What was Jamie Grays' line of business?

[teddyt]

Patty, patty, where thou art thee patty? Tania, bexandspooky, myself (and probably others) all have perfectly straight forward questions that remain unanswered. Or are you avoiding the questions because you cant actually answer them? I will try and answer your questions, although i do not profess to being such an expert on the whole affair, as you are.

You wrote- I have to ask the following questions.....

How do you know that Mr Gray was not trying to improve their conditions?
ANSWER- If he was, he didnt try hard enough. Evidenced by the infected eyes, horses unable to stand, ill fitting rugs, dead bodies left lying around. That is hardly the actions of improving a horses welfare.

How do you know that they had not improved since Mr Gray brought them?
ANSWER- Many couldnt have been in a worse state.

How do you know that none of the animals were riding horses?
ANSWER- The odd one or two maybe. But many were unhandled, scared, too thin, etc to be ridden

How do you know that none of them were riding horses when Mr Gray brought them?
ANSWER- im sure some were. They unluckily ended up at SF due to other people not caring sufficiently for their welfare too.

Right, ive answered some of your questions. Please can you answer mine?

 

[dozzie]

[ QUOTE ]
So Mr Gray was short of money but brought horses by the lorry load to do what with them exactly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously to smuggle drugs with them!

 

[tania01]

[ QUOTE ]
Patty has stated she didnt know them and isnt related to them.

She has answered the question time and time again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry if i seem to of missed this as i dont seem to recall HER answering this.

If that is the case SHE may answer what i still keep asking how can she prove there lifestyle before?

 

[competitiondiva]

For anyone interested here is the link to the case, it makes very interesting reading. And yes JG did have a prior conviction for causing unnecessary suffering in 2006 and received a £3500 fine and was deprived of ownership of the animal and the conviction was upheld upon appeal.
http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/judgments_guidance/rspca-gray-others.pdf

 

[tania01]

[ QUOTE ]
Patty, patty, where thou art thee patty? Tania, bexandspooky, myself (and probably others) all have perfectly straight forward questions that remain unanswered. Or are you avoiding the questions because you cant actually answer them? I will try and answer your questions, although i do not profess to being such an expert on the whole affair, as you are.

You wrote- I have to ask the following questions.....

How do you know that Mr Gray was not trying to improve their conditions?
ANSWER- If he was, he didnt try hard enough. Evidenced by the infected eyes, horses unable to stand, ill fitting rugs, dead bodies left lying around. That is hardly the actions of improving a horses welfare.

How do you know that they had not improved since Mr Gray brought them?
ANSWER- Many couldnt have been in a worse state.

How do you know that none of the animals were riding horses?
ANSWER- The odd one or two maybe. But many were unhandled, scared, too thin, etc to be ridden

How do you know that none of them were riding horses when Mr Gray brought them?
ANSWER- im sure some were. They unluckily ended up at SF due to other people not caring sufficiently for their welfare too.

Right, ive answered some of your questions. Please can you answer mine?

[/ QUOTE ]

She will get the hump and beat about the bush as she does with alot of questions on here.

Teddyt do you expect an answer ?

She claims to know so much but for some unknown reason cant get the prove(there is a shock) not.

She has claimed for a long while to prove everyone wrong,yet we are all waiting a year on and she now seems not to get hold of anything.

If she knew anything it would of come out by now.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]


Why were you allowed access to SF the day after the raid?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know some pretty cool contacts.

[ QUOTE ]
You must have been very perceptive to decide to dig deeper after just seeing that some of the beds might have been in different conditions, but should not make a generalised sweeping statement

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand on heart I can honestly say that after seeing the condition of those beds I truely believe that this is what drove me dig and search deeper.

As many people I was aware that the RSPCA had been at SF on the 4th. My mother mentioned something about a fallen shetland and my reply to her was, no wonder the b&stard got beat.

[ QUOTE ]
...The beds were NOT in the condition as reported...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Without evidence to support it, it means nothing and writing NOT in capital letters does nothing to reinforce the message.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted photos to support it but those photos have been questioned.

I have said some pretty bold things on this forum and I'm very aware of the trouble I could be in if I told a single lie let alone post fake photographs. I would not lie anyway, and certainly would not lie for someone who committed the crimes JG has been accused of. NEVER!!!!!

[ QUOTE ]
What evidence was there to suggest that all the animals at SF were maintained in a well-run, well-kept, healthy environment?

