Woman attacked by dogs and killed in Liverpool

[Fellewell]

a) Please let's not start encouraging drug dealers to buy more guns (though I appreciate there's probably not too many drug dealers looking for dog tips on HHO).
b) "Exploiting a reactive dog" isn't a crime (or else everyone who's made one of those 'funny' videos by upsetting their Bichon Frise would be in prison)
c) They're not protection dogs. They're not trained to protect. Their sole purpose is intimidation.
.

A) They don't need encouragement
B) Depends on your definition of reactive but IME truly reactive dogs do not engage at all. There is no bite inhibition even if it has been taught to a degree. In short, they have the potential to be dangerous depending on other variables, many of which have been 'discussed' on this thread. I just don't like the 'dangerous dog' tag.
As for watching someone torment a Bichon for entertainment, why would I want to watch that? Perhaps they should be locked up.
C) See post below #120 for DIY manwork and how it happens.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

The breed has everything to do with it. You don't hear about packs of spaniels attacking and killing people.

As for that labrador story, given the number of labs vs number of bull breeds and the frequency that that happens, it seems pretty obvious to me it's FAR more likely to happen with some breeds than others. Of course any dog can bite or kill, but the same offenders repeatedly appear time and time again.

Acutally spaniels are very good biters.

I have grown up with them, cavis, working cockers, show cockers and springers.

My grampys springer bit me on the face when i was younger, it was a warning nip as i stupidly bent down to give him a.kiss but while he was on his lap. I had been told not to. He was a gun dog and protective.
His old jack russel we didnt go near at all as he would bite. He would stay out of our way and we would stay out of his.
I have had more close calls from springers than any other dog.

Even knew two agressive cavillers, to both people and dogs.

Breed is a part of it but any breed can be turned into a killer.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

a) I like the way you criticised me here but not Cortez who made the same generalisation. Neat trick.
b) If I add a "could" before the "have", will that appease you?
c) Is fatalities the only criterion for a dog to be dangerous - is mauling not enough? Because, if that's the case, then this dog wasn't dangerous.

JRTs have killed several kids. St Bernards have mauled [x] [x]. Greyhounds have mauled [x]. Dauschunds have mauled [x]. Poodles have mauled [x]. Am I free to go yet, miss?

That hits a bit close to home, the eyes glazing over bit, our kelpie did that when she would suddenly attack the other dogs. And then snap out of it and look round in shock and try and lick them better.

She was pts when we couldnt fix the behavour with vet and trainers input and had a necropsy done. Found a brain tumor in the area that controls behaviour

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

I know 2 daschunds. One scares the s*** out of me.

I am a cat person not a dog person and have limited experience of dogs and have never had my own and am somewhat prejudiced as most of my experiences are of rude badly trained dogs.

Daschund a (one of the fluffy ones) - very barky but you can tell it's excitable barks, impeccable training due to the setting he goes into. I was watching him for his owner and he got hold of a piece of cling film. Not wanting him to eat it, I was able to put my fingers at the corner of his mouth and take it off him. Not even a growl or snarl. Very friendly.

Daschund b - scares me. Plunges snapping at other dogs. Plunges snapping at people. Did it to me the other day I shouted at it. It thought better the next time I dared get up out my seat (yes that's why I got ran and barked at for having the audacity to get something off the table). Apparently it's snapped at a child I fear if they have a baby it gives me chills. Owners have tried so many things but it's still a menace

I guess the small breeds are considered less dangerous as their bite won't be as strong as that of a bull breed type. It doesn't help people breeding up already powerful breeds to make them even more powerful eg the bully XL which I looked up and it's like it's on steroids all that muscle. It takes far less for something to go wrong if the dog snaps than a smaller breed even though the temperament on the small breed could be far worse.

Jesse Lingard, the footballer, had a video on his Instagram of him training his what looked like a cane corso? It was scary how locked onto the target they were and watching them jump up and grab it when he gave the command. The thought of them getting hold of a person is chilling. But it's not just big breeds that have a nasty streak there are several small breeds I wouldn't touch with a barge pole, e.g. chihuahua

 

[Michen]

Acutally spaniels are very good biters.

