Where next for the Bog pony?

[ycbm]

You remind me of me at your age Michen. You're about to turn your life upside down, going up the ranks to Advanced BE is not in your mind, neither is winning a 100. Quite honestly, if I was you, I'd fling him round the 100 SJ any old how and then go and have an absolute blast on the cross country. Life's for living!
.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

You remind me of me at your age Michen. You're about to turn your life upside down, going up the ranks to Advanced BE is not in your mind, neither is winning a 100. Quite honestly, if I was you, I'd fling him round the 100 SJ any old how and then go and have an absolute blast on the cross country. Life's for living!
.

I toe the line between this and my post above, tbh. Sort of a fight between my inner perfectionist dressage rider and YOLO. ?

 

[Michen]

Yep the disuniting can be a pain. Disuniting on the left lead on landing was how I realised there was a soft tissue issue. He’d do it regardless of anything even over a cross ole. Literally couldn’t get a clean left landing.

Now he does it when he’s not jumping in a relaxed way, legs go everywhere. He will land clean left when I want right. Then change but not change behind.

I never know whether to bring him back or not if he disunites. I find it easier to carry on rather than kill the canter most of the time.

 

[Michen]

Also genuine Q guys. Why is it better to go jump a disco before a BE or eventing 100 SJ. My experience of pure SJ is that it’s much harder and bigger? I have never been BS though so please correct it so.

Would an eventing SJ step up not be a “softer” way to do it? Nice figure of 8 and all that. What am I missing that says we are ok to, or should, go jump a meaty BS.

I’d have thought the softer the step up to a height the better?

Sorry if I’m being thick I’m just not grasping why there’s a “go out an do a disco” idea but not go out and do an easier eventing 100 ?? is it do with the XC?

 

[Tiddlypom]

SJ fences knock down, XC fences do not. That's the difference.

No one wants you two to have a horse fall.

You're a cracking combination, but I agree with the other posters to get more reliable SJ in at the higher level than going in at BE100.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

3 coaches including her U18s coach, Dag Albert who has tonnes of experience, told Katie she’d be fine at BE100 but Dolly would definitely have struggled with that height pure SJ. She jumped a pretty meaty SaJ course last year at the BE event at Kelsall but it was still a lot easier than a pure showjumping round at a metre. So I don’t really understand that advice tbh.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Dolly was extremely polite and rideable and careful though so perhaps that advice was appropriate for them but less so if control is an issue - or a potential issue. X

 

[Michen]

Yeah that’s kinda what I’m thinking AE.

FWIW I’m going to I think do the 90 next weekend and focus on a good warm up with an easy controlled SJ. I came out of Tweseldown feeling like we could have jumped a 110 there and then. I did not feel like that yesteday. If I can feel like that again next week then I’ll be happy.

So a 90 run, a camp where I’ll train over a 100 course and then reassess and hope I have enough time to get a 100 in this season with ground etc. I can aim for Calmsden 100 end of July if we have had rain. If not then I guess it wasn’t meant to be.

I more than anyone want to have a good last run and whilst I’d dearly love to tick the 100 box I’d rather it be in style ?

 

[Michen]

This is what I noticed too and is linked to my earlier comment about needing more work between the fences.

I actually think a majority of your weaknesses come from the canter quality. There are times when I'd like to see him more on his hind end with more of a bounce to his stride with hind end engagement. A bit more air time, almost. Sometimes he seems a bit flat, strung out, or on his forehand a bit. If you work on canter quality this will improve all 3 phases for you.

I'd work on transitions within the gait, and find your maximums re extension and collection. Work on adjustability and make sure you have a good half halt installed. This is extremely valuable. You need that button that says, come back a bit, but with energy and engagement. If you get a canter with more jump, balance, and better quality, this also might encourage him to be more interested in a flying change on course.

Going to a jump in cross canter or even the technically wrong lead just doesn't feel as good to me and you're jump will be even better if you're truly in balance.

My horse (he's only jumping 80, but still) is very sensitive so if you've got your sh*t together on take off and over the fence he will always land on the correct lead. If you're off balance he will land on whatever lead that balance, or lack thereof dictates. If you fudge up the air time and landing he might land disunited, but it's rare (he's done it when the rider slightly twisted their body over the fence). If your horse is also incredibly sensitive to this balance, use it to your advantage. Tune in and ride to get those leads. If the canter quality is good, I can just shift my weight a tad for a flying change at the corner. This is much neater than a cross canter or approach on the "wrong" lead, IMO, even though my horse is very balanced and proficient at counter canter work (dressage).

