Woman attacked by dogs and killed in Liverpool

[SAujla]

Horrific story from the US about a 5 month old and 2 year old mauled to death by family pit bull.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...led-death-two-pet-pit-bulls.html?fr=operanews

I've no idea what the realistic answer is to the problems with dogs attacking. Its been mentioned here that there are been numerous threads about this. The world seems to becoming more dangerous by the week, in all aspects

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Has anyone seen (probably one of many) the ban the bully petition yet? https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618243

Given how many pitbull lookalikes I’ve seen in my time, I doubt a petition or even legislation would help: it would drive it underground but not eliminate breeding/selling of dogs. Was it @P3LH who said he’d seen a convention of bully types being mated in the back of vans at some park this year?

 

[stangs]

TBH, stangs, I am not sold on the idea that people buy an XL bully because they think it is a "gentle giant".

Various interpretations of the "gentle giant" appeal (specifically focused on caring pet owners - like the lady in the Mirror article whose dog did not have cropped ears):

1) They like the contrast between tough-looking exterior and softy on the inside (curiously a common trope in romance fiction)
2) They like the idea of a dog who’s a gentle giant/nanny dog/etc with them but tough with outsiders, especially if they live in an area they don't feel safe it
3) They genuinely believe these dogs couldn’t hurt a fly, thanks to what they’ve read or their own experiences with the breed/type
4) Of the “gentle giant” breeds, the XL bully is the most easily accessible and affordable (and the most trendy).

 

[skinnydipper]

...

 

[Boulty]

I work in veterinary & so see a lot of different breeds of dog at their worst (as whatever we do to try & make it otherwise a hospital is a scary place). Our most feared patient by most of the staff is an ancient grumpy chihuahua (I think he's hilarious but I've had nearly 10 years of his shenanigans to deal with). I'd say the most dangerous dogs in terms of people getting bitten generally aren't the ones that are lunging & snarling as they're giving out pretty clear signals about what their intentions are & you'd have to be pretty idiotic not to back off a bit & think about your options. The ones I most often see people get bitten by are the ones who are uncomfortable with the situation & may in fact be utterly terrified but are only showing fairly subtle, quiet signals eg whale eye, slightly tense posture / stiff, jerky movement, yawning, lip licking until they reach a point they can't cope with & BANG! Dog bite happens. Of course none of these are sustained attacks although serious injury can still sometimes result. The worst dog bites I've seen in practice were a random crossbreed, a Boxer & a Retriever, (seen a few bad Westie ones as well) none of which would have been on anyone's "dangerous" list. I'd say the biggest things that help prevent people getting bitten are people learning to read dogs & doing everything they can to keep anxious animals below threshold & being sensible about the situations they're putting themselves in.

Not sure what the answer is for the wider world as no idea how you'd fund or police ensuring that everyone who wanted to own a dog had a good basic understanding of dog behaviour & body language & the specific traits & extra requirements of their breed. Even if you made attending training classes mandatory to try & give everyone some basic tools & advice (& hopefully identify those who need serious, behaviourist level intervention) who would check this & how?

Yes I know that whilst any dog has the potential to injure or kill a baby or small child (I would never trust my Cavi with a small child without constant direct supervision as he can be quite sharp & has an abnormally high prey drive / chase instinct that could lead to bad things in the wrong circumstances not that any dog should be fully trusted unsupervised around children anyway) the list of dogs who have the power to easily do this to a healthy adult is a lot smaller I don't think BSL in its current form is the answer. If there was a way of having competency tests in order to own any breed that a panel of experts concluded was powerful enough to pose a serious risk to life if not handled correctly that might be a step in the right direction to try & restrict the ownership of certain breeds to those who are more likely to be competent to deal with them but just can't see any such scheme being enforceable as we can't even keep on top of stopping the breeding of dogs who've been banned for decades & so in theory there should be none left of!

I guess there may be some hard choices for rescues in there as well in terms of making the responsible but unpopular decision to PTS dogs whose behaviour could put their new owners & members of the public at risk.

 

[teapot]

In case anyone's interested, DEFRA released a statement on the recent increase of fatal attacks here. It appears they're gone for the unique approach of not criticising the dogs nor their owners, but recommending potential victims keep an eye out? People die and DEFRA's advice is "be safe". You couldn't make this up.

Out of interest what do you expect them to say? Especially as it’s not their place, nor are they able to comment on cases that may well go to court.

Govt comms have to be carefully written for fear of it being twisted. Anything stronger against certain dog breeds, or certain owner behaviour would be all over social media as ‘govt dept suggests owners are effing thick’ or ‘govt dept wants to ban all dogs of x size’.

It’s also important not to say too much if at some point they were to rely on public support for any proposed law changes.

