions. I do not reget a moment of it.

Oh, and the women of the family have no dealing what so ever with the horses. If PW knows as much as he says he does then he will confirm this. But being he just bangs on about [****] he'll probably tell you different.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why Dont you patty start answering questions that people keep asking instead of going the same crap you keep on repeating?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have answere questions but why the hell should I answer more when YOU LOT have not got a decent bone in your bodies talk to me in a civilized manner?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but if you bother to check my posts please quote me as you do everyone. where the hell i have been rude to you?

Im not rude to anyone.


I have asked and asked you the same questions and still not had an answer.
The same as alot of people have also asked you alot of questions but still not answered.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Why Dont you patty start answering questions that people keep asking instead of going the same crap you keep on repeating?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry but I see this comment as anything but civilized.

 

[dozzie]

[ QUOTE ]
It is easy enough to find out if there was permission to bury any animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldnt know how easy it is tbh. I am also not sure as to when the law changed requiring owners of horse to have permission to bury them. Some of the animals could have been buried before the law changed.

I agree that disposal was an issue but not sure whether it was against the law as it stands. So the law should be changed. Bring it into line with farm animals and there would be no haziness. All fallen stock has to be disposed of within 24 hours or face a fine unless there are mitigating circumstances. Stop any burials of horses.


Re the horse with severe diarrhoea

TBH I looked at it and thought bloody hell. How can anyone let that happen. Then I thought if I was presented with that what would I think and do. (If the horse had been ok previously) The first thing I would think was a flush of grass had upset the horses gut or it had a worm problem. If it had come on suddenly I would go for grass first. (If I had wormed the horse a few weeks previously I honestly dont think I would have expected a huge redworm burden in January. Knowing what i now know about encysted redworm eruption, I would now!) I would have cleaned the horse up, fed it hay, and monitored it. I would not have had an emergency call out. If it had continued I would have called the vet. I think my vet would have done blood tests to establish the cause. I honestly dont think my vet would have PTS that mare without blood tests.

My advice to anyone posting would be monitor it and discuss it with your vet, not the forum!

There is a post in vets at the moment about it.

RE the eye injury

TBH I cant actually work out from the picture what has happened and what is wrong so cant say what I would do. I cant work out whether the horse has an eye missing (Could be the blind mare they talked about) and an injury underneath or whether the eye is closed with conjunctivitis.
So if someone presented that picture on here my advice would be clean it up with salt water initially and then ask a vet!

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Patty, what exactly do you know about horses?


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If I told you I knew every detail of every horse I would be lying because I dont.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, you've misunderstood my question - which was in response to Mother Hen's assertion that these animals were low end stock, to which you sounded suprised at.

I think my question could have been better phrased to perhaps something like 'Do you know the difference between quality stock, and that which is not quality?' as clearly the equine stock being purchased by Mr Gray was inferior. Part of his defence was based on this fact.

 

[Natch]

Ok I'll bite tonight.

Patty. People started off civilly toward you. They then got extremely frustrated with your posting style, demanding a lot but never really coming up with the goods when questionned yourself. That is why there are comments that you find unvcivilised. Your tactics are fascinating if a little repetitive.

With regards to the original topic here, A man killed a dog. Straight out, without it going through any suffering before it died.

People have pointed out why the RSPCA cannot act. Quite frankly, yes I am appauled that he kicked the dog, but there are far greater instances of animal cruelty going on every day that I would rather the RSPCA prossecuted for. At least the dog did not suffer for any length of time.

The dispatch of rabbits via shotgun and rats with a shovel was discussed. You appear not to have a problem with rabbits being shot, but you seem to think there is a difference between that and a rat being hit with a shovel (something you may not be familliar with but frankly I have used this flipping method and the rodents die instantly). You by default of being involved in a food chain that sees thousands of animals killed every day, accept that killing animals that are not pets is ok. So you seem to be saying that it is cruel if the animal is a pet or if the dispatch method is not a shotgun.

I repeat what others have said: does the method really matter if the animal is killed instantly?

 

[SpruceRI]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Patty, what exactly do you know about horses?

