When WOULD you hit a horse? Or would you?

Just arrived! 400 posts in and I have read them pretty much through.

Can I ask, do you mean hit with your hand, tap with a schooling whip, a wallop on the flank with a normal whip, lash with a lunging whip or what?

And do you mean ANY horse?

Three of ours would die if they were EVER smacked, so no. Raising any eyebrow, let alone a hand is plenty. It would be utterly counterproductive as their personalities are too sensitive to process any form of reprimand.

One only needs you to carry a whip to instantly 'shape' up and one we used to have got even less cooperative if smacked with a whip. I have one, though, who seems to need a reminder every now and again. He's a bit ADHD and no amount of training seems to implant 'forward' in his brain, except when he is being silly.

Now, I could retire him to the field and laminitis, shut him in to avoid the laminitis but use dietary control to keep him slim, or sell him on and let someone else deal with his inherent idleness. Or continue to administer a slap/threat of one now and again so he listens to and obeys my leg. He is irrepressible and no amount of repeated correction seems to work. Do I abandon an otherwise fab little pony with a sense of humour as not being of the right disposition to be ridden. For a few hours a week? I don't always carry a whip with him or use it when I do carry it, but a timely slap or sometimes just a hand off the rein serves to re-focus his mind onto the job.


In defence, from a violent horse, I think it would be reflex action, but you'd need to be carrying something handily weapon-like at the time.

As punishment, and in temper? The former yes, I have instantly reprimanded bad behaviour, the latter to my shame and ignorance also yes. In the past on a horse I didn't understand and who didn't understand me. I'd like to think I am a lot older and wiser now. *creeps away*
 
I never hit my horses :p
Instead, when they ignore my leg when riding I like to take my (hefty) legs off their sides completely, then swing them in for a giant thump.
I am sure they probably have bruises on their rib cage, but at least they don't get marked (as they can from whips).
I also have a Monty Roberts wip w o p - and can give them a good bashing with the knotty part of it.
If they don't respond to that, then I assume they are not suited to be riding horses, and sell them to Potters so another horse can benefit from the good home I offer instead.
I never really hit them though, if you mean with a whip.
S :D
 
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Shilasdair said:
I never hit my horses :p
Instead, when they ignore my leg when riding I like to take my (hefty) legs off their sides completely, then swing them in for a giant thump.
I am sure they probably have bruises on their rib cage, but at least they don't get marked (as they can from whips).
I also have a Monty Roberts wip w o p - and can give them a good bashing with the knotty part of it.
If they don't respond to that, then I assume they are not suited to be riding horses, and sell them to Potters so another horse can benefit from the good home I offer instead.
I never really hit them though, if you mean with a whip.
S :D
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:eek: *spectacles, testacles, wallet and watch*

I'll start a vigil for you now Shils... amen x..............:D
 
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Tinypony said:
With the stallion and the lady dragged over the door, personally I'd have done whatever it took to get her safe as quickly as possible. That might have involved some action with a broom or whatever was to hand, because in that situation, one more stamp could be the one that killed her. Let's face it though, most of the stuff people are talking about here that they consider justifies a "good smack" etc is nowhere near on that scale.
In some of the ridden situations, like needing a horse to move over because of the Legendary Lorry, most of us don't train our horses to a high level of responsiveness. So the horses can be slow to react, or maybe not as precise as we need them to be. That's when people give them a good whack to get them to respond faster. That's not a criticism, it is just the way most of us tend to ride, particularly when we're out hacking when we don't expect as much of our horses as we do in the arena. A well trained western horse, just for example, wouldn't need a whack to get it to move over quickly, it would be there almost before the rider had thought about what they wanted.
In the case of the stallion and the wheelchair lady then after she'd been rescued I guess the question would have been what happened next about the yard owner who allowed the situation to arise in the first place. You can't work on the assumption that everyone will always do the things they need to for safety around a deranged horse. The responsibility lies with whoever is in charge of the yard to make sure that dangerous situations are avoided. If you don't do that, then it can all go wrong in seconds. (But should the stallion be in the situation where it can cause that much damage in the first place? That's really the question for me. Nothing to do with whether or not a person would be justified in walloping it when things got out of hand).
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In reply- this was a home bred stallion- spoilt. It was just an arsey knob, who used his teeth/feet to get what it wanted 9/10. All the stables on that yard had metal barred top doors. This div of a horse was to have its door shut at all times, if she was on the yard or any clients. (all horses had these shut of a nightime (no idea why- yard policy). Someone had forgotten to shut it. The lady in the wheelchair WAS the YM......