By the time I got to 100 I would want my canter and leads more polished. I know that this isn't a style class (my horse jumps primarily style classes, he's no speed demon ?) but I think you can take your course from functional and clear to the next level. It should also give you more confidence because the round will feel smoother and more engaged.

It's fine, IMO, if this slows down your time a bit at first. You can add the speed back later once you get the technical stuff down.

So while I do think it's useful to take some SJ lessons, you might actually find some value in dressage or pole lessons. I really think that if you master control of the canter and enhance canter quality, things will fall into place more. I know people don't find this dressage based work interesting, but it pays off and really takes your course to the next level and makes what is ok or good, great. This might be the time to do this. You might be able to get away with it up to 90, but at 100 you may need to refine things a bit more to truly be successful. My training is primarily dressage and I'm rather dressage focused so I'm a bit biased, but I see it with a lot of show jumpers around here. Their flat work is quite frankly, terrifying (yours is not), but they make it around a course. However, if they put more effort into their dressage work they'd be more consistent and even better.

That’s helpful thanks! as above we do get legs everywhere when he’s not relaxed and is firing around. His flatwork canter is SO much improved. My neighbour is lizzie Murray snd she’s been whipping us in to shape which finally came true with the sub 30 stressage despite a break in the canter.

But I think I don’t spend the time warming up to get the proper sj canter and I go in there and do very little in the ring. So I think I just need to be more efficient.

 

[TPO]

So I don’t really understand that advice tbh.

I think that links in to a lot of the posts on the "what are BE doing wrong" thread/tangent.

It used to be the normal ethos, at least with the majority, that you had to be working successfully at the level above which you were competing at home. So the advice given by experienced and successful HHOers to jump BS at a higher level just seems like stating the obvious?

IMO it's not doing this that is leading to what's also discussed on that thread with the "have a go gang" who aren't properly prepared and have scary* rounds. I know my bar of success is low at "I didn't die" but even I known that's not the way to approach XC.

* scary as in people that do know can see how worrying it is to have a horse going BE with, at best, a passenger, flat paces and jumping from whatever point they want. "Ignorance is bliss" seems to be a big thing given how many "good" videos and photos are posted on SM that I find, quite frankly, worrying to terrifying.

Just to clarify I am not referring to Michen as ignorant nor terrifying. There's been good advice given thats been heeded and I guess that was the point of posting a thread asking for opinions.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

That’s helpful thanks! as above we do get legs everywhere when he’s not relaxed and is firing around. His flatwork canter is SO much improved. My neighbour is lizzie Murray snd she’s been whipping us in to shape which finally came true with the sub 30 stressage despite a break in the canter.

But I think I don’t spend the time warming up to get the proper sj canter and I go in there and do very little in the ring. So I think I just need to be more efficient.

Re the warm up. Jumping confidence for me is a work in progress and always will have to be something I need to actively manage. Jumping in competitiom is easiest, followed by lessons/clinics. Warm ups are much harder and jumping at home is currently off the agenda but I'm working on it!

I nailed a good warm up routine with Amber but I realised when I started competing Lottie that warm up nerves were back after such a long gap in competing after Amber retired. So much so, that for Chatsworth AE, there was an ambulance hold for a fall in the warm up which was all played out in front of me, the ground was slippery and it was our first SJ on grass, the warm up was much busier because of the ambulance delay. So everything came toether to intensify the nerves and I literally jumped 1 x-pole before going in to jump the biggest and most technical track to date on her. Which was ridiculous. So I decided to get a grip and deal with it properly - as I had with Amber.

Your RI can advise on what length/type of warm up would suit Bog but the way in which I get my head straight for warming up has been some combination of the following:

- Treat it as part of the round. To the extent of actually imagining commentary on my warm up! Which tricks my brain into getting a bit more fired up
- Imagining my RI is in there with me and warming me up. I follow the instructions 'she' gives me
- Reminding myself the day before and on the day what a warm up is for to make it feel more important . And during each section of the warm up think about the purpose of it -
Eg walk/trot to loosen muscles, get the heart rate up a bit, faster work to get the blood in the right places, getting horse on the aids, practicing adjustability by moving the canter on then collecting etc. Using the jump muscles and getting her focused and listening on the approach to fences by beginning to jump. Sticking with each phase till it feels good. I dont jump much but I will do a xpole, small upright, to height upright, small oxer, to height oxer. JUst once each of they feel good. More if they don't.
- Most imprtantly have it as non-neogotiable in my mind. I told myself if I can't warm her up then I cant compete her so bloody get a grip and do it properly or don't enter any more events.