[/ QUOTE ]



Most of the siezed animals were purchased in the couple of months leading up to the raid -

Mr Gray would buy and sell horses from the UK, Holland and Belgium.
He sold alot of colourds in Holland which he would purchase from the UK.

Some of the horses Mr Gray would buy may be in less than great condition but he would build them up and sell them on.

Mr Gray was not into the meat trade




[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying that Mr Gray is in the Riding Pony trade then?

Or is he a breeder?

He builds some of them up and sells them onto Holland etc, and some he allows to fail, fall ill, die and rot away?

This doesn't sound like a normal stud breeding operation to me, nor that of a horse dealer in the normal sense.

They normally clean the horses up, break and school them and sell on and hopefully make a tidy profit.

So do buyers in Holland want horses with matted coats and bones sticking out everywhere?

Sorry Patty if you think I'm being thick. But this still doesn't add up.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry, you've misunderstood my question - which was in response to Mother Hen's assertion that these animals were low end stock, to which you sounded suprised at.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not suprised at that MH said they were low end stock. But MH made a comment to which she has no evidence what so ever of.

MH said>>>I have no idea how he made any money, since most of the horses he appeared to purchase were very much at the lower end of the scale and there was no real sign of them being brought on as suitable riding horses, or having their condition improved to the point where they would attract a higher price.

How does she know that Mr Gray was not trying to improve their conditions?

How does she know that they had not improved since Mr Gray brought them?

How does she know that none of the animals were riding horses?

How does she know that none of them were riding horses when Mr Gray brought them?

That was the reason for my question.

 

[AmyMay]

F*ck this is boring now......

 

[horseygirl28]

[ QUOTE ]
Patty has nothing to back up her statements either yet you believe her!

[/ QUOTE ]

But Pattys statements do not need backing up because i know they are all true.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I'll bite tonight.

Patty. People started off civilly toward you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please!!! If their inital posts to me is their idea of being civil I'd hate to see their ideas of being uncivil.

[ QUOTE ]
They then got extremely frustrated with your posting style, demanding a lot but never really coming up with the goods when questionned yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

They got frustrated because I was defending JG. And I have answered questions and posted photos but 2 of those photos have been questioned as being ungenuine. I know they are.

They have questioned the photos but have not answered how the animal welfare officers, police officer and others, are supposed to have got in the pictures if they were not genuine.

[ QUOTE ]
That is why there are comments that you find unvcivilised. Your tactics are fascinating if a little repetitive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, they are uncivilised because I am defending JG.

[ QUOTE ]
With regards to the original topic here, A man killed a dog. Straight out, without it going through any suffering before it died.

People have pointed out why the RSPCA cannot act.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please!!! If the RSPCA wanted to act then they could have.

How long was it before the police got the RSPCA involved?


[ QUOTE ]
Quite frankly, yes I am appauled that he kicked the dog, but there are far greater instances of animal cruelty going on every day that I would rather the RSPCA prossecuted for. At least the dog did not suffer for any length of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but kicking a little dog to death is nothing but evil and cruel and no one should get away with such a despicable crime against a defencless animal. I dont know how his girlfriend kept her hands off him tbh.

[ QUOTE ]
The dispatch of rabbits via shotgun and rats with a shovel was discussed. You appear not to have a problem with rabbits being shot, but you seem to think there is a difference between that and a rat being hit with a shovel (something you may not be familliar with but frankly I have used this flipping method and the rodents die instantly).

[/ QUOTE ]


You have most certainly misunderstood me somehow. There is no way in this world would I ever believe it was okay to shoot rabbits just for the sake of it. And as for hitting rats with a shovel, I personally feel that is cruel but being I am petrified of them if I was put into a no way out possition I may well do the same but would probably feel bad after.

[ QUOTE ]
You by default of being involved in a food chain that sees thousands of animals killed every day, accept that killing animals that are not pets is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. However I dont disagree with animals being instantly killed for food. But I do disagree with live export where animals are crammed tight into lorries then driven 100's of miles. I only buy british meat.

[ QUOTE ]
So you seem to be saying that it is cruel if the animal is a pet or if the dispatch method is not a shotgun.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not sure how I have given you that idea. I dont agree with killing any animal just for the sake of killing.

