Woman attacked by dogs and killed in Liverpool

cbmcts

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Also don't forget that the lockdown dogs - anything with 4 legs, a body and some sort of head, tail and ears not essential - are now young adults. Many are unsocialised, untrained, in unsuitable homes with owners whose lives have now gone back to 'normal'. They were bought without thought or even considering breed traits and the owners had minimal support (for those who might have sought it) when trainers/classes were in short supply. Considering how badly bred most of those dogs were, it is a miracle that more people haven't been seriously injured. I'm not just looking at the classic 'devil' dogs mentioned on this thread but using anecdata and talk among rescues, some of the labradoodle types are causing big issues as are boxers, labs, GRs, husky types, spaniels and other non typical breeds. The other thing I've noted is how many Patterdales there are at the moment - I adore terriers but they are hardcore and generally not ideal family pets...

I am very anti breed legislation. Well I would be, owning rotts but mainly because it's been proven over many years to not reduce dog attacks and deaths. You can have an approved breed and still have a dangerous dog if you are either an ineffectual handler or someone who wants a status dog. Any breed can be dangerous even though bigger dogs have the potential to do more damage but if you are young, small, elderly, have an underlying health condition, you may be at risk of serious injury or death if attacked by even a small dog. The 'ban the breed' cry is a knee jerk reaction to a people problem, until those people can be banned from owning any dog, there will still -sadly - deaths caused by dogs. While each death or serious injury is a terrible tragedy, let's also remember that there are now millions of dogs in this country and those that kill someone are a tiny, tiny percentage of that number. It should be 0% but realistically that it is unlikely to ever happen.
 

AShetlandBitMeOnce

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That's a trite response, and not a particularly helpful addition to the debate - very few people have been mauled to death by spaniels. As you are well aware there is a huge weighting towards bull breeds when looking at serious and fatal dog attacks.

Agreed, plus if a 1kg Chihuahua is going for me, a swift kick to the head is going to do a lot more good than kicking a 60kg XL Bully that is going for me.. so they're all dangerous but it's a completely facetious thing to say.
 

stangs

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That's a trite response, and not a particularly helpful addition to the debate - very few people have been mauled to death by spaniels. As you are well aware there is a huge weighting towards bull breeds when looking at serious and fatal dog attacks.
I didn't think it needed an explanation but all dogs can injury or kill someone. A Chihuahua could kill a baby if left alone with it - which could easily happen with an irresponsible owner. You wrote that you thought people shouldn't be allowed to own "potentially dangerous dogs". However, given that all dogs fit this category, some more than others, it would be impossible to write the legislation that you seem to be advocating for.

How many breeds would you ban until you were satisfied that the dangerous dogs were gone (not that banning breeds gets rid of them)? XL bullies, sure, but then you'd have to ban staffies because they're used to breed pitbull types, even though every staffy I've met has been a lovely person. No one has been mauled to death in the UK by Kangals, so would you keep them or ban them because they're a LGD? But that's not enough. A husky killed someone not long ago, so we have to ban huskies as well. Rotties and dobermans need to go too because they were originally bred to be dangerous, and have killed people. GSDs too, to be on the safe side, as they've also killed - though they're one of the most popular breeds in the UK, so quite a few owners will be upset with you for that one. And we can't forget about banning Cane Corsos, but again you can create their type with the right mastiff cross, so do we ban every mastiff breed? A Malamute killed someone in 2014 so let's get rid of them, because they're also "potentially dangerous". Border collies and JRTs have mauled and killed babies, so we can't allow anyone to own them either. Now, I almost got attacked by two springer spaniels last year - the only reason I don't have a chunk missing from my thigh is because they were muzzled, luckily - so, personally, I'd like spaniels banned too. Just to be on the safe side. Because they're potentially dangerous. Is that enough banned breeds for you, or do you think there are more "potentially dangerous" dogs around?

Or say you just decide to ban XL bullies. Still doesn't work: either you end up with hundreds of mastiff x staffies to create the same type, or you follow the DDA's attitude to pitbulls, which means someone's family pet either spends the rest of its life in a muzzle or gets PTS because it had the characteristics of a breed that it isn't?

What isn't a particularly helpful addition to the debate is how you're parroting the same idea though countless people have already explained why breed-specific legislation doesn't work.
 

