Withers

[DabDab]

It's one of those subjects that it's hard not to have mixed feelings on. Top level eventers, when stood with the poll above the withers pretty much all have the classic dip in front, dip behind wither musculature (dip behind not generally going as far as to be a hollow). It does just seem to be the musculature that develops on a horse doing that kind of work. Does that mean it is good for the horse in the whole? No idea. Or do horses muscled up that way suffer from a certain level of muscle soreness most of the time? Are the musculatures that dressage horses build up better for the horse overall? Again, I have no idea, and I've never seen it discussed much.

I think it's worthy of discussion, but hard to have those kinds of discussion without social media excitability in this day and age.

 

[RachelFerd]

The key red flag with some of these accounts is that they're made up of at least 20% of the "guru" looking beautifully posed for Instagram, hair done, riding around with their long blonde hair with no hat on for the insta likes. You are being sold a lifestyle and worldview, not knowledge and learning.

And I've never said people need to ride at 5* for me to heed their advice - but they need to be qualified and/or have evidence of supporting people with the process of riding and training high level competition horses if they don't actively do it themselves.

 

[TPO]

It's one of those subjects that it's hard not to have mixed feelings on. Top level eventers, when stood with the poll above the withers pretty much all have the classic dip in front, dip behind wither musculature (dip behind not generally going as far as to be a hollow). It does just seem to be the musculature that develops on a horse doing that kind of work. Does that mean it is good for the horse in the whole? No idea. Or horses muscled up that way suffer from a certain level of muscle soreness most of the time? Are the musculatures that dressage horses build up better for the horse overall? Again, I have no idea, and I've never seen it discussed much.

I think it's worthy of discussion, but hard to have those kinds of discussion without social media excitability in this day and age.

Yes, this. Thank you!!!

 

[Squeak]

I’d definitely classify a qualified physio or a groom as ‘walking the walk’ and having plenty of credibility.

And yes absolutely I want advice on correct posture and musculature. I don’t think I’m arrogant . In fact I am a sucker for a plausible poster or account because I believe I don’t know enough about any given area and am always wanting to learn more. My problem if that I have found it hard to separate ‘Susie-eventing’ accounts from people who do know what they are talking about.

I personally know someone with a big online presence who is followed and supported by a lot of people, including apparently credible people. He/she is - as far as I’m concerned - a total fraud! No qualifications, no lived experience as a rider, trainer, groom or coach. But it took some digging to find that out after taking their advice previously.

I might be wrong but I think @SEL understood your post to mean that you would only take the opinion of people riding at 5* level rather than you meaning walk the walk in their specific field such as a physio who has a well muscled horse themself and so dotheir clients and their clients include eventers who are competing at the level that is being debated.

 

[TGM]

What I don't understand is that the top UK event riders are on the World Class Programme, which, amongst other things, gives them access to
"equine sport science and medicine practitioners, such as farriers, saddlers, vets and equine physiotherapists". Surely these professionals who are more highly qualified than Mrs Social Media Bodyworker, would be picking up on any potential problems?

 

[quizzie]

Yes I do.

I also agree with the list of muscles you've given in your next post. None of those have insertion or origin points near the "dips". I'm rusty on those too which is why I pulled my "bible" out to check.

We agree that no two horses are the same but why are numerous [eventing] horses showing the same dips/atrophies/lack of development/ whatever opposing sides wish to refer to?

I don't think that there is a pattern there can be denied?

The difference would seem to be that you believe its all about the muscle, whereas I believe that it is far more about underlying skeletal shape and lack of fat in a fit horse

 

[sbloom]

They are filling paddocks with horses whose owners are feeding to remove "poverty lines" which are nothing of the sort.
.

And yet many poverty lines are ALL about posture, the hamstrings in tension to try and control the pelvis and hind legs. It's just were so used to seeing it

That looks like muscle wastage to me which is normally caused by the saddle being to narrow in the front, its not natural to have hollows either side of the wither.

Lack of muscle either side of the wither can be down to all sorts of issues, saddle fit being one of them, too narrow a saddle one subset of that.

Quite the contrary - for the few years prior to this photo he was ridden in a much too wide saddle that sat on his withers by the person who owned him before I took him on.

This was about 6 months later, and with a fitted saddle - better but I'd still say he's not 'full' around the withers. I don't that conformationally he ever would look well muscled there due to the size of his withers, but I may be wrong, who knows. He monumentally broke before I could really find out.

Too wide a saddle, if not mildly too wide and fitted to compensate properly (usually needing more than just a front shim to balance), will cause muscle loss just as much as too narrow a saddle.