[/ QUOTE ]

That evidence was provided to the court. And I saw it before the trial but I dont have that evidence with me, and I have never had it soley to myself. I dont know if I ever will ever get my hands on it, but if and when I do - I will most certainly post it.

 

[teddyt]

No tania, i am new to this discussion but have now realised that genuine questions are not answered. Maybe patty should read competitiondivas link and realise that much of what she says is totally contradicted. I am disgusted. A horse dragged and kicked into a trailer and later found dead tied up in it, yet patty sees JG has done nothing wrong! Patty is obviously as sick as the gray family.

 

[tania01]

[ QUOTE ]
No tania, i am new to this discussion but have now realised that genuine questions are not answered. Maybe patty should read competitiondivas link and realise that much of what she says is totally contradicted. I am disgusted. A horse dragged and kicked into a trailer and later found dead tied up in it, yet patty sees JG has done nothing wrong! Patty is obviously as sick as the gray family.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn agree with you more she is in such a world of her own she thinks the sun shines out of there backsides,they feed her so much rubbish she believes it.

 

[tania01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Why were you allowed access to SF the day after the raid?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know some pretty cool contacts.

[ QUOTE ]
You must have been very perceptive to decide to dig deeper after just seeing that some of the beds might have been in different conditions, but should not make a generalised sweeping statement

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand on heart I can honestly say that after seeing the condition of those beds I truely believe that this is what drove me dig and search deeper.

As many people I was aware that the RSPCA had been at SF on the 4th. My mother mentioned something about a fallen shetland and my reply to her was, no wonder the b&stard got beat.

[ QUOTE ]
...The beds were NOT in the condition as reported...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Without evidence to support it, it means nothing and writing NOT in capital letters does nothing to reinforce the message.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted photos to support it but those photos have been questioned.

I have said some pretty bold things on this forum and I'm very aware of the trouble I could be in if I told a single lie let alone post fake photographs. I would not lie anyway, and certainly would not lie for someone who committed the crimes JG has been accused of. NEVER!!!!!

[ QUOTE ]
What evidence was there to suggest that all the animals at SF were maintained in a well-run, well-kept, healthy environment?

[/ QUOTE ]

That evidence was provided to the court. And I saw it before the trial but I dont have that evidence with me, and I have never had it soley to myself. I dont know if I ever will ever get my hands on it, but if and when I do - I will most certainly post it.

[/ QUOTE ]

As said before and keep saying you can prove things yet funny how you cant get hold of actual FACTS.

 

[brighteyes]

I'd say this little excerpt alone from the case for the defence shows how crap a businessman he is to buy stock he is hopelessly unqualified to judge the quality of - and that he apparently did so on a regular basis to have suffered so many losses and have such problems keeping them alive!
<font color="blue">In essence, she asserts that the horses James Gray buys are often compromised from their poor husbandry, before he gets them. He may not have them long and may not be aware of particular problems. He worms them routinely on his account, but he could not be expected to know whether equines had salmonellosis or cyathostomiasis, infections or parasite burdens which can breakout very quickly and cause death within 48 hours, especially during adverse weather conditions. She makes the point that conclusions reached by the veterinary surgeons at Spindles Farm and at the refuges and charities on starvation due to a failure to provide enough food should only have been reached after a full clinical examination. She relies upon levels of urea:creatinine having to fall below 0.07 to indicate starvation.The more obvious explanations for the loss of weight are parasitism and enteric gut infection. </font>

Did he perhaps find a couple of world-beaters for the Whitakers once to offset the huge worming and veterinary costs he faced on a seemingly regular basis?

 

[brighthair]

I've just watched this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjYu-Wm5H8s

and I see malnourished horse, shitty beds, diarrhoea that is so severe it is caked on the tail, dead horses, skeletons

Patty - is that ok? Do you have horses, and would you keep them like that? Is it ok for me to?

I have had a malnourished horse on my yard before, and I have had one with diarrhoea. Both were seen promptly by the vet

Are you seriously deluded to think that the videos freely available to view show good living conditions for any animal?

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
Patty please could you answer me a question?...

You state that JG sold horses abroad to Holland and other countries and by your own admission he bought low end quality horses and ponies. What was he selling these animals abroad for if not meat???? If this is the case he clearly is in the meat market.