That has all helped me so hope some of it makes sense for you x

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I think that links in to a lot of the posts on the "what are BE doing wrong" thread/tangent.

It used to be the normal ethos, at least with the majority, that you had to be working successfully at the level above which you were competing at home. So the advice given by experienced and successful HHOers to jump BS at a higher level just seems like stating the obvious?
.

It's not the level above though. There is no comparison between a full up BS Disco course and a BE100 SJ course. Plus I thought the advice was schooling above what you compete at. So schooling over 110 courses to jump 100 in competition. So when Katie was preparing for Kelsall she went to Somerford and jumped a course of 110 fences with a couple of uprights at 115. But they were not the width of a disco course and were laid out in a kinder line. That set her up perfectly well. There is no way she could have competed BS at that level though.

 

[TPO]

It's not the level above though. There is no comparison between a full up BS Disco course and a BE100 SJ course. Plus I thought the advice was schooling above what you compete at. So schooling over 110 courses to jump 100 in competition.

Nope, school at a higher level than the one you compete at. Always been thr mantra.

So yes, training over higher fences to compete at lower.

I literally can't see any negatives to it? You get your eye in, train the horse, build confidence then go out an compete at 100 when it will look smaller and feel easier. No brainer?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Nope, school at a higher level than the one you compete at. Always been thr mantra.

So yes, training over higher fences to compete at lower.

I literally can't see any negatives to it? Younger your eye in, train the horse, build confidence then go out an compete at 100 when it will look smaller and feel easier. No brainer?

Yes that is what I am saying. People are telling Michen to COMPETE at disco. Not to school at 110 which of course she should do.

I actually think Michen should ask her trainers really. They know her and the horse and are not in the business of killing off their cliebts. So are best placed to advise on whether/when to step up.

 

[Michen]

I’m annoyed at myself tbh. I went to a camp with a well known eventing coach a few weeks ago and she said absolutely go jump around a 100 there are Zero concerns and if anything he should be better. Then the two runs since that camp I’ve somehow allowed the SJ to go wild.

Arghhhh

Ha- cross posted AE- as above. That was a trainer who had never met me until the other week. My other trainer also says take him 100. His semi pro past rider says the same.

Anyway I’m not going to until I have got the 90 SJ back to my happy place.

 

[TPO]

Yes that is what I am saying. People are telling Michen to COMPETE at disco. Not to school at 110 which of course she should do.

I actually think Michen should ask her trainers really. They know her and the horse and are not in the business of killing off their cliebts. So are best placed to advise on whether/when to step up.

Ergo school that level and use BS as training so that she is set up for success at BE100.

Agree but she asked on here and has been given good advice by experienced and knowledgeable people (not me btw).

She's an intelligent adult who has already revised and formulated a plan for going forward. Where's the drama? ??‍

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I’m annoyed at myself tbh. I went to a camp with a well known eventing coach a few weeks ago and she said absolutely go jump around a 100 there are Zero concerns and if anything he should be better. Then the two runs since that camp I’ve somehow allowed the SJ to go wild.

Arghhhh

Ha- cross posted AE- as above. That was a trainer who had never met me until the other week. My other trainer also says take him 100. His semi pro past rider says the same.

Anyway I’m not going to until I have got the 90 SJ back to my happy place.

I'd listen to them over anyone online so relax. You'll get back there. That's not to say ignore the advice - it's been a really interesting discussion! But in the end I think you need to take whatever advice makes sense to you from here, discuss with your trainers and not let yourself feel frustrated or disheartened. Eyes on the ground are far more valid inevitably than opinions - however well informed - from video clips.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Re SJ warm up:

It depends on the horse a bit but I also put my riding instructor in my head and have a sort of narrative going.

I walk for a bit, trot, and then "test" my canter. Can I ride forward and back? Is he adjustable and on the aids? Then go for the fences. Usually the X first, the vertical than the oxer and possibly over the vertical once again. Usually 2 to 3 jumps her fence.

I actually have to inject a bit of adrenaline into my horse for jumping and fire him up a bit. He doesn't really look so fired up in comparison to many others ? but he has to be bouncy and on the aids. Add a little rider confidence and he's all set. I have to make sure that he's pumped up and with me.