 

[TPO]

I might be wrong but I think @SEL understood your post to mean that you would only take the opinion of people riding at 5* level rather than you meaning walk the walk in their specific field such as a physio who has a well muscled horse themself and so dotheir clients and their clients include eventers who are competing at the level that is being debated.

Have to admit that's how I took it.

I am totally on board with AEs reply. It's not just on SM.

I mean you can't know what you don't know. Most people I'd assume are willing to say "I don't know, please explain" but a lot already know it all.

Even know here, where there's even less of a window than SM, how do you know? We all form our own opinions of posters and their knowledge/ability based on what they write. I know I cringe when posters I think are complete numpties dole out incorrect/dangerous advice and the recipient knows no better. There's a thread running just now that proves that.

Equally sometimes the "nobodies" can be right. There was a horse on Bere doing odd things and "nobodies" raised concerns several times only to be shouted down because they were do nothing nobodies, and this was back in the day of cliques. Ultimately the nobodies were right, horse had quite severe KS iirc and needed surgical intervention.

 

[Squeak]

What I don't understand is that the top UK event riders are on the World Class Programme, which, amongst other things, gives them access to
"equine sport science and medicine practitioners, such as farriers, saddlers, vets and equine physiotherapists". Surely these professionals who are more highly qualified than Mrs Social Media Bodyworker, would be picking up on any potential problems?

This is my thoughts too. All the thousands they spend on their horses and competing and their livelihoods depend on their horses performances it seems a bit odd that there would be something fundamentally wrong with the top event horses that hasn't been found an issue and used to improve.

 

[TPO]

The difference would seem to be that you believe its all about the muscle, whereas I believe that it is far more about underlying skeletal shape and lack of fat in a fit horse

I don't at all. As I've said I do have an understanding of the other components, for want of a better word.

I don't understand your explanation so asked you to expand so that I could. I still don't and that probably on me, but aside from the already understood fascia and skeleton I don't know what you mean.

Muscle isn't fat, so muscles will be leaner and more prominent on a fit horse. Yes conformation plays a part. There is no "between" muscles or insertion points on these areas so what is causing the hollows/lack of even muscle development?

I'm not saying eventers and their teams are doing anything wrong or that there is cruelty etc. I can see a pattern now that LEC has pointed it out and I'm wondering f ehat is causing it. Read Dabdabs post because she's worded it better than me.

There has to be a reason so I'm just trying to find out why.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I might be wrong but I think @SEL understood your post to mean that you would only take the opinion of people riding at 5* level rather than you meaning walk the walk in their specific field such as a physio who has a well muscled horse themself and so dotheir clients and their clients include eventers who are competing at the level that is being debated.

No that’s absolutely not what I meant. Apologies if that’s how it came across.

Lottie has a dip behind the wither. I spent forever trying to build up more muscle there when this was pointed out to me. Always despairing that however hard I worked her ‘correctly’ it never filled in. Then 2 vets, a saddle fitter and my physio said that dip would never fill in without her being fat. (I kept asking about it). That she is well muscled and looks great. So I’ve stopped worrying about it now.

 

[DabDab]

I've always assumed that the dip in front of the wither is galloping related, because showjumpers don't tend to get it but racehorses do, but I've always found it curious/interesting that the dressage aspect of even training doesn't counteract that effect more.

 

[quizzie]

I don't at all. As I've said I do have an understanding of the other components, for want of a better word.

I don't understand your explanation so asked you to expand so that I could. I still don't and that probably on me, but aside from the already understood fascia and skeleton I don't know what you mean.

Muscle isn't fat, so muscles will be leaner and more prominent on a fit horse. Yes conformation plays a part. There is no "between" muscles or insertion points on these areas so what is causing the hollows/lack of even muscle development?

I'm not saying eventers and their teams are doing anything wrong or that there is cruelty etc. I can see a pattern now that LEC has pointed it out and I'm wondering f ehat is causing it. Read Dabdabs post because she's worded it better than me.

There has to be a reason so I'm just trying to find out why.

Ok, I'll try to explain my view point again..

The problem : dips/hollows in very fit horses, where most ridden horses don't have them?

The reason the dips are present : View A : muscle atrophy/poor muscle development
or View B : Skeletal shape and lack of fat, ie normal.....there isn't a problem.