I'll probably be pounced upon now but I dont agree with fox hunting either. That said, I dont know too much about it and my idea of the sport may be baised.


[ QUOTE ]
I repeat what others have said: does the method really matter if the animal is killed instantly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and no.

Yes, if the animal is killed for no good reason, and no, if the animal is killed for a good reason.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm so pleased to have brightened poor Patty's dreary night time hours!

[/ QUOTE ]

You sure did - thank you.

[ QUOTE ]
I used to work in Dover and it was not uncommon for illegal good to be smuggled in horseboxes and trailers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont disbelieve you. I would'nt think twice of grassing on a drug dealer/smuggler. They are scumbags who dont care for the fact that those drugs get into the hands of children.

[ QUOTE ]
The confiscated trailers were lined up underneath the viaduct and they and the horses went to auction after the trial.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good!!!


[ QUOTE ]
And talking of trials Mr Gray is in Folkestone Mags on the 27th and 28th of May. The case is being brought by Kent Trading Standards and relates to tranportation offences. One charge I believe relates to travelling horses in a lorry with inadequate partitions.

[/ QUOTE ]

First I've heard of it - I'll try to find out.


[ QUOTE ]
One has to ask why anybody travelling a horse with value, unlike a meat animal, would want to risk damaging it?

[/ QUOTE ]

All this about JG being a meat man is total rubbish. He told the court that he was not in the meat trade and the prosection seemed happy that he was not. Even the RSPCA know he's not into the meat business.

There is no law against it anyway so why would he have to deny it?

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]


So you're saying that Mr Gray is in the Riding Pony trade then?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO - he was a horse trader. That means he buys ALL types.

[ QUOTE ]
Or is he a breeder?

[/ QUOTE ]

No but sometimes brought mares that were already in foal. However, I do believe he had a stallion which he used on several mares in the past. But buying and selling was what he did.


[ QUOTE ]
He builds some of them up and sells them onto Holland etc, and some he allows to fail, fall ill, die and rot away?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only Holland - and no he never allowed any to fail and die. John Parker made a suggestion in general about some horse traders but Mr Gray believed that to be cruel. JG brought and sold horses of all breeds, shapes, and sizes. He did not parcifically aim to buy animals in less than great condition. He would sometimes buy horses to build up if he though they had a chance. But like I said, he did not parcifically aim to buy such horses.

[ QUOTE ]
This doesn't sound like a normal stud breeding operation to me, nor that of a horse dealer in the normal sense.

They normally clean the horses up, break and school them and sell on and hopefully make a tidy profit.

So do buyers in Holland want horses with matted coats and bones sticking out everywhere?

Sorry Patty if you think I'm being thick. But this still doesn't add up.

[/ QUOTE ]

JG did not sell horses with matted coats and bones sticking out. So if people in holland brought such animals then they would not have brought them from JG.

A vet needs to examine and issue health certifcates for every animal for export so therefore, JG could not possibly have taken such animals abroad.

How many of those animals that were published can be described in the way you have described them?

 

[Happy Horse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Patty has nothing to back up her statements either yet you believe her!

[/ QUOTE ]

But Pattys statements do not need backing up because i know they are all true.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you know this how exactly?

 

[Happy Horse]

[ QUOTE ]
The first thing I would think was a flush of grass had upset the horses gut or it had a worm problem. If it had come on suddenly I would go for grass first.

[/ QUOTE ]

In January!! You must have some pretty amazing grass where you come from!

 

[Happy Horse]

[ QUOTE ]
The beds were NOT in the condition as reported

[/ QUOTE ]

They quite clearly are in all the images with horses in shown in the video. You have shown a picture of an empty barn and a close up of some fresh straw. Like I say you have shown nothing to prove what you are saying - the video shows the evidence to be correct.

 

[Happy Horse]

[ QUOTE ]
I got intouch with my contact and went to SF the following day.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you went the day after the seizures so had no idea of the conditions the horses were actually being kept in as you did not see any horses in any of the barns during your visit? Is this correct?