Cortez

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I didn't think it needed an explanation but all dogs can injury or kill someone. A Chihuahua could kill a baby if left alone with it - which could easily happen with an irresponsible owner. You wrote that you thought people shouldn't be allowed to own "potentially dangerous dogs". However, given that all dogs fit this category, some more than others, it would be impossible to write the legislation that you seem to be advocating for.

How many breeds would you ban until you were satisfied that the dangerous dogs were gone (not that banning breeds gets rid of them)? XL bullies, sure, but then you'd have to ban staffies because they're used to breed pitbull types, even though every staffy I've met has been a lovely person. No one has been mauled to death in the UK by Kangals, so would you keep them or ban them because they're a LGD? But that's not enough. A husky killed someone not long ago, so we have to ban huskies as well. Rotties and dobermans need to go too because they were originally bred to be dangerous, and have killed people. GSDs too, to be on the safe side, as they've also killed - though they're one of the most popular breeds in the UK, so quite a few owners will be upset with you for that one. And we can't forget about banning Cane Corsos, but again you can create their type with the right mastiff cross, so do we ban every mastiff breed? A Malamute killed someone in 2014 so let's get rid of them, because they're also "potentially dangerous". Border collies and JRTs have mauled and killed babies, so we can't allow anyone to own them either. Now, I almost got attacked by two springer spaniels last year - the only reason I don't have a chunk missing from my thigh is because they were muzzled, luckily - so, personally, I'd like spaniels banned too. Just to be on the safe side. Because they're potentially dangerous. Is that enough banned breeds for you, or do you think there are more "potentially dangerous" dogs around?

Or say you just decide to ban XL bullies. Still doesn't work: either you end up with hundreds of mastiff x staffies to create the same type, or you follow the DDA's attitude to pitbulls, which means someone's family pet either spends the rest of its life in a muzzle or gets PTS because it had the characteristics of a breed that it isn't?

What isn't a particularly helpful addition to the debate is how you're parroting the same idea though countless people have already explained why breed-specific legislation doesn't work.
Goodness, why are some people being so snide? I love a good debate, but it really adds nothing if you're just going to be immature. I personally am obviously not going to be in charge of any legislation, so asking me to compile a list of dogs is not very useful, although for the record I really don’t see why people feel the need to own many of the breeds you have listed. I'm sure someone, somewhere, at some time, has been killed by every breed of dog that exists; that really has no bearing on the argument. Neither does the fact that dear old Killer the staffie is a big softie and everybody loves him. The facts are that most serious and fatal dog attacks are perpetrated by dogs of an identifiable type. I therefore feel that it is not unreasonable to contemplate controls. Or is everyone happy to just carry on and let the staus quo continue?

PS I am not a parrot.
 

Books'n'dogs

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I didn't realise you lot don't have dog licencing, do you also not have dog wardens? IMO some breeds should be banned, never mind the "bad dogs have bad owners" stuff; no one who is not a member of the police or the armed forces needs a dog that is designed to bite and hold, nor one that is bred to be aggressive. If you love the bully breeds or the guardian breeds, or the fighting breeds, tough. Go find another type of dog to love.
I respectfully disagree that people other than the police or military shouldn't be allowed to own the breeds often deemed dangerous. I shared my life with a German Shepherd for over 12 years and she never bit anyone, vets always told me they wished all of their patients were as sweet and compliant with them as she was, the vet who put her to sleep in March cried almost as hard as I did. I have been around a lot of German Shepherds in my life and there has only been one who was a dangerous dog and that was the owner's fault (said owner shouldn't have owned any type of dog, much less a powerful breed). I know there are poorly bred German Shepherds as well as idiots who have no business owning the breed but in my experience the vast majority of people who own them are very responsible.

The two worst dog bites I am personally aware of were a neighbor's (poorly bred) Labrador Retriever who mauled a child in the household, the adults in the family were on the scene and quickly intervened but serious damage was still done. The other was a friend of one of my brothers who was attacked by an English Springer Spaniel as he walked past the dog's home, the attack was bad enough that the young man spent over a week in the hospital in the summer of 2020 and there were concerns his leg may have to be amputated because of an infection that set in, the victim went from liking dogs to being completely terrified of them. The only dogs I've been bit by were a German Shorthaired Pointer (in the face as a 3 year old child) and an American Cocker Spaniel (in the hand, also at the age of 3). Any dog can inflict serious damage if it wants to and thanks to indiscriminate breeding and stupid owners there are plenty that do, regardless of the breed or type.
 