I subscribe to view B....I could show you photos of my horse....3 day event fit and on the light side.....and now semi-retired and a normal weight... He has a big long sharks fin of a wither, the slight dips are still there...masked by a layer of fat to the casual glance, but his underlying structure/posture hasn't changed.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

You may have had the right saddle but the damage was probably done before you had him, if you think horse is backed say at 4 and from day 1 the saddle doesn't fit at 8 years old that horse has never really had the chance to get that muscle, and then by that time it's too late and then it never develops properly.

From the compensatory injuries we found with vet investigation you are most likely absolutely right. I find it all very interesting! He was competing at Advanced Medium as a 5yo at 18.3hh, and you could see how much that, and subsequent poor management between that and me getting him, affected his musculature all over his body. It would be an interesting piece of data to look at how these horses at 5* identified as having muscle wastage during their period of top performance, goes on to affect their long term soundness into 'old age'

 

[DabDab]

Ok, I'll try to explain my view point again..

The problem : dips/hollows in very fit horses, where most ridden horses don't have them?

The reason the dips are present : View A : muscle atrophy/poor muscle development
or View B : Skeletal shape and lack of fat, ie normal.....there isn't a problem.

I subscribe to view B....

But that's very black and white and neither view is really how muscle systems (as opposed to individual muscles) work...?
Muscle build up for health, capability, comfort etc can't just be about whether or not there is fat on them or whether or not the muscles are suffering from atrophy or whatever. Back to the human comparison, the musculature of a gymnast is different to that of a sprinter, and different to that of a long distance runner. None of them are likely to have any fat on them or to be suffering from atrophy, and the distinctiveness of the different musculatures can't be explained away by skeletal differences either. So is any muscle build up better than another? Well it depends on what you think is important surely. Sprinters certainly suffer a lot of muscle tears and cramps and soft tissue issues in their legs, where long distance runners seem more prone to joint issues long-term...

 

[quizzie]

But that's very black and white and neither view is really how muscle systems (as opposed to individual muscles) work...?
Muscle build up for health, capability, comfort etc can't just be about whether or not there is fat on them or whether or not the muscles are suffering from atrophy or whatever. Back to the human comparison, the musculature of a gymnast is different to that of a sprinter, and different to that of a long distance runner. None of them are likely to have any fat on them or to be suffering from atrophy, and the distinctiveness of the different musculatures can't be explained away by skeletal differences either. So is any muscle build up better than another? Well it depends on what you think is important surely. Sprinters certainly suffer a lot of muscle tears and cramps and soft tissue issues in their legs, where long distance runners seem more prone to joint issues long-term...

Well…..if we are heading into human athletes….then you’ve not only got individual shapes/sizes/heights etc but the genetic proportions of fast and slow twitch muscle fibres too….as are found in horses?!….and looking at the world athletics the last few days……!

 

[sbloom]

Hypotrophy ("atrophy") in one place is usually balanced by hypertrophy (overly developed usually tight muscles) elsewhere, so often global locomotor muscles engaged as postural. The horse's body is far from simple for sure but we do know they don't have the choice to become "top athletes" with the high level of care than demands - I see the vets, physios etc as much about keeping the horse's going, keeping them pain free and therefore sound (to whatever degree), than deciding whether management systems for them are optimal, species appropriate.

I don't think we're at a point of a meeting of minds, not yet, but I firmly believe that we need to do better, and we may be forced to, not that far down the line.

I've always assumed that the dip in front of the wither is galloping related, because showjumpers don't tend to get it but racehorses do, but I've always found it curious/interesting that the dressage aspect of even training doesn't counteract that effect more.

Racehorses are massively downhill in the way they move, they have to be, they tend to run one handed too of course, so there is significant compensation in their bodies. It's not to do with galloping per se, but what is required to be truly fast over and over. I used to think that about eventing dressage but now we see similar patterns in top level pure dressage horses too.

 

[ihatework]

What I don't understand is that the top UK event riders are on the World Class Programme, which, amongst other things, gives them access to
"equine sport science and medicine practitioners, such as farriers, saddlers, vets and equine physiotherapists". Surely these professionals who are more highly qualified than Mrs Social Media Bodyworker, would be picking up on any potential problems?

They are!!
My lowly young horse (nowhere near 5*) went to world class and literally had physios/saddle fitters/vet/farrier at the top of their games evaluate him together!

I’m not poo-pooing bodyworkers btw, there is very much a place for the good ones. The problem is there are plenty who have a high opinion of themselves but are actually pretty clueless in elite horse management.

In my experience it’s often the people who shout the least who have the most experience - because when you have broad and good experience you realise that horses throw so many curveballs and variations that it’s difficult to be black & white.

Someone posted a comment up thread about having never seen a 5* horse without a decent dip in front of wither.

