Withers

[ycbm]

I have to say though, since this thread I seem to be noticing it everywhere.. anyone recognise this horse in the Burghley trot up?

The light perhaps is unflattering to be fair

View attachment 121841

Well if that's not the light, then I wouldn’t consider a back that lacking in muscle as fit to put a saddle on.

 

[ihatework]

I was watching closely too!
And my generalised conclusion (without singling out specific horses) was that the more pronounced profiles were generally on the horses that have campaigned at 5* and presented by the world class riders.
The ones that have done fewer 5* and with less experienced competitors have a rounder profile in general and had noticeable fat reserves.

Now my conclusion (which I’m not saying is right btw) from this and my own experience with a young rider coming up the ranks and having serious conversations with world class riders and vets on body score/horse weight/fitness is the following:

- A horse gets truely 5* fit after running a number of 5*
- You can run a horse that is plenty fit enough but if it’s carrying too much weight then you will struggle to be competitive on the xc time
- therefore those very top horses you are seeing stripped very lean (for competitive purposes)
- I’d be cautious of directly comparing the muscle development of those really stripped lean horses against slightly fatter less fit ones.

However, I am very aware the demands of 5* on a horses body is extreme. There is no doubt in my mind it compromises the horse significantly, physically. That is a discussion for another day ….

 

[LEC]

I agree with IHW. Also I think there was a reason that Priceless, Glenburnie and all the greats from long format all finished the sport at 14/15. Though they also started younger as Murphy won Burghley at 8/9? That would be impossible now and a ‘young’ horse at 5* is now 10.

There are many things I disagree about Oliver but his horses are always fit.

 

[sbloom]

I wish it was easier to find photos of top event horses in the 70s and 80s without saddles on, when they were even fitter competing in the old long format.

 

[LEC]

I have just gone back and looked at a friends 5* horse. It was a turn up and get round horse rather than a competitive one. At Pau it looks like a hunter and at Badminton 6 months later it looks lot leaner. I know they have individual saddles for that horse fitted by a master saddler and not a ‘brand’, top class physio etc. He was their pride and joy as they make their money from DIY livery not eventing, so only eventer two horses including him. I also know they didn’t drill that horse as he hated being drilled in the dr as found it very hard so all the time it was doing stuff he enjoyed as he was a great jumper with a lot of heart. Interesting at Pau you would for the muscle in back but there is a change for Badminton. He would have been same level of fitness but he looks harder in his body.

 

[Burnttoast]

I wish it was easier to find photos of top event horses in the 70s and 80s without saddles on, when they were even fitter competing in the old long format.

I said above that the 5* horses I worked with briefly in the early 90s (can't remember when long format ended but I'm sure it was after that) did not look like the horse just posted even after returning from international competition (I have photos but they aren't great and weren't taken in a public setting so I won't post them here). I suspect it's possible to get away with this (and with some training methods, riding btv much of the time, maybe too much arena time) because short format is less of a physical challenge.

 

[LEC]

I have been back through my old books. Ric is 21 in one of those old photos and Pippas are not 3 day fit

 

[LEC]

Some are not 3 day fit and Ric is 21 in one of those photos

 

[DabDab]

I have no evidence, but honestly I remember eventers having that shape for as long as I have been watching eventing

 

[sbloom]

I don't think there's been a sudden drop in "standards", but I do think we should be improving what we do with horses, and we're not imo. We're breeding horses to be more mobile, we're moving away from TB and Irish lines which did have the fifth leg and a little more substance in many cases, but we're not training them to stabilise them and to have the best possible posture for the discipline/level.

I do have to wonder, seeing "super across the loins" on a picture of a horse with likely weakness around the sacrum etc, what standards we've been judging competition horses against. And again "jumping bump" on another picture which has been shown to be no such thing but a compromise of function in the HQ relating to SI, sacrum and tuber sacrale (hoping my anatomy is correct there!).

What DOES this photo say to you?

https://www.facebook.com/EncompassEquineSolutions/posts/pfbid02XkiquwTpFDEYmKkdxU3TgCLXya8WxnbfBeMDVAhyLA33ngGFA7Qg7PLsEPqx62VBl

 

[DabDab]

Leafing through very old books have found a picture of the horse Jenny Camp from the 1930s with the eventer shape going on. Also a picture of Joe Aleshire from the same era who was a jumper rather than an eventer, but again is very lean behind the wither.
Both were Olympic horses.

Eta: adding a picture of the Joe Aleshire images as there are conformation notes below it written by the author in the 1940s, so may be of interest.

 

[DiNozzo]

Another picture of Ballaghmor Class. Not sure when it was taken, but posted 9 weeks ago on Oli's instagram. He is a big horse and does seem to go better (xc, anyway), lighter.

 

[ycbm]

I just found this. This is a flat racer who raced shortly before I bought him at the auction where he is pictured. OK he's not a jumper, but he's not carrying an ounce of fat and he's not showing any of the muscle atrophy in the photos of older eventers. He was 3.