This horse had turnout, and the very best of everything, just NO manners. If it were mine I would have a) had its nuts off if that did nothing to improve it it would have been PTS- nasty peice of work.
 
AndySpooner said:
Can we go back to a post on page 22 or thereabouts. Someone told a story about a stallion dragging someone out of a wheel chair and into its box where it trampled her.

I was first horrified by the tale, but as it expanded, I've come to a different view, notwithstanding I wouldn't like to see anyone hurt or killed.
But this stallion, known to be nasty. A stick kept near his door. The incident with this woman was apparently not an accident as someone had forgotten to close the top door. (was this Cptrayes old man, a serial door opener).

My point is that no wonder this stallion was nasty, kept in a box, top door shut people shouldn't keep any horse let alone a stallion in these conditions.

The responsibility for this horse and his conditions was the yard manager, who was the person who ended up being hurt.

Perhaps if the stallion had been treated more humainly in the first instance she would not have been hurt.

People very often are the architects of their own misfortune.
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INCORRECT- the top door was metal bars- hoss was perfectly capable of seeing what was going on. All the horses on this yard had these doors shut of a night (do not know why yard policy) This horse had turnout every single day, plus holidays out 24/7, plus ridden exercise.
In order not to get bitten when leading said arse, it was led with a short stick- kept by its stable, as said hoss had 110% more respect for you carrying a stick than without- at least it kept all four legs on the floor, instead of waving 2 at you.
Please tell me what is INHUMANE about that?
 
Shilasdair said:
I never hit my horses :p
Instead, when they ignore my leg when riding I like to take my (hefty) legs off their sides completely, then swing them in for a giant thump.
I am sure they probably have bruises on their rib cage, but at least they don't get marked (as they can from whips).
I also have a Monty Roberts wip w o p - and can give them a good bashing with the knotty part of it.
If they don't respond to that, then I assume they are not suited to be riding horses, and sell them to Potters so another horse can benefit from the good home I offer instead.
I never really hit them though, if you mean with a whip.
S :D
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Ha - you posted while I was compiling!

when they ignore my leg when riding I like to take my (hefty) legs off their sides completely, then swing them in for a giant thump. I did used to but one of my hips is dodgy now, possibly due to this.

also have a Monty Roberts wip w o p - and can give them a good bashing with the knotty part of it. Mine's a leadrope, clip removed, knot made - not ring legal and a bit gung-ho and amateur-looking during application. Effective though!

If they don't respond to that, then I assume they are not suited to be riding horses, and sell them to Potters so another horse can benefit from the good home I offer instead. I am too soft (or am I?) and continue to force ponio to lead a harrassed and clearly dreadful life at my home instead of serving him up on a plate (in France) or retiring him to blimpdom.
 
tallyho! said:
What I don't get is everyone arguing about dangerous stallions, kicking shetlands but there's tb's out there getting whipped across the finishing line and no-one bats an eyelid.
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That's rubbish though isn't it? :-))
Lots of people on here do more than bat eyelids about that. We've got people here who write letters, sign petitions and many boycott racing completely. Every time I'm invited to join a Grand National sweepstake I make my views known.
 
lexiedhb said:
In reply- this was a home bred stallion- spoilt. It was just an arsey knob, who used his teeth/feet to get what it wanted 9/10. All the stables on that yard had metal barred top doors. This div of a horse was to have its door shut at all times, if she was on the yard or any clients. (all horses had these shut of a nightime (no idea why- yard policy). Someone had forgotten to shut it. The lady in the wheelchair WAS the YM......

This horse had turnout, and the very best of everything, just NO manners. If it were mine I would have a) had its nuts off if that did nothing to improve it it would have been PTS- nasty peice of work.
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What would "the best of everything" be from the point of view of the horse I wonder? What works for one stallion, or any horse, isn't going to always be right for all.
They bred it, they created the situation it was in, they were responsible for the lady getting injured because they didn't take adequate measures to prevent it.
I agree, given the situation the horse was in at the time of this incident, I too would have it's nuts off, give it a chance and if it didn't work have it put to sleep. There's something seriously wrong mentally or physically or both for a horse to get like that, put the poor creature out of it's misery. Keep passers-by and handlers safe because next time someone could die. Who would breed from an animal like this anyway?
 