 

[tania01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why Dont you patty start answering questions that people keep asking instead of going the same crap you keep on repeating?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have answere questions but why the hell should I answer more when YOU LOT have not got a decent bone in your bodies talk to me in a civilized manner?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but if you bother to check my posts please quote me as you do everyone. where the hell i have been rude to you?

Im not rude to anyone.


I have asked and asked you the same questions and still not had an answer.
The same as alot of people have also asked you alot of questions but still not answered.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Why Dont you patty start answering questions that people keep asking instead of going the same crap you keep on repeating?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry but I see this comment as anything but civilized.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry so your civilized then?as you yourself have used that before.

Why dont you stop beating around the bush and answer the questions that you keep avoiding?

 

[Stateside]

Maybe a MP in the making,
MP's never answer a question they are asked,

 

[brighteyes]

<font color="blue">In January!! You must have some pretty amazing grass where you come from! </font>

Global warming, don't y'know

^^I was thinking that, too.

It's <font color="blue">parcifically</font> green down there after Christmas.

This is a new word (we appear not to have learned) from our verbally unrestrained friend with all the details but none of the answers. I am genuinely full of admiration (in a strange sense) over how patty can continue with this hocus pocus, carrot-dangling and unsubstantiated counter-claiming.

Someone else mentioned about transparency. I bought my horse off a dealer. My lad was, by all accounts, a lice-ridden skeleton before his arrival here in England and she admitted having kept him 'rugged up' and out of sight during his transformation to the shiny, bright and genuine little horse I saw on that day and which he remains. Her others, on arrival from the same place, looked well-covered and were ready, after some schooling (which I also witnessed taking place) for almost immediate sale. The population there changed every few weeks and I don't think there were ever any deaths (other than one pts on the premises and removed that afternoon) due to a tragic accident in the field.

I went a few times on such short notice that a mass tidy-up would have been impossible and everywhere was always clean and smart with an air of professionalism. I bought my horse for well under £2k so we aren't talking specialist imports, just your middle range ponies and horses, cobs and the odd papered Connemara.

What I am getting at, if JG was a normal, active (as it appears) non-meat trade dealer, why has nobody heard of what happens to the horses and ponies he has had through his 'operation' or had any general behind the scenes experience? If he was a 'wholesaler' how many middle-men can such low-end animals stand before the price becomes simply unrealistic.

If it wasn't a cover for some illict other dealing, as has been suggested and might go some way towards maintaining/explaining some sort of profitability, how on earth did he ever make any money at all carrying on as it appears he did?

It is very odd and very sad when you remember all the unfortunate animals caught up in the operaton.

 

[Jiffy]

[ QUOTE ]
...

However, I know more about JG and his business.

...I got intouch with my contact and went to SF the following day. TBH, I had a very baised idea about horse traders until I entered the yard of SF. The beds were NOT in the condition as reported, and I believe this one little thing got me to dig deeper and ask more questions. I do not reget a moment of it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why were you allowed access to SF the day after the raid?

You must have been very perceptive to decide to dig deeper after just seeing that some of the beds might have been in different conditions, but should not make a generalised sweeping statement

[ QUOTE ]
...The beds were NOT in the condition as reported...

[/ QUOTE ]

Without evidence to support it, it means nothing and writing NOT in capital letters does nothing to reinforce the message.

What evidence was there to suggest that all the animals at SF were maintained in a well-run, well-kept, healthy environment?

 

[brighteyes]

Ha ha - the 'style' is very familiar isn't it! Answer a question with another question, chuck in some rhetoric and a bit of side-tracking, and you come away bamboozled -almost, but not this time...

 

[RantBucket]

I can’t for the life of me think why “Patty Wainthropp” thinks that JG and his family are such lovely people. JG was after all charged and found guilty of animal cruelty in 2006, he also was charged and found guilty of vandalising an RSPCA vehicle and found guilty of assault on PC Metcalfe, he also made a statement under oath saying his family were involved in the running of the family business, and later lied in court saying that he was solely responsible for the running of the business. We all saw on TV what sort of a person Jamie Gray junior is when he left the court after the verdict, and as for the female members of the family just look at their faces they are as hard as nails.