I have grown up with them, cavis, working cockers, show cockers and springers.

My grampys springer bit me on the face when i was younger, it was a warning nip as i stupidly bent down to give him a.kiss but while he was on his lap. I had been told not to. He was a gun dog and protective.
His old jack russel we didnt go near at all as he would bite. He would stay out of our way and we would stay out of his.
I have had more close calls from springers than any other dog.

Even knew two agressive cavillers, to both people and dogs.

Breed is a part of it but any breed can be turned into a killer.

Biters, not killers. any dog can bite. Jack Russell’s scare the life out of me!

 

[cbmcts]

Should we, as a society be tolerating any dog that bites? even if its a fluffy one? It's not a quick fix but I do feel that we need to completely re-evaluate what is and isn't acceptable in the canine world. Forget the demonisation of any particular breed - just looking at the XL bully, while it is horrific, deaths caused by them are in the low teens which if you compare to the many different ways that humans die prematurely is barely measurable. I don't mean that in a way of 'that's ok then' just if we take the route of banning breeds, muzzling and leashing large breeds and so on, it can cause complacency and a lack of awareness of the dangers of dogs. Those dangers can be minimised but not eliminated - basic risk management and maybe we do need extra measures for some large breeds until the owner handler can provide documented proof that the work put into these animals has made them as small a risk as possible - there has to be a carrot instead of just the blunt instrument of a stick.

Most of us should be very aware of the risks of animals as I'm guessing that most of us spend, or did spend time around horses. Despite the amount of time I spend with dogs in rescue and having been around dogs and horses all my life, I've had many more serious injuries and been a lot closer to death due to horse accidents rather than dogs! To be honest, I find it a bit bewildering that some horsey/animal people are so quick to shout ban this breed, that breed without considering the risks they take day in, day out with their safety and others to an extent (if a horse was to get loose on the road, for example). How would you feel if you were told that you could never turn your horse out in case a member of the public got kicked in the field or you couldn't ride on the road in case you came off and your horse caused a RTA? Lock them in stables and stay in school, just in case...

If there is the political will and societal pressure, attitudes will change. We saw it with seatbelt wearing and drink driving for those of us old enough to remember those laws changing. We've seen it climate change actions in more recent years - who would have thought that single use carrier bags, plastic straws and other single use plastics would have become so socially unacceptable only a decade ago? Smoking in public let alone indoors is another example

 

[Soap On A Rope]

When they aren’t owned by morons they are absolutely lovely dogs. Beautiful temperaments, amazing family dogs.
Sadly since covid, prices have rocketed, more and more people have been buying dogs who don’t understand how to train or care for them, and more and more clueless people are breeding for the money.
It breaks my heart that this keeps happening. When will our country understand that just banning breeds won’t help. Introducing much tighter restrictions around who can own and breed dogs is the only real way forward.

Pure bred American Bull Dogs are the kindest most gentle breed . The problems start when idiots cross them with an aggressive breed and call then XXL Bullies !!

This is my pure bred American Bulldog ...
How scarey lol..

 

[ycbm]

So your idea for legislation is crack down on XL bullies, but let people get mauled by the rest? How is that going to decrease dog bites and make for a safer society?

I wasn't talking about decreasing dog bites, I was talking about decreasing the number of humans killed directly by a dog attack.
.

 

[P3LH]

It’s a difficult one for me. I grew up with Stafford’s and dobes originally, followed by the working type terriers. The original Jack we had was more lethal than any other dog we had, but only a fool would say the others weren’t capable of doing more damage.

Our dogs weren’t owned by novices, and they were well handled, raised and managed. As were the many pits (then legal) (with the exception of one), EBT, mastiffs and bandogs I spent so much time with too. They were still capable of what they were capable of, but their upbringing and management made them functioning members of society.

So for me it comes down to, as it always has, the difficult question of: is the issue that these types of dogs with this capability should only be owned by experienced, very competent owners who have to be able to demonstrate this somehow? Or is the issue these types of dogs don’t have a place in society?