[/ QUOTE ]

By my own admission I have stated that he sometimes brought such animals if he thought they had a chance. He sold colourds in Holland. I doubt the colour of the animals would matter very much if he was taking them for meat. And like I have stated already - the meat trade is not against the law so why would there be a need to deny it?

[ QUOTE ]
This of course bares no relevance to the case, it's just that you have denied that he is in the meat trade so I wondered what he sold these horses for?

[/ QUOTE ]

When he did have such animals he would improve on their condition and sell them.

[ QUOTE ]
Also I just want to clarify one thing?

In your view then if JG is innocent of charges then can you guarantee that every horse, pony and donkey at SF which was sick, injured and/or underweight received the correct feeding, veterinary medication and care each needed? And this could be proved with veterinary records????

[/ QUOTE ]

After seeing the evidence and sitting through the case seeing the prosecutor trying to rip into Mr Gray, and seeing how that prosecutor failed, I absolutely without a shadow of a doubt believe so. But the red worm burden was not picked up on.

 

[dozzie]

Did you shoot the horse with severe diarrhoea without actually finding out what was wrong with it?

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
PATTY- Som more questions for you to answer please, seeing as you know so much about JG-

1) You are against animal cruelty

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in every way, shape and form.

[ QUOTE ]
and believe it should be punished.

[/ QUOTE ]

ABSOLUTELY!!! And severly punished too. Sadly the punishment for animals cruelty does not fit the crime.

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain, exactly, why you dont feel the horses in the videos of SF are suffering? I.e. why you think its acceptable for horses to have their eyes closed through infection, unable to stand, etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

If JG was not treating that eye then I believe he would be guilty of cruelty. But he was treating it and gave evidence. There was only 1 animal that was unable to stand and that went down on the 4th and Mr Gray took it in and tried to get it up then the RSPCA arrived.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Just why were there so many dead horses?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please read my other posts.

[ QUOTE ]
If JG treated poorly animals (as i expect you wil say in answer to Q1) then why were there so may dead and ill ones?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, read my other posts.

[ QUOTE ]
And why werent they disposed of when dead?

[/ QUOTE ]

Same as above.

[ QUOTE ]
3) If, as you say, JG was dealing in riding horses, why were so many of the horses either dead, half dead, seriously ill/emaciated, scared and unhandled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that so? Please show me all the half dead, seriously ill/emaciated animals?

[ QUOTE ]
If he had these horses to make money how exactly was he making money on horses in such a state?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. Maybe you should ask the RSPCA that question if it is true that all those animals were in the state the RSPCA has had the nation believe.

[ QUOTE ]
4) You said in a previous post that JG bought more lorry loads of horses, in response to someone who thought maybe he couldnt afford to keep the original ones. Why exactly did he do this when clearly the ones he already had were in a state?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you may have misunderstood that dialogue. I did not say he was buying lorry loads of horses - MH said it.

[ QUOTE ]
All in all my point is that you maintain JG is not guilty of animal cruelty and dealt in riding horses.

[/ QUOTE ]

JG was a horse trader - he traded in all sorts of horses.


[ QUOTE ]
Yet the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise, hence he was found guilty. Exactly why he had those horses is unclear, but you certainly havnt presented any evidence to back up your claims they were well cared for and produced for riding.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the overwhelming evidence which suggests what it is you believe.

And I didnt say they were all produced for riding. JG would sometimes buy riding horses in. They, like most of his animals were sold on again.

[ QUOTE ]
There is a sordid reason for his ownership of those horses and as i said earlier, no justification whatsoever for the state they were in.

[/ QUOTE ]

The state? 111?

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
Patty still hasn't been able to answer the question why a supposedly genuine caring dealer didn't bother to have any post mortems carried out when his horses began dying of unknown causes.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you LOOK you will see that I have replied to another poster who asked the SAME question.

[ QUOTE ]
He made no attempt to identify the cause and had no way of knowing whether it would spread to the other horses. He was happy to just let them rot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did he?

 

[jhoward]

PATTY

JG had a half decent colt that was the reason he caused such a fuss with the police. he didnt want it removed. HOWEVER having seent the said colt it was in an awful condition, now why would he do that to a valuble colt? it was removed from the same [****] pit as the others.

QUESTION 2

you still have not answered my original question on the other thread..