 

[sbloom]

To be fair he has his near fore lifted which changes the profile behind the wither dramatically. I see a very bony scapula, typical racehorse neck and lots of tension, would need better photos to see what the muscling is really like. Race saddles cause a lot of issues.

 

[ycbm]

To be fair he has his near fore lifted which changes the profile behind the wither dramatically. I see a very bony scapula, typical racehorse neck and lots of tension, would need better photos to see what the muscling is really like. Race saddles cause a lot of issues.

I'm not putting him up s any sort of model of perfection SB but whether due to his youth or lack of jumping he did not have back muscle atrophy.

Race saddle damage? Too right. The lump half way along his spine was where the half tree ended

 

[sbloom]

I'm not putting him up s any sort of model of perfection SB but whether due to his youth or lack of jumping he did not have back muscle atrophy.

Race saddle damage? Too right. The lump half way along his spine was where the half tree ended

Absolutely, he has nothing that isn't normalmfrom racing, but the photo just can't prove how his muscles looked behind the shoulder. Race saddles are just so grim, it makes me terribly sad every time I see any horse, but especially the wide cobs, backed in these.

 

[ycbm]

Talking of how top competition horses are managed, I was really surprised to see this on the new European Champion.

I returned a VIP pad because it didn't cover the entire bearing surface of my saddle, like this. Surely this creates a line of pressure where the pad ends and the saddle padding carries on? I wouldn't expect to see that accepted by the head groom of a top level horse.

 

[sbloom]

Can't really make out what's going on from the photo. Manufacturers of some of the impact pads say it's okay if it's not under the whole saddle area, I have no idea why they would fall outside of the normal "rules" but it would be interesting to use pressure testing. I would say however that pressure testing is probably dropping down my list of "important factors" - if the horse develops better posture, way of going and muscling with a new set up then that's more important, ultimately.

 

[RachelFerd]

...so... can anyone actually point at a fit 5* horse with a muscle structure that they actually think is perfect? Or are we aiming for something that simply isn't possible? I think the latter feels more likely based on this conversation. I agree with IHW - 5* eventing is tough on horses bodies in a similar way to ironman triathlon being tough on human bodies..very fit horses and humans simply have to be lean. I suspect that various posters on here are just tilting at windmills discussing an ideal that is not possible in reality.

 

[teapot]

For a withers point of view

Stuart Tinney's Jeepster at the Sydney Olympics trot up, some 23 years ago for anyone wanting to feel a little old 2STUART-TROT.jpg


Or Ringwood Sky Boy in 2014

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-t...30acaa8896a7d5df53d818ce24dfa213&searchtype=0



I find Ballaghmor Class fascinating to look at! He's here at the second trot from head on https://www.nicomorgan.com/-/galler...d-ballaghmor-class-at-the-trot-up-defender-bu

 

[TPO]

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Possibly one of the accounts referred to in OP. This is them comparing like for like with fit horses of the same type/build

 

[ycbm]

That right hand horse doesn't look lean to me.
.

 

[little_critter]

That right hand horse doesn't look lean to me.
.

I was going to say the same but it’s tricky to tell without seeing the whole horse.

 

[TheMule]

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Possibly one of the accounts referred to in OP. This is them comparing like for like with fit horses of the same type/build

The pictures simply aren’t taken at similar enough points in time (in terms of movement stance etc) to make reasonable comparisons IMO

 

[TPO]

I don't have a dog in the fight but think it's an interesting topic

If you click on the link there are more photos than just the cover shot.

Regardless of it the right is lean or not surely the atrophy on the left is apparent?

 

[LEC]

One of them has what they would call atrophy if the front leg wasn’t on the forward motion. Just makes me think even more that they don’t really know what they are looking for and are slightly clueless.

Also some of the ‘lean’ are not what I would call lean.

As always we can find photos to fit the narrative we want to present.

 

[RachelFerd]

One of them has what they would call atrophy if the front leg wasn’t on the forward motion. Just makes me think even more that they don’t really know what they are looking for and are slightly clueless.

Also some of the ‘lean’ are not what I would call lean.

As always we can find photos to fit the narrative we want to present.

particularly if those photos are so heavily cropped as to remove all important context about how the horse is standing/moving

all these accounts have so many alarm bells attached to them

 

[TPO]

particularly if those photos are so heavily cropped as to remove all important context about how the horse is standing/moving

all these accounts have so many alarm bells attached to them

Well the first "atrophy" photo the horse is stationary, and regardless of what it looks like elsewhere, the atrophy is visible. That's without comparing it to anything else.

The rebuttals have all been that it's comparing apples and oranges. Why can't apples be appraised on their own?

 

[quizzie]

Is anyone aware of any studies either from post mortem or biopsy that would identify if what is being termed "atrophy" actually IS atrophy, which has quite a distinct microscopic appearance.?

 

[Katieg123]

Its like comparing these two athletes (one marathon runner and one sprinter). Very different types of fitness. One could not do what the other does.