If I only popped over something(s) once or twice he might not be in the right headspace. However, mine is the same age but new to jumping and not the confident type in general. I'd still recommend a pre-flight check of all buttons though. Get in the groove.

 

[Michen]

Thanks CC this is a real kick up the arse. I barely even canter in the warm up unless long gap after dressage . It consists of Bog realising it’s SJ, firing up, me going ok no point winding him up ( that’s my excuse btw) and going in.

Wtf am I thinking ?‍

 

[Michen]

Re the warm up. Jumping confidence for me is a work in progress and always will have to be something I need to actively manage. Jumping in competitiom is easiest, followed by lessons/clinics. Warm ups are much harder and jumping at home is currently off the agenda but I'm working on it!

I nailed a good warm up routine with Amber but I realised when I started competing Lottie that warm up nerves were back after such a long gap in competing after Amber retired. So much so, that for Chatsworth AE, there was an ambulance hold for a fall in the warm up which was all played out in front of me, the ground was slippery and it was our first SJ on grass, the warm up was much busier because of the ambulance delay. So everything came toether to intensify the nerves and I literally jumped 1 x-pole before going in to jump the biggest and most technical track to date on her. Which was ridiculous. So I decided to get a grip and deal with it properly - as I had with Amber.

Your RI can advise on what length/type of warm up would suit Bog but the way in which I get my head straight for warming up has been some combination of the following:

- Treat it as part of the round. To the extent of actually imagining commentary on my warm up! Which tricks my brain into getting a bit more fired up
- Imagining my RI is in there with me and warming me up. I follow the instructions 'she' gives me
- Reminding myself the day before and on the day what a warm up is for to make it feel more important . And during each section of the warm up think about the purpose of it -
Eg walk/trot to loosen muscles, get the heart rate up a bit, faster work to get the blood in the right places, getting horse on the aids, practicing adjustability by moving the canter on then collecting etc. Using the jump muscles and getting her focused and listening on the approach to fences by beginning to jump. Sticking with each phase till it feels good. I dont jump much but I will do a xpole, small upright, to height upright, small oxer, to height oxer. JUst once each of they feel good. More if they don't.
- Most imprtantly have it as non-neogotiable in my mind. I told myself if I can't warm her up then I cant compete her so bloody get a grip and do it properly or don't enter any more events.

That has all helped me so hope some of it makes sense for you x

Yes! Thank you!! Xx

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Yep the disuniting can be a pain. Disuniting on the left lead on landing was how I realised there was a soft tissue issue. He’d do it regardless of anything even over a cross ole. Literally couldn’t get a clean left landing.

Now he does it when he’s not jumping in a relaxed way, legs go everywhere. He will land clean left when I want right. Then change but not change behind.

I never know whether to bring him back or not if he disunites. I find it easier to carry on rather than kill the canter most of the time.

It's easier to change the front legs than it is the hind legs re flying changes. Some jumpers have a "late change" as in front then back, but generally no one cares in the jumping ring. They usually only change in front when the canter quality isn't there, they aren't coming through/on the hind end, the canter is too flat/no air time, or there is a weakness in a hind leg perhaps. So if you're going into a corner and want a change, a half halt is more than likely required. Some just need a half halt, and for the rider to shift balance into the new direction.

It can sort of throw the rider off coming back to trot and establishing the canter again. Especially if the horse is flat, running, or on the forehand. The transition will be more difficult and take longer, therefore some may opt to stay disunited, but it doesn't truly solve the problem. You should be hitting that reset button at home and not making it a habit.

If it's a matter of tension then you've got to get to the root of that and it often comes back to the horse listening and being with the rider for the over enthusiastic type. Lots of exercises to deal with this. It is a bit more difficult to conquer when you add in the competition environment because that often produces tension in itself. Time, homework, and mileage should help with that.



I don't want to sound harsh but if I, as a stranger, saw a horse out at 100 consistently jumping disunited (but this is not you, just an example) I'd think the horse is either unsound or has some holes in its training that should've been sorted out by the time the horse competed at this level. I know a lot of riders don't care as long as the horse jumps and it isn't totally catastrophic, but I would. However, I've been totally ruined by dressage and being a perfectionist. Reality is probably somewhere in the middle of perfection and YOLO ?

Edited to add: Dressage has been a terrible discipline for me. It only enhances my obsessive and perfectionist traits ?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Thanks CC this is a real kick up the arse. I barely even canter in the warm up unless long gap after dressage . It consists of Bog realising it’s SJ, firing up, me going ok no point winding him up ( that’s my excuse btw) and going in.