Tinypony said:
That's rubbish though isn't it? :-))
Lots of people on here do more than bat eyelids about that. We've got people here who write letters, sign petitions and many boycott racing completely. Every time I'm invited to join a Grand National sweepstake I make my views known.
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Racing has the best regulation for the whip in the equestrian world. Jockeys get banned for overuse of the whip, even if the horse shows absolutely no ill effects from its use (and the whip itself is specially designed and 100x more humane than your average thin riding crop), however I've seen horses marked at local unaff SJ competitions when they are hit out of pure anger and no one says anything.

Saying 'no one bats an eyelid' is total rubbish - stewards watch every single race, every single day of the year looking for overuse of the whip. I'm sure if they regulated local competitions as stringently as the regulate racing, a lot of people would find themselves unable to compete.

What I still don't get is that there are people who would NEVER hit a horse if it, for example, napped at a gate, but they'd happily give it a good thump in the ribs with their heel.

ETA: I was at a show today and a horse came in to jump that was being a nappy b*gger, it didn't want to leave the collecting ring and its friends. What I think it needed was a sharp smack and told to get on with it, but for 5 minutes the girl just dug into it with her boots instead. Eventually she gave it a wallop and it got on with it. I'm not sure what some of you lot would have done - just given up when the horse said "Nah, not today mate, I'll just stick with my mates"?
 
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Tinypony said:
What would "the best of everything" be from the point of view of the horse I wonder? What works for one stallion, or any horse, isn't going to always be right for all.
They bred it, they created the situation it was in, they were responsible for the lady getting injured because they didn't take adequate measures to prevent it.
I agree, given the situation the horse was in at the time of this incident, I too would have it's nuts off, give it a chance and if it didn't work have it put to sleep. There's something seriously wrong mentally or physically or both for a horse to get like that, put the poor creature out of it's misery. Keep passers-by and handlers safe because next time someone could die. Who would breed from an animal like this anyway?
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Well like I have said- he was not shut in 24/7, had turnout everyday, and holidays OUT 24/7, had every check known to man, back, teeth, brain etc. Was kept to the highest standard. I think he would have just liked to be chucked in a feild and had no human contact at all, but that was/is not feesible for 99% of the captive horse population.

Entirely agree with your last paragraph- sadly he was someones "baby" :rolleyes:
 
lexiedhb, I have no idea why your stallion behaved like he did.

A lot has to do with attitude and putting the time in with difficult horses rather than just managing them after a fashion.

I note that you refer to this horse as arse and gobshite, did you do this before the accident or has he never been a favourite of yours.
 
AndySpooner said:
lexiedhb, I have no idea why your stallion behaved like he did.

A lot has to do with attitude and putting the time in with difficult horses rather than just managing them after a fashion.

I note that you refer to this horse as arse and gobshite, did you do this before the accident or has he never been a favourite of yours.
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Not mine! If he had have been balls would have been the first thing to go, and failing any improvement, if mine he would have been PTS, as quite frankly he was nasty to be around.

Yes I refered to him as alot of "names" prior to and after the accident.

Do not get me wrong- he was manageable but you had to know him. Any new members of staff had to shadow someone who knew him before being allowed to deal with him alone. He had been given all the time in the world, in differing settings. Including several people attampting to gain his trust through nicey nicey approaches- I imagine they still bear the scars.

I think he was very unusual in his behaviour in that he could be sweetness and light one minute, then switch to satans horse the next- for no reason apparent to the human eye.

Please also understand this horse was not beaten- in fact the above mentioned scenario is the only time I ever actually hit this stallion.
 
cptrayes said:
So tell me what you would do if other people use the door and you cannot be absolutely certain to be there? ANYONE can do what you do if they have complete control over the door. I don't.
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Ok, I see your point with that. I know when we are leading corn back we can't keep the shutter door shut - we'd be spending half our time jumping on and off tractors. So we did the radical thing of putting up a fence and gate between the stables and the grain shed. Farmyards are probably equally as dangerous the shetlands as unsoaked sugarbeet, perhaps if she ever gets out onto the yard again I should run her over with a tractor......just so she realises it's a bad place to be.
 
AndySpooner said:
lexiedhb, I have no idea why your stallion behaved like he did.

A lot has to do with attitude and putting the time in with difficult horses rather than just managing them after a fashion.