 

[cauda equina]

Maybe not criticising owners, but Defra statement is certainly advising them - don't leave your child alone with a dog, learn to read your dog ("what is your dog telling you"?)
And I read the "Stay Safe" as meaning stay safe from your own dog
It is a bit feeble though, unless it was specifically released in response to the lastest domestic incident and wasn't intended to address the wider problems of out of control dogs

Maybe Defra is now under the same No Nanny State! constraints as other government departments

 

[skinnydipper]

I am curious, stangs, is XL bully the breed you would prefer?

If I was in the position to buy a dog, I’d be looking at a bull type breed provided I could find healthy lines. I don’t live in a dangerous area, but I would like to walk around feeling safe at 11pm, and you don’t get that feeling with Chihuahua.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I have to say that my friend's 2 TMs are the loveliest dogs to look at and to meet and are brilliant guards. They can really look the business and their size is enough to be intimidating but they don't have the 'attack' built into them that some of the bull types seem to.
The young couple local to my friend that have a young TM now have a new puppy, Neapolitan Mastiff x Cane Corso x XL Bully. Sweetheart at the moment but who knows in the future and what is the betting they cross it to their TM bitch.

 

[skinnydipper]

The young couple local to my friend that have a young TM now have a new puppy, Neapolitan Mastiff x Cane Corso x XL Bully. Sweetheart at the moment but who knows in the future and what is the betting they cross it to their TM bitch.

I know of a young couple who bought an imported docked and cropped Cane Corso puppy. Inexperienced owners.

As he has grown, challenging behaviour has increased. They are out of their depth. The last I heard it wasn't going well and he has bitten them.

 

[stangs]

Out of interest what do you expect them to say? Especially as it’s not their place, nor are they able to comment on cases that may well go to court.

Govt comms have to be carefully written for fear of it being twisted. Anything stronger against certain dog breeds, or certain owner behaviour would be all over social media as ‘govt dept suggests owners are effing thick’ or ‘govt dept wants to ban all dogs of x size’.

It’s also important not to say too much if at some point they were to rely on public support for any proposed law changes.

I appreciate that govt comms have to be carefully written, but shouldn’t there be a difference between “carefully written” and “a bunch of meaningless words” (ideally; my expectations for all things government are low)?

Things like “what is your dog telling you?” grate on my nerves. What is my dog telling me? Neither the press release nor the referenced code of Practice provide information on reading a dog’s body language beyond the very basics.

They write ‘accidents happen fast’ but, beyond advising to keep an eye on children and dogs, they don’t provide any comments on preventing those accidents on happening to start with. E.g., “work with a behaviourist if you have a dog you’re struggling with” couldn’t be twisted.

I am curious, stangs, is XL bully the breed you would prefer?

It depends on the dog, of course, but, as a general rule of thumb, I wouldn’t want an XL bully, no. I don’t like the ever shorter muzzles they’re breeding into them, and the majority of people breeding them don’t appear to be the conscientious breeder I’d like to give money to. There’s a specific type of American Bulldog I like instead, and would probably be the best out of my ‘dream’ breeds for a city lifestyle.

However, I don’t have a garden. I don’t have the time to provide a dog like this with adequate mental and physical stimulation. And, given that I dislike socialising, I wouldn’t buy a puppy that requires quite a bit of it to be a well-rounded individual. So you won't be seeing me on “dog killed owner” lists, if that’s what you’re worried about.

 

[skinnydipper]

It depends on the dog, of course, but, as a general rule of thumb, I wouldn’t want an XL bully, no. I don’t like the ever shorter muzzles they’re breeding into them, and the majority of people breeding them don’t appear to be the conscientious breeder I’d like to give money to. There’s a specific type of American Bulldog I like instead, and would probably be the best out of my ‘dream’ breeds for a city lifestyle.

However, I don’t have a garden. I don’t have the time to provide a dog like this with adequate mental and physical stimulation. And, given that I dislike socialising, I wouldn’t buy a puppy that requires quite a bit of it to be a well-rounded individual. So you won't be seeing me on “dog killed owner” lists, if that’s what you’re worried about.

I was curious to know the breed you would choose to make you feel safe.

Apart from my GSD puppy, my dogs have been chosen because I felt we would get along and they needed a home, so a bit of a mixture of breeds and types. Though the dogs I have had include a bull terrier, German Shepherds and current dog is a mastiff, keeping me safe has never been in their job description. Quite the opposite, I've always looked on it as my job to keep them safe

 

[teapot]

I appreciate that govt comms have to be carefully written, but shouldn’t there be a difference between “carefully written” and “a bunch of meaningless words” (ideally; my expectations for all things government are low)?

Things like “what is your dog telling you?” grate on my nerves. What is my dog telling me? Neither the press release nor the referenced code of Practice provide information on reading a dog’s body language beyond the very basics.