HOW DO YOU EXPLAINE THE DIFFERNT HORSES IN THE DIFFERENT PICTURES.

many many thanks for takign the time to reply to these TWO questions

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO I think nocturnal pratty is in the same bed as JG and is as disillusional as him if she thinks thoses horses were well looked after, perhaps she is on the drugs he was smuggling,

[/ QUOTE ]

1, JG did not smuggle drugs.

2, I am totally anti drugs and would love the pleasure of shopping a druggie to the police.

3, Gray headed men just dont do anything for me. So na, I would not be in bed with JG.

Think of something else you may just get something right - there's a first time for everything.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
*sighs* Patty, I shall ask my questions for the 3rd time - my post that was ignored in the other post is copied below in Purple writing.

If you want people to believe what you are saying, you are going to have to start answering some of this stuff

<font color="purple">Ok - I understand that you havent ever said all of the dead horses were dug up, but that wasn't actually the question I asked.

I shall break it down into a few more basic lines so that we are both clear what it is I am trying to establish

1 - What connection do you have with the greys?

2 - Why do you have such an interest in this case?

3 - For what purpose are you collating this information?

4 - Do you have evidence of the horses that were dug up?

5 - Why did the horses in the above photo's remain decomposing for such a long period of time (note - due to the level of decomposition, I am assuming the length of time was more than say 'a couple of weeks' which would more than compensate for any christmas period delays)

As you say that you have answered these things before and they were lost, perhaps you wouldn't mind answering them again?!

Many thanks and look forward to your clarification!
</font>

Your ignoring of questions like this make you difficult to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG, I cant believe I am being asked these exact same questions. LOOK for them or ask someone else who I have replied to concerning these questions.

I'm starting to think people are just trying to wind me up by repeating the same old questions.

 

[SpruceRI]

Most dealers will advertise their satisfied customers.

Where does JG advertise his?

 

[jhoward]

[ QUOTE ]
Most dealers will advertise their satisfied customers.

Where does JG advertise his?

[/ QUOTE ]

potters?

pedigree chum maybe?

NOOOOOOOOOO i no he sells to france, then all the french rescue sites sell back to the uk.. sounds plausable to me!

 

[patty19]

QR

Jhoward dont be two faced by PM'ing me pretending to be all sweet and innocent. Along with PW you have got to be the most ungenuine person here.

As much as I disagree with the majority of posters here I respect them for that fact that they are not slagging me off in public whilst sending me polite little PM's.

You showed me your true colours last year after I spoke with you on the phone.

Grow up and have some respect for you friends here.

 

[PalominoMare]

I too have always wondered what the "business" was here. The drug smuggling idea didnt sound too off the wall to me but would there not have been traces of drugs found in the dead/rescued horses? Unless of course they were hidden in the lorry. I'm not sure how he could have been a dealer - would we not have seen adverts for him or heard of him as a "dealer" and not needed to ask these questions? We've all even heard of the dodgy dealers and know to steer clear. I also dont see why they would of wanted his horses in Holland or Belgium - even for their colouring, why would these countries (who breed an awful lot each year themseleves) take the conformational risk to breed from these horses, especially when theres only a 50% chance, at most unless homozygous, of a coloured foal. And they surely wouldnt want these coloureds to ride?? I think the evidence shows that they werent performance horses.
I'm sure Samber and his progeny have left enough of a stamp to ensure good quality offspring over there - unless your meaning coloured as in palomino (or appys maybe?) but then we come face to face with the same genetic problems.

I'm sure patty some people could agree with you if you constructed you argument properly, stopped saying "why the HELL" and ****, proved your knowledge of dealings and breeding and horse care.

If anyone had seen "the 40 year old virgin" they will be aware of a scene where he chats up a girl in a bookstore. He doesnt know what to say to her so he asks he the question back i.e. Beth would say "are you single" and he would reply "are YOU single" (not a direct quote) but this thread is reminding me more and more of this movie!

I guess no body can say your not a martyr but sometimes enough is enough!

 

[SpruceRI]

That's exactly what my original post was asking?

Why would people in Holland and Belgium buy JG's horses when no doubt they can produce horses of a similar type in their own country at less cost?

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't be ridiculous - those barns had horses in them to get into those conditions and the barns with the horses in and the pony down by the trough are disgusting! It's funny he complains about not being offered a post mortem when he chose not to have any done himself when the horses started dying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it had lots of horses in and out of there. But they were not kept in there. The pony lying down near the trough went down that day 4th Jan. JG tried to get it up. That pony had been in a field. Before JG could move it again the RSPCA arrived. Those horses were put in that barn by the RSPCA. I know you wont believe this but it's the truth.