I could show you one but I won’t because a) it’s not my place and b) it’s not some shining example of an ultimately trained horse, ironically the horse had quite a few training faults!

 

[ihatework]

Ok, I'll try to explain my view point again..

The problem : dips/hollows in very fit horses, where most ridden horses don't have them?

The reason the dips are present : View A : muscle atrophy/poor muscle development
or View B : Skeletal shape and lack of fat, ie normal.....there isn't a problem.

I subscribe to view B....I could show you photos of my horse....3 day event fit and on the light side.....and now semi-retired and a normal weight... He has a big long sharks fin of a wither, the slight dips are still there...masked by a layer of fat to the casual glance, but his underlying structure/posture hasn't changed.

I subscribe to B for the most part, but not exclusively as I would say you could probably quite easily (and do) get A and B in combination at 5*/elite level Eventing. There are plenty of super event horses that struggle in the dressage - some because of the rider, some despite.

 

[ycbm]

Try this…..
View attachment 121083

7 is the nuchal ligament,and 10 are the nuchal laminae attaching it down to the cervical spine between the axis (2) and the vertical process of the 3rd thoracic vertebra(8).

In a horse with a more prominant wither( made up of the spinous/vertical processes of the vertebrae) the nuchal ligament is inevitably going to be bound down to a greater or lesser extent in front of the wither…..you can see how short the vertical process of the 1st thoracic vertebra(4) is in comparison.

There are a multitude of major and minor muscles that then clad this area, but the shape of the skeleton to which they attach will dictate the shape we see externally which is then modified by fatness/fitness/muscle tension/positioning etc etc.

I've been talking about a dip from the base of the wither to almost point 7 on the neck, not the obvious drop that is going to be present simply because the horse has longer DSPs at the wither itself. I thought everyone else was too, because as you point out it makes no sense to worry about the nuchal ligament being lower immediately in front of the wither. The drop that is worrying is caused by the horse's neck at C7 sinking too low in a weak or wrongly muscled shoulder cradle.

 

[ycbm]

And yet many poverty lines are ALL about posture, the hamstrings in tension to try and control the pelvis and hind legs. It's just were so used to seeing it

But most fit horses without posture issues will have definition in the muscles of the hind end, it's just that we're not used to seeing it.

 

[Pinkvboots]

From the compensatory injuries we found with vet investigation you are most likely absolutely right. I find it all very interesting! He was competing at Advanced Medium as a 5yo at 18.3hh, and you could see how much that, and subsequent poor management between that and me getting him, affected his musculature all over his body. It would be an interesting piece of data to look at how these horses at 5* identified as having muscle wastage during their period of top performance, goes on to affect their long term soundness into 'old age'

Thats such a shame he had no chance really did he

 

[LEC]

What I don't understand is that the top UK event riders are on the World Class Programme, which, amongst other things, gives them access to
"equine sport science and medicine practitioners, such as farriers, saddlers, vets and equine physiotherapists". Surely these professionals who are more highly qualified than Mrs Social Media Bodyworker, would be picking up on any potential problems?

I know most of the 5* horses also get full works when they have done a 3 day. Scanned and x rayed to check them over. A tiny injury can then be picked up quickly and dealt with. They will have physio etc at least once a week to check them over and the GB team travels with physios and vets to events. Plus these are true horsemen in charge both dickie and Chris bartle. Both have a huge background in average horses as well as exceptional.

 

[stangs]

On the topic:

View this content on Instagram

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I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[j1ffy]

On the topic:

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View this content on Instagram

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

An excellent comparison of fit vs unfit horses

 

[Burnttoast]

An excellent comparison of fit vs unfit horses

Wish I could find my photos of the endurance horse I crewed for. He had one of the biggest withers I've ever seen but he never had all those dips all over the place even the day after 100 miles over Exmoor.

 

[LEC]

An excellent comparison of fit vs unfit horses

It’s just so stupid…. It literally makes my eyes roll out of my head. At least it makes them look stupid, not using good comparisons.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I have to say though, since this thread I seem to be noticing it everywhere.. anyone recognise this horse in the Burghley trot up?

The light perhaps is unflattering to be fair

 

[Michen]

I have to say though, since this thread I seem to be noticing it everywhere.. anyone recognise this horse in the Burghley trot up?

The light perhaps is unflattering to be fair

View attachment 121841

I am noticing now too and never really had!

 

[sbloom]

Feet...body...everything really. It's not the light. These horses can function because they're masters of masking and coping, and we've bred them to cope, but this isn't truly functional. Those feet are shocking and a big part of what's going on here.