They write ‘accidents happen fast’ but, beyond advising to keep an eye on children and dogs, they don’t provide any comments on preventing those accidents on happening to start with. E.g., “work with a behaviourist if you have a dog you’re struggling with” couldn’t be twisted.

In an ideal world, sure more information, links etc would be needed regardless of subject matter, but I think it's worth considering that those types of press releases are done quickly, and written by people who are working on 101 different areas. They won't be thinking about whether the general public needs advice on whether to try a dog behaviourist or not, it's not their job to either. Those press releases are instead just used to show the general public that a Govt department is aware of what's happening outside the bubble.

 

[Clodagh]

I was curious to know the breed you would choose to make you feel safe.

Apart from my GSD puppy, my dogs have been chosen because I felt we would get along and they needed a home, so a bit of a mixture of breeds and types. Though the dogs I have had include a bull terrier, German Shepherds and current dog is a mastiff, keeping me safe has never been in their job description. Quite the opposite, I've always looked on it as my job to keep them safe

I do see where Stangs is coming from ( although none of the current killer dog trends attract me) I had a Doberman x kelpie in Oz and he was a natural guardian and living in some very rough areas he did indeed protect me on occasion.

 

[stangs]

I was curious to know the breed you would choose to make you feel safe.

Apart from my GSD puppy, my dogs have been chosen because I felt we would get along and they needed a home, so a bit of a mixture of breeds and types. Though the dogs I have had include a bull terrier, German Shepherds and current dog is a mastiff, keeping me safe has never been in their job description. Quite the opposite, I've always looked on it as my job to keep them safe

I get what you're saying.

By "feel safe"/"keep me safe", I don't mean in the protection dog sense where the dog may be put in danger to protect its carer. It's more that certain types of dog make their owners look like less of an easy target, and I'd like to go for walks at certain times of day in certain areas without being on edge the whole time. It's not a job description; it's nothing to be trained for. It's just their appearance.

 

[P3LH]

Has anyone seen (probably one of many) the ban the bully petition yet? https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618243

Given how many pitbull lookalikes I’ve seen in my time, I doubt a petition or even legislation would help: it would drive it underground but not eliminate breeding/selling of dogs. Was it @P3LH who said he’d seen a convention of bully types being mated in the back of vans at some park this year?

Sadly yes at a breed meet up rendezvous in a park….there were professional photographers and everything. It was all quite well appointed and set up oddly enough. A grim state of affairs really. Nearly every one with sliced off ears and wearing leather attire which would look more at home in the backstreets of soho.

 

[skinnydipper]

I get what you're saying.

By "feel safe"/"keep me safe", I don't mean in the protection dog sense where the dog may be put in danger to protect its carer. It's more that certain types of dog make their owners look like less of an easy target, and I'd like to go for walks at certain times of day in certain areas without being on edge the whole time. It's not a job description; it's nothing to be trained for. It's just their appearance.

People choosing dogs because they think they look tough could be the reason why we are in this mess.

 

[skinnydipper]

Owning a large dog is a responsibility I take seriously.

I do my best to avoid her being in a position where she feels she has to defend herself, which isn't easy given the number of idiot dog owners.

I certainly do not want to put her in the position where she felt she had to defend me.

Whatever the outcome of either of these situations, it would not end well for her.

 

[Clodagh]

But surely if push came to shove you’d rather she behaved threateningly and saved you from rape, for instance.
One night in Oz I was walking home from a friends and was surrounded by a group of men. They were very aggressive. My dog was pootling along doing smells but he instantly came and stood next to me and growled and snarled. One man still approached closer and the dog nipped him. They backed off and left.
It went on longer than that and possibly I over reacted but I was certainly in fear for my safety and was delighted he behaved as he did. It did not change his behaviour long term.

 

[SOS]

As another poster said, the most likely dogs to bite you in veterinary practice were not bull breeds, more so Westies/Daschunds/Chihuahuas.

However I think veterinary practice bites (note not attacks) are very different to those being spoken about in this thread. We unfortunately have to make animals uncomfortable, often cause them pain (injections, blood testing, finding painful areas) and put pressure on them. They normally give us lots of warning signs but sometimes we can’t stop what we are doing as we have to perform the act to help the animal. I have been bitten (with gauntlets on) and seen colleagues bitten. Never were these sustained, nor did I fear for their life. The dogs were reacting out of pure fear and last ditch attempt to stop whatever was going on. Tolerance and pain threshold came into play a lot, as well as this ladder of aggression. Toy breeds were IMO more likely to bite as they were less tolerant of exam and had learn growling/snapping got people off them.

(Side note: this makes veterinary practices sound awful, in reality we tried our best to keep all dogs in their happy zone and sedated when necessary)

The attacks discussed on this thread are very different. These are often people entering someone else’s home, sustained attacks and potentially unprovoked.