And the problem is, nobody will ever be able to answer it as when with the aforementioned type of owners the dogs can be functioning parts of society - and they hold a merit beyond their size, capability and status as to why these owners wish to own these dogs. Yes they still could do damage, but as with all risk assessments - the factors of risk are greatly reduced by competent and appropriate actions/responses/people. But they attract a significant majority of owners not suited to owning a flea, let alone a dog with such capability.

I still have a soft spot for all of the bull breeds - but interestingly, I don’t think I would ever have another again as don’t think I would be a suitable owner. Still, when I see a dark red stafford or a brindle and white bull terrier I could be swayed.

 

[CorvusCorax]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-63158888

 

[scats]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-63158888

That poor lady must have been so frightened ?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

There was an article in The Daily mail yesterday about 2 young kids in the US that were mauled to death by there parents dogs they were bull type dogs so sad.

 

[skinnydipper]

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/10/07/sheriff-dogs-attack-family-in-tennessee-2-children-die/

 

[Dexter]

All the people saying spaniels bite and they've been bitten etc, the only reason you are still alive is because it was a spaniel or lab and not a bull breed.

I don't think you can expect the idiots that have these dogs to be responsible owners no matter what you do, so surely the only answer is to ban these huge, incredibly powerful dogs and then make sure its policed hard.

 

[AmyMay]

I don't think you can expect the idiots that have these dogs to be responsible owners no matter what you do, so surely the only answer is to ban these huge, incredibly powerful dogs and then make sure its policed hard.

I do sort of agree with you. But I understand people’s reticence.

 

[stangs]

For context, pitbulls were banned in 1991 when the DDA came into effect. Since then, that Wiki page reports that there have been 10 fatalities caused by a pitbull or pitbull cross. In the meantime, Battersea had to PTS 91 pitbull types in 2015 alone, the majority of which were otherwise rehomeable. A really solid piece of legislation that we should definitely add to.

It is naive to think that banning XL bullies will reduce fatalities - or else the current DDA would have worked. They’re not going to crackdown on the backyard breeders. They’re not going to police harder. All that’s going to happen is that well-socialised family pets will be snitched on and then stuck in muzzles, and rescue bullies will be PTS. Not to mention that various mastiff crosses would likely fall under the XL bully dimensions - how are you going to police their breeding?

But, sure, more BSL is the way to go here. Because it works so well.

ETA: Don't take my word for it. Mora et al. (2018) found that BSL was ineffective at reducing fatal dog attacks in Spain. Schalke et al., (2008) found that the majority of dogs deemed dangerous (i.e., ownership is restricted by local law) passed a temperament test. Cornelissen & Hopster (2009) found that Dutch BSL also wasn’t ineffective - and the Netherlands no longer has BSL, after scientific evaluation of the legislation.

 

[skinnydipper]

I'm sitting here, with my dog sleeping by me, wondering why.

People attacked and killed by their own dogs. Why?

What sort of life did the dogs have?

How did the owners behave with their dogs generally?

What happened in the time leading up to the attack?

What triggered the attack?

 

[stangs]

In case anyone's interested, DEFRA released a statement on the recent increase of fatal attacks here. It appears they're gone for the unique approach of not criticising the dogs nor their owners, but recommending potential victims keep an eye out? People die and DEFRA's advice is "be safe". You couldn't make this up.

 

[stangs]

I'm sitting here, with my dog sleeping by me, wondering why.

People attacked and killed by their own dogs. Why?

What sort of life did the dogs have?

How did the owners behave with their dogs generally?

What happened in the time leading up to the attack?

What triggered the attack?

Loath as I am to link to the Mirror, this article - if the information is reliable - is quite insightful. Dog came from a very dodgy breeder, was a COVID puppy, and was bought by someone who appears to have been a caring owner but possibly didn't quite understand the management needs of the breed.

Is the "gentle giant" reputation potentially to blame for the wrong type of owners, though dog lovers, buying these dogs? After all, other guard dog breeds tend to get sold with the understanding that they're high energy dogs that are liable to become dangerous without the appropriate management.