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planete

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I agree if we are going to do something then the most powerful breeds should be more tightly controlled as being the ones which can inflict the most severe damage. I would not go by breed but by weight at one year old. Perhaps all owners of larger dogs (bigger than a chihuahua?) should be licensed? Not the dogs, the owners. They would need to attend training classes for dog behaviour and management and be able to demonstrate control of the dogs after a set training course. It would not stop bites from chihuahuas of course but that is a risk I would be willing to take. Fantasy land of course, just trying to veer from the usual re-hashed arguments. :oops:
 

stangs

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Goodness, why are some people being so snide? I love a good debate, but it really adds nothing if you're just going to be immature. I personally am obviously not going to be in charge of any legislation, so asking me to compile a list of dogs is not very useful, although for the record I really don’t see why people feel the need to own many of the breeds you have listed. I'm sure someone, somewhere, at some time, has been killed by every breed of dog that exists; that really has no bearing on the argument. Neither does the fact that dear old Killer the staffie is a big softie and everybody loves him. The facts are that most serious and fatal dog attacks are perpetrated by dogs of an identifiable type. I therefore feel that it is not unreasonable to contemplate controls. Or is everyone happy to just carry on and let the staus quo continue?

The trick of calling people 'snide' when they're raised a genuine problem with your argument is a good one, I'll have to use it sometime.

To summarise:
As you correctly stated here, almost all, if not all, breeds have killed someone.
Bull breeds are currently the favoured breed for many groups of people, especially those looking to feel protected or to intimidate others.
As a result of their large population in the aforementioned circles, not just their build [1], they've killed several people in recent years.
If you were to somehow come up with legislation that successfully got rid of them, people would look to different breeds to fill that same niche.
As a result, there'd be an increase in fatal attacks from those breeds.
Then you'd be on here posting that those breeds need to be controlled because they're involved in so many attacks.

There is no end to this cycle if you support breed-specific legislation, because, fundamentally, the owners are the problem, not the dogs. That's what any legislation needs to target.

[1] theirs is not the only build bred to cause injuries
.
 

honetpot

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I once watched a programme many years ago where they were investigating how an elderly woman was killed, they thought by a group of small dogs, terrier size, she had been left with.
With hidden cameras they left someone of her size in the position where she was found, with the dogs, and it was shown as soon as the substitute started to fail or make noises they started to attack working as a pack. I think any dog given the right circumstances will attack, seeing it's victim as a threat, or prey, it's a instinct that is only controlled by habituation and training and every breed or size is just as capable of causing harm.
https://time.com/5280769/dog-attack-dachshund-woman-oklahoma-death/
 
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AShetlandBitMeOnce

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I once watched a programme many years ago where they were investigating how an elderly woman was killed, they thought by a group of small dogs, terrier size, she had been left with.
With hidden cameras they left someone of her size in the position where she was found, with the dogs, and it was shown as soon as the substitute started to fail or make noises they started to attack working as a pack. I think any dog given the right circumstances will attack, seeing it's victim as a threat, or prey, it's a instinct that is only controlled by habituation and training and every breed or size is just as capable of causing harm

yes, but if I have understood your post correctly, she was already down and ailing somewhat either from a fall or what have you; like somtimes when you see a dog having attacked when the owner has had an epileptic fit. That's vastly different to a dog going for an adult in normal every day circumstances.
 

cbmcts

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The facts are that most serious and fatal dog attacks are perpetrated by dogs of an identifiable type. I therefore feel that it is not unreasonable to contemplate controls. Or is everyone happy to just carry on and let the staus quo continue?

PS I am not a parrot.

In my opinion, for the whole tuppence ha'penny it's worth, we need to stop looking at the dogs involved and look hard at the people responsible for them. They are the ones at fault here. But societies attitudes will have to radically change for that to happen. Personal responsibility is sadly lacking as are consequences which should be kicking in at a much earlier stage than an actual attack because I find it very hard to believe that that the first time a dog has reacted is a fatal attack.

Usually financial carrots and sticks are effective. Dog licences could work but is there the infrastructure in place or the will to put it in? Probably not! But if at least third party insurance was compulsory - yes I know, not infallible as we know with microchips - that would make some people think a little harder about their choice of breed. Underwriting could help, one bed flat in town, the premium for a BC, Mali would be dear. However something more suitable, lower price. Proven training such as KC levels could give the equivalent of car no claims bonus's until your insurance premium is tiny. End result would be a civilised dog with an educated owner. Maybe then the resources would be available to deal with the minority of owners that flout the law?
 

ycbm

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In my opinion, for the whole tuppence ha'penny it's worth, we need to stop looking at the dogs involved and look hard at the people responsible for them.