 

[SOS]

I don’t know what the answer is to stopping dog attacks. But I know that you are more likely to survive an attack from a Jack Russell than an 50kg XL bully. I chose a JRT as my example as they also have been bred to attack and cling on/flip (rats).

I unfortunately know a large breed (not bully) dog owned by friends who I fear could be one of these statistics in the future. I am desperately trying to get them to seek behavioural advice as they are expecting a baby. What scares me the most is very rarely do the news articles say there was never a problem with the dogs before. If anyone has advice, I would welcome it by PM.

 

[skinnydipper]

Edited it for you

This is what I said:

People choosing dogs because they think they look tough could be the reason why we are in this mess.

Don't edit my posts.

You are being very silly.

Kindly delete post #200 now.

 

[blackcob]

By "feel safe"/"keep me safe", I don't mean in the protection dog sense where the dog may be put in danger to protect its carer. It's more that certain types of dog make their owners look like less of an easy target, and I'd like to go for walks at certain times of day in certain areas without being on edge the whole time. It's not a job description; it's nothing to be trained for. It's just their appearance.

I too can see where you're coming from as I had significantly fewer problems with loose and rude dogs (and their rude and ignorant humans) when walking two oversized almost 30kg Siberian huskies than I do now walking a single 7kg fluffy spitzy thing. Some of it is circumstantial, there just being many more dogs around here in the last few years, but most of it I suspect is because people find it funny or harmless when the small dog reacts in a way that they absolutely wouldn't if it was a large dog of a certain type or appearance. Owning a dog like that comes with its own parcel of responsibilities but I'd be lying if I said that size, appearance and other people's likely perceptions didn't factor in to my choice of dog breed, and I don't think I'm just a tough nut trying to look hard.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I was raised with GSDs so I didn't 'pick' them as my breed, but I do remember going to a talk by a breed historian/author of one of the best books on the breed who said that he would be lying if he said he was not first attracted to them because of how they looked, and most other people would have to say the same.
And he's a teacher and choral singer who used to send me voice recordings of himself reading Yeats and Frost poetry over lockdown, so I wouldn't consider him a hard nut either.

Sadly having big dogs with pointy ears does not stop the idiot owners stop their dogs running up to us around here....

 

[stangs]

I apologise. I didn’t realise that my efforts to use a different medium in argument may have been silliness gone too far. I have added a disclaimer to my post as to not further damage your good name.

 

[marmalade76]

I was raised with GSDs so I didn't 'pick' them as my breed, but I do remember going to a talk by a breed historian/author of one of the best books on the breed who said that he would be lying if he said he was not first attracted to them because of how they looked, and most other people would have to say the same.
And he's a teacher and choral singer who used to send me voice recordings of himself reading Yeats and Frost poetry over lockdown, so I wouldn't consider him a hard nut either.

Sadly having big dogs with pointy ears does not stop the idiot owners stop their dogs running up to us around here....

They're my fave breed, beautiful dogs (the shorter coated being more my taste than the fluffy), intelligent, trainable, keen to please.. not everyone's dog, I know, nor are collies which is what I have (my house is not big enough for a GSD).

What I can't understand is why anyone would want these fugly, fat headed, squashed nosed, slobbery things unless they just want to look hard.

 

[skinnydipper]

But surely if push came to shove you’d rather she behaved threateningly and saved you from rape, for instance.
One night in Oz I was walking home from a friends and was surrounded by a group of men. They were very aggressive. My dog was pootling along doing smells but he instantly came and stood next to me and growled and snarled. One man still approached closer and the dog nipped him. They backed off and left.
It went on longer than that and possibly I over reacted but I was certainly in fear for my safety and was delighted he behaved as he did. It did not change his behaviour long term.

If she bit someone a change in her behaviour would be the least of my worries.

 

[skinnydipper]

....

 

[MurphysMinder]

Like CC I was born into a household of GSDs as my mum bred and showed them, so I didn't pick the breed as such. I have never had an aggressive one, but I always feel safe with them around. When I lost my girl unexpectedly earlier this year and for the first time in my life was without a GSD, I won't deny that I felt a bit more vulnerable as I live in a rural area. This despite the fact one of my Lancashire Heelers is actually a really good guard and has actually nipped a couple of people who thought they would ignore his warnings and come through the gate. I now have a shepherd pup, who has a lovely friendly temperament but I am sure just her presence will give me a bit of security and if she barks at the gate I am pretty sure people won't just walk in.

 

[FestiveG]

We got the pair of rottweilers (after having had one as a rescue) partly because they are quite off putting to casual thrives. I often spent two nights a week on my own here, in a quite vulnerable property. They were well socialised and never offered to bite anyone, but they were quite territorial and made a large noise if they believed there were interlopers.