 

[splashgirl45]

Another tragedy that could have been avoided.. when I was young the devil dogs were German shepherds and the main bull breeds were staffies who were much smaller than the dogs that pass for staffies now and they all seemed very sociable and friendly. If I see that type of dog now I am very careful as I know that my little terriers or my whippet cross wouldn’t stand a chance if one decided to turn. On saying that there is one staffie that I see regularly who is like the old type from my youth and the owner is in control of him and puts him on the lead when passing other dogs that he doesn’t know ..

 

[skinnydipper]

Thanks for posting the link, Stangs.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

It's often been noted that if they were Labrador-sized, they'd be on the DDA list.

As it is they are dangerously small and far too easy to fall over

 

[CorvusCorax]

OK so that was a hard read.

Sounds like the trigger in that case was the dogs fighting, which I don't find surprising at all, I have a couple of puncture wounds from trying to separate dogs, none of these dogs intended to bite 'me'. And it is probably a common theme in these attacks.

I don't think it's a secret that my two males don't get on. One lived as an only dog for seven years and already regarded the dog who came to live in his house four years ago (who is a dote) as his nemesis. They are large, entire, high drive males and I can train certain things but I am under no illusion that these dogs will ever like each other so why would I force that issue?
I also realise that if they did go at each other and I did intervene, all three of us would get hurt and I'm no good to anyone hurt.
Yes it is difficult and time consuming to manage three dogs separately but there you go...

I think some people are deluding themselves to think that all dogs can live together in perfect harmony and that they can control very base genetic instincts.
When the dog is in such a high state of arousal, it doesn't know what or where it is biting, it's nothing 'personal', but that doesn't matter when you're being bitten.

Also...2 and 4k? That's lunacy.

 

[twiggy2]

All the people saying spaniels bite and they've been bitten etc, the only reason you are still alive is because it was a spaniel or lab and not a bull breed.

I don't think you can expect the idiots that have these dogs to be responsible owners no matter what you do, so surely the only answer is to ban these huge, incredibly powerful dogs and then make sure its policed hard.

If you were bitten by a bull breed you would be highly unlikely to die, an attack is a completely different thing to a bite

 

[twiggy2]

OK so that was a hard read.

Sounds like the trigger in that case was the dogs fighting, which I don't find surprising at all, I have a couple of puncture wounds from trying to separate dogs, none of these dogs intended to bite 'me'. And it is probably a common theme in these attacks.

I don't think it's a secret that my two males don't get on. One lived as an only dog for seven years and already regarded the dog who came to live in his house four years ago (who is a dote) as his nemesis. They are large, entire, high drive males and I can train certain things but I am under no illusion that these dogs will ever like each other so why would I force that issue?
I also realise that if they did go at each other and I did intervene, all three of us would get hurt and I'm no good to anyone hurt.
Yes it is difficult and time consuming to manage three dogs separately but there you go...

I think some people are deluding themselves to think that all dogs can live together in perfect harmony and that they can control very base genetic instincts.
When the dog is in such a high state of arousal, it doesn't know what or where it is biting, it's nothing 'personal', but that doesn't matter when you're being bitten.

Also...2 and 4k? That's lunacy.

I can't see what it is you are reading?

 

[ester]

This https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-woman-killed-dog-as-27894532?int_source=nba

 

[twiggy2]

This https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-woman-killed-dog-as-27894532?int_source=nba

Thank you for that.
What sad reading,

 

[skinnydipper]

Is the "gentle giant" reputation potentially to blame for the wrong type of owners, though dog lovers, buying these dogs? After all, other guard dog breeds tend to get sold with the understanding that they're high energy dogs that are liable to become dangerous without the appropriate management.

TBH, stangs, I am not sold on the idea that people buy an XL bully because they think it is a "gentle giant".

 

[bonny]

TBH, stangs, I am not sold on the idea that people buy an XL bully because they think it is a "gentle giant".

Read the mirror article above, the mum of the woman killed said she bought two bully dogs because she saw them as gentle giants.

 

[skinnydipper]

Read the mirror article above, the mum of the woman killed said she bought two bully dogs because she saw them as gentle giants.

Do you think that generally that's why people buy them, because they think they are gentle giants?

And I suppose they cut their ears off because they think it looks cute.