Wtf am I thinking ?‍

I have many "wtf am I thinking" or not thinking moments ? or I realize, hmm I wasn't exactly doing anything productive there. If you can recognize and learn, then that's important.

My horse isn't the type to get wound up, but I know that some get more and more wound up with every fence. That's difficult, and would just require more training. I don't know that Boggle is quite on that level though. He might actually be a bit less fired up if he feels more prepared, hard to say, you'll have to see. Advice is sometimes difficult when you don't know the horse or rider, and haven't ridden the horse either.

 

[Michen]

Thank you everyone for your comments and the time you’ve spent writing stuff out. Really appreciate them all! I am like an over tired child at the moment and on the edge of sobbing pretty much all the time so thanks for being gentle ?

Just out hacking Bear (before he gets sold next week ?) and have emailed to drop down and will hopefully post a controlled pretty SJ next weekend.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

We may all be over obsessive worry warts over nothing and your next 90 will be perfection ?

 

[Michen]

It's easier to change the front legs than it is the hind legs re flying changes. Some jumpers have a "late change" as in front then back, but generally no one cares in the jumping ring. They usually only change in front when the canter quality isn't there, they aren't coming through/on the hind end, the canter is too flat/no air time, or there is a weakness in a hind leg perhaps. So if you're going into a corner and want a change, a half halt is more than likely required. Some just need a half halt, and for the rider to shift balance into the new direction.

It can sort of throw the rider off coming back to trot and establishing the canter again. Especially if the horse is flat, running, or on the forehand. The transition will be more difficult and take longer, therefore some may opt to stay disunited, but it doesn't truly solve the problem. You should be hitting that reset button at home and not making it a habit.

If it's a matter of tension then you've got to get to the root of that and it often comes back to the horse listening and being with the rider for the over enthusiastic type. Lots of exercises to deal with this. It is a bit more difficult to conquer when you add in the competition environment because that often produces tension in itself. Time, homework, and mileage should help with that.



I don't want to sound harsh but if I, as a stranger, saw a horse out at 100 consistently jumping disunited (but this is not you, just an example) I'd think the horse is either unsound or has some holes in its training that should've been sorted out by the time the horse competed at this level. I know a lot of riders don't care as long as the horse jumps and it isn't totally catastrophic, but I would. However, I've been totally ruined by dressage and being a perfectionist. Reality is probably somewhere in the middle of perfection and YOLO ?

Yeah I get that! He’d generally disunite once per round over a bad jump but when excitable and speedy it’s legs everywhere.

He’s definitely sound (gets quarterly vet checked for his hocks). He’s 100% post flexion too which is cool for an arthritic on paper crock.

 

[Michen]

We may all be over obsessive worry warts over nothing and your next 90 will be perfection ?

A 25 dressage and a win would be nice eh ?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Yeah I get that! He’d generally disunite once per round over a bad jump but when excitable and speedy it’s legs everywhere.

He’s definitely sound (gets quarterly vet checked for his hocks). He’s 100% post flexion too which is cool for an arthritic on paper crock.

Yeah, for him I don't question soundness because I know how careful and particular you are. I'm the same way. I'm rather obsessive, tbh, in case no one could tell ?

 

[J&S]

A while ago I was watching my friend's daughter warming up for pure SJ. she had her coach with her who was a well known local show jumper, very well thought of and particularly stylish to watch. This lady had the pony/small horse cantering 12 metre circles in a corner for a considerable amount of time before they even went near a jump.
Equally , at PC, my step daughter was taught to really work on the canter before jumping. If Bog is as fit as he looks i don't think you will be tiring him out by working him quite hard before the SJ phase!
Good luck for the next outing.

 

[Aperchristmas]

Agree with a lot of the comments here, just wanted to add that as you will be trying something new (a different warm up) it may not go perfectly the first time, so don't beat yourself up or think that it's a bad idea in the first place. You might need a few gos before you've found the right balance for you both.

 

[Michen]

I'll give it a good go. I have created a bit of an issue maybe as he is very, very fit. He's been super busy for a good month or two as I've been packing stuff in. This means he's a very happy civilised Boggle at home in between though when he's just hacking!

Bear and Bog are doing a "pairs" event at Offchurch early July Bog can jump the 70 SJ , Bear will do dressage then we XC together.

I will use this weekend and that in the SJ warm up to give it a good run.

Oh my goodness am I looking forward to doing a 70 SJ