I note that you refer to this horse as arse and gobshite, did you do this before the accident or has he never been a favourite of yours.
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Oh FGS Andy give it a rest with the patronising garbage please.

You DO NOT know the horse and you obviously have not read the posts properly, I doubt very very much that you have ever been in a position where you have ever had to handle a bolshy stallion, regardless of what you would like us to believe.

Time and again people have asked you what you would do in certain situations and time and time again you answer ambiguously or don't answer at all.

You seem to believe that you walk on water - sorry I am not convinced
 
That stallion sounds like a nasty one, seen a few before some were like yours and nice then nasty an some were just plain nasty, the need to cover or dominate everything just taking them over, wasnt nice for them or for us :(

I have given horses a smack with a whip to get them to listen tomy other aids and repeated it again if they didnt catch it the first time.

As for racing whips after being hit with one I think I would prefer this to a normal whip and having attended race meetings and watched for the beating that are so readily applied I have to say I was disappointed, I didnt see one good beating in a whole day ;)

Each to their own as they say :)
 
Amaranta, getting a bit touchy are we, lol. I have read quite a bit of your bulls**te and crap in the past.

I tend not to give a lot of advice, as you say I don't know these horses, nor do you.
 
AndySpooner said:
Amaranta, getting a bit touchy are we, lol. I have read quite a bit of your bulls**te and crap in the past.

I tend not to give a lot of advice, as you say I don't know these horses, nor do you.
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Whatever Andy :rolleyes:

No I don't know these horses either but have not offered an opinion purely because of that, does not seem to have stopped you though :rolleyes:
 
AndySpooner said:
Amaranta, getting a bit touchy are we, lol. I have read quite a bit of your bulls**te and crap in the past.

I tend not to give a lot of advice, as you say I don't know these horses, nor do you.
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I am genuinely interested in how you would respond to situations! You didn't really give me an answer to my last question, but I'll try again..

You're at a show. Your horse is fine at home leaving his friends, but he refuses to go forwards in the ring when it's your turn to jump, napping instead back to the collecting ring. What would you do?
 
Can anyone EVER say they know what they will do in a certain situation? I know there are things I have said I would never do, but I have. Even the most experienced person can act in a completely unexpected way. When I did a CPR course, the instructor said the first time she was in a real life CPR situation she forgot everything and paniced. She had taught CPR for years.

I do have quite a few friends who do parelli and natural horsemanship and are very anti hitting (though I think actually they use a lot of bullying as opposed to positive reinforcement). One did end up kicking his horse in the stomache when it ripped the shirt off his back. I am pretty sure he never though he would do that, but when push came to shove and he was in danger he did.
 
Do you think a rider's dig in the ribs given to a nappy horse is equivalent in its capacity to a double barrelled kick to the same from a fieldmate during a squabble? Most of the stuff delivered in earnest by squabbling horses that I have witnessed far outweighs the 'ticklings' most get from their owners.

Also, the compliant even-tempered horses of Andy Spooner's (experience) - would they be the bottom of the pecking order of real herds since he has no apparent trouble keeping them in their subordinate position in his relationship with them. If not, do they ever try and assert dominance over him and/or their equine companions?
 
Teagreen, this is a game no one wins, and like this thread the goal posts will change after every answer.

When that sort of thing happens to me, I ask myself, what am I doing differently?

It could be something as easy as your own excitement or nerves.

I certainly wouldn't wack him or kick the sides out of him. If he wouldn't go through into the ring is probably take him home and do a lot more with him, to build his confidence.

I am not really interested in winning competitions so going home would not be that big a deal to me.
 
aimeetb said:
Enfys, did you ever think this question would spark this response?? :p:D
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Nooooooo:D I am really quite startled by it, but it makes interesting reading nonetheless, I am also impressed that something this length hasn't plummetted into too much arguing and insults.

There are a couple of members who are usually quite vociferous and are conspicuous by their absence I am very surprised they haven't commented, thought I might have missed them, but have just checked and they haven't.
 
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One of the best people I have ever seen with horses was a horse driver. He has competed to a very high standard and broken in horses of many different types, ages and breeds.I have never heard him riase his VOICE let alone his hand to a horse but they all left him with beautiful manners.My riding instructor, done the badminton thing etc. also says violence is NEVER acceptable and that many horses learn to be aggressive because they have been treated aggressively.
 
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