The RSPCA were very selective as to which animals and beds they allowed to be published.

Every trader loses some stock, but JG lost more than he normally did. Was he stupid for not having PM's carried out? I believe so, but then I'm not a trader. I dont think traders have PM's carried out when they loose animls. Surley if he though they were dying of anything but natural deaths he would have done something to save his stock. He wanted PM's carried out on the animals that were PTS because being that they were shot he knew they did not die of natural causes and wanted to know the reason why the vet thought they needed to be PTS.. However, he was denied this oppertunity. I think there were 2 horses that JG believed had probably died of worms even though he worms them before he takes them off the lorry.



[ QUOTE ]
If JG knew someone was going in for a look the next day he could well have put fresh beds down so you would try and convince people that is how they were.

[/ QUOTE ]


If that was the case then he would have also put a fresh bed in the barn which is on the video. Plus the vet who often went to SF would have seen them and Claire Ryder who used to pay unexpected visits to the farm would have seen them.



[ QUOTE ]
The pictures tell a different story and you can't deny that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not denying that. The RSPCA did a good job at telling a story that would be fitting to those photos. It's not true though.

[ QUOTE ]
Your pictures prove nothing at all and as you never actually saw any of the animals on the day they were seized you really know nothing at all about what the vets and Inspectors reported.

[/ QUOTE ]

By such reasoning, if that is the case then the judge had no business judging the case because he was not there either - nor had he even visited the farm after the raid.

Sounds stupid when you look at it like that does it not?


[ QUOTE ]
As has been said many times you haven't proved anything despite saying you have evidence that would do so.

Is there anyone in the case that you are not accusing of lying other than JG and his prosecution witnesses? It is a cover up to end all cover ups if your story is to be believed.

Still I am sure the sentence will prove the case

By the way other than spouting off on here are you doing anything else if you are so convinced he is innocent?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am indeed.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
Anything Patty?

Do you have me on user ignore perhaps?

I hope not as I believe that I have been nothing but civil and inquisitive - look forward to your reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont have anyone on ignore.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
PATTY

JG had a half decent colt that was the reason he caused such a fuss with the police.

[/ QUOTE ]

As per Jhoward you are wrong.



[ QUOTE ]
he didnt want it removed. HOWEVER having seent the said colt it was in an awful condition, now why would he do that to a valuble colt? it was removed from the same [****] pit as the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong again kiddo.

[ QUOTE ]
QUESTION 2

you still have not answered my original question on the other thread..

HOW DO YOU EXPLAINE THE DIFFERNT HORSES IN THE DIFFERENT PICTURES.

many many thanks for takign the time to reply to these TWO questions

[/ QUOTE ]

As I'm not quiet understanding your questions I would normally ask you to explain in a tad bit more detail, but as you think you are good at sarcasm I'd rather tell you to stick your questions else where and to come back once you've matured and grown a backbone.

 

[patty19]

QR

Horse and Hounds Maggy 14th May 2009.

"Rumours are that he sells horses for meat, but neither of the Uk's horse abbatoirs - Turners in Cheshire and Potters in Somerset- deals with him"

And neither does anyother abbatoirs because he was not in the meat trade.

 

[patty19]

[ QUOTE ]
Most dealers will advertise their satisfied customers.

Where does JG advertise his?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont know - dont care. But what are you suggesting by this?

 

[siennamum]

YAWN.....

What is the point of all this.

We all know you can't argue with fools like Patty and Dozzie. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.......

Not sure what satisfaction they get justifying JG or what the agenda is, but all this attention can't be good for them.

 

[Happy Horse]

[ QUOTE ]
YAWN.....

What is the point of all this.

We all know you can't argue with fools like Patty and Dozzie. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.......

Not sure what satisfaction they get justifying JG or what the agenda is, but all this attention can't be good for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know you are right. Patty has proved nothing at all and now the amazing evidence to prove her points is unlikely to appear, funny that! There is no point expecting any proven evidence to support her statements, she was not there at the raid yet the vets and inspectors were and have evidence to support their findings. I am just going to await the sentencing and be glad if the family are never allowed to have animals again. Of course if this evidence from Patty does appear I'd be very interested in seeing it.