I don't agree I'm afraid. I've been in court and signed a death warrant for an Akita cross. I don't think you can stop people who are completely unsuitable from owning dogs, in any way that would be workable. I think it would be far easier to control the ownership of dog breeds which are capable of easily killing a human.

For a start I don't see why any dog over a certain size shouldn't be required to be muzzled if off lead in public, with heavy penalties if they aren't and they damage a human or another animal.
.
 

CorvusCorax

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fiwen30

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I don't agree I'm afraid. I've been in court and signed a death warrant for an Akita cross. I don't think you can stop people who are completely unsuitable from owning dogs, in any way that would be workable. I think it would be far easier to control the ownership of dog breeds which are capable of easily killing a human.

For a start I don't see why any dog over a certain size shouldn't be required to be muzzled if off lead in public, with heavy penalties if they aren't and they damage a human or another animal.
.

Was actually just popping in to raise this potential scenario - a basket muzzle for every dog, out in public? Yay or nay?

I think I’d go yay - reduces danger to wildlife, humans, other dogs etc., and reduces likelihood of eating things which might make a dog sick. Only downside might be if it is out of sight and gets caught up somewhere.
 

honetpot

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yes, but if I have understood your post correctly, she was already down and ailing somewhat either from a fall or what have you; like somtimes when you see a dog having attacked when the owner has had an epileptic fit. That's vastly different to a dog going for an adult in normal every day circumstances.
The programme I saw the victim was found on a couch, she may have been unwell before the attack. In the investigation, when the substitute laid still, the dogs ignore them, it was movement and sound that stimulated them to attack. There are also other reports on small dogs being involved in deaths of people, this is why children should never be left with even household pets on their own.
I can not find a link to the original programme which showed the film of the behaviour, in the US dog attack deaths seem to be common, and so have been studied.
https://www.livescience.com/61241-how-often-do-dogs-maul-owners.html
 

Cortez

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stangs

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I'd want to see your evidence on that. I've never heard of a yorkie, westie, scottie, Jack Russel, shitzu, mini dachshund, bichon frise, poodle, St Bernard, whippet, greyhound, ..... killing anyone?
a) I like the way you criticised me here but not Cortez who made the same generalisation. Neat trick.
b) If I add a "could" before the "have", will that appease you?
c) Is fatalities the only criterion for a dog to be dangerous - is mauling not enough? Because, if that's the case, then this dog wasn't dangerous.

JRTs have killed several kids. St Bernards have mauled [x] [x]. Greyhounds have mauled [x]. Dauschunds have mauled [x]. Poodles have mauled [x]. Am I free to go yet, miss?
 

ycbm

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JRTs have killed several kids. St Bernards have mauled [x] [x]. Greyhounds have mauled [x]. Dauschunds have mauled [x]. Poodles have mauled [x]. Am I free to go yet, miss?

Not really. If you give me a choice between being mauled by a JRT, a standard poodle, a rottweiler and an American XL bully, my choice will be that order, on the basis of likelihood of my survival if the length and ferocity of the attack is equal for each dog.
.
 

stangs

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Not really. If you give me a choice between being mauled by a JRT, a standard poodle, a rottweiler and an American XL bully, my choice will be that order, on the basis of likelihood of my survival if the length and ferocity of the attack is equal for each dog.
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So your idea for legislation is crack down on XL bullies, but let people get mauled by the rest? How is that going to decrease dog bites and make for a safer society?
 

CorvusCorax

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OK here's where language is important.

As I've said before, ad nauseum, very few people get 'gored to death' by cattle, they get headbutted or trampled or crushed, because very few cows have horns, but people only remember the headlines.

Similarly, not everyone who dies after a dog incident is 'mauled to death'. Sometimes the biting, if it happens, is fairly superficial.
And this is not to negate any death.

Some are knocked over and hit their heads.
Some have heart attacks.
Some go into shock.
Some get blood poisoning/infection.
Some are already fitting and the bite injuries are secondary.

But again, very few people read the inquests.

Anyone who thinks getting bitten by a smaller, less 'butch' dog than an XL bully doesn't hurt LF or cause damage, hasn't been bitten.
My friend's son recently had plastic surgery after he was bitten on the face by a Golden Retriever.
 
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