Would you expect a YO to be able/willing to remove a shoe?

[The Xmas Furry]

Making the horse wait til Wednesday was a very poor call, and would be a sackable offence in my view. I would not trust her again to care for my horse.

She should have got a farrier or a vet out as a matter of urgency.

This.

Only once have I removed a shoe from a livery horse (when I had them) and the odd few of mine over the years. That one was a Sunday eve and there was no way I'd have even led horse into the yard with it like that. Deed done, farrier was phoned and arrived next day to sort.
Owner was just happy it was sorted out with minimum of fuss.

 

[milliepops]

i have found that farriers are happy to show owners how to do it, and advise on a basic couple of tools to make it easier. (and then stand and laugh watching your attempts )
I'm not sure why it's worse to know how to approach it than to have no idea? a shoe that's twisted so a bit loose is easier than one that's still nailed on securely anyway IME

 

[atropa]

Wouldn't expect the YO to do it (although have been lucky enough to have a YO capable and knowledgeable enough to do it in the past) but as others have said would expect on full livery a farrier or vet to remove the following date at the latest

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I would not expect the YO to do this, but would be extremely grateful if they did.

As far as the stage 2 is concerned, it is an example as to why the exam isn't worth as much as experience. The students I taught had a session with a farrier, where they did actually remove a shoe. It is extremely difficult. I can't believe the BHS thinks simulating this is suitable to pass an exam. Likely to do more harm than good.

It would be better if a registered farrier had to sign you off as having actually achieved it.

My farrier wanted to teach people how to do it and to supervise it being done but was told he was not allowed. He could not even show owners on their own horses. Though he actually does teach owners unofficially if they ask. I wonder how your farrier got round that Red? The rules are they can be removed by non farriers in an emergenct but a teaching situation is not an emergency so didn't count. Which seems totally daft to me.

Luckily, removing Toby's shoe was actually very easy.

 

[ester]

Which rules? As there are plenty of trimmers taking shoes off.

 

[magicmoments]

I have removed a shoe a handful of times on horses in my care ( loan/ share) as I have the tools. It not easy for me, and a worry if they pull their foot away mid removal, but to me it's got to be done if the shoe is twisted or in the last case entirely moved back and toe clip was embedded in white line. I simply couldn't have left it. If I was a YO I would probably call a professional in case of blame later if removal went wrong though. Not something to be left for a few days in my opinion.

 

[teapot]

I would not expect the YO to do this, but would be extremely grateful if they did.

As far as the stage 2 is concerned, it is an example as to why the exam isn't worth as much as experience. The students I taught had a session with a farrier, where they did actually remove a shoe. It is extremely difficult. I can't believe the BHS thinks simulating this is suitable to pass an exam. Likely to do more harm than good.

It would be better if a registered farrier had to sign you off as having actually achieved it.

You are signed off for it in part (but not the actual physical taking off of) and any decent student should be taking one off as part of their training pre exam. I certainly did, farriers were happy to help!

Also, if you read the new exam guidelines, you'll know it wouldnt be a junior member of staff's task to do so, it would be a senior coach or yard manager. Which is exactly how it was on the yard I was on. No one without at least twenty years experience was allowed anywhere near shoes that needed coming off.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Which rules? As there are plenty of trimmers taking shoes off.

I think he said it was the Farriers Registration Council. Only vets and farriers or trainees under supervision can 'practice farriery ' which pulling a shoe is. Unless it's an emergency. But teaching owners how to pull shoes in case of future emergency was not allowed.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

So that implies trimmers should not be pulling shoes?

 

[Tiddlypom]

It’s only banging nails into horses feet to secure a shoe that is limited to farriers. Anyone can pull the nails out.

Or anyone can at least try to pull the nails out...

 

[criso]

In an absolute emergency I would hope so. I had a situation where my horse managed to pull 1 1/2 back shoes off in his stable. One was pulled right off, the other was half off and twisted with nails sticking out so that he could either step on it or catch his other leg on it. My farrier couldn't come out, ym's farrier couldn't come out, another livery's farrier couldn't come out. Luckily another livery turned up and he'd done it before, it came off fairly easily apparently with only about 2 nails holding it on.

I understand the insurance point of view but I remember a vet, same horse with suspected abscess. Two of the nails broke off in the foot and she wasn't able to pull them out with pliers so they were left for my farrier to sort out.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

She would not even contact the farrier as it was Sunday. So I texted mine but from 250 miles away it was not easy to sort it.

I would be very unimpressed with that kind of service.

 

[SusieT]

No I wouldn't expect it. I can do it. If it was an emergency the person you would need to call is a vet who could remove it and has a 24/7 emergency rota to cover actual painful injuries which a stuck shoe can occasionally be. A yard owner isn't insured, and what if they made horse more lame or took a chunk of hoof off?

 

[DabDab]

"Under Section 16 of the Farriers (Registration) Act 1975 it is an offence for unregistered persons to carry out farriery. Farriery is defined in the Act as “any work in connection with the preparation of the foot of a horse the immediate reception of a shoe, the fitting by nailing or otherwise of a shoe to the foot, or the finishing off of such work to the foot”."

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I got curious and looked up the rules. Removal of a shoe prior to shoeing is classed as farriery. So maybe they saw teaching owners to remove shoes as farriery too. Of maybe it was just some jobsworth and he was unlucky about who he asked. I'll have to ask him again about it.

I used to organise an aquathlon and the responses I got from council staff or the swimming baths or the Peak Park folk varied dramatically depending on who I asked. From 'sure no problem' to 'ooh no, cant do that'. In the end it's how people interpret rules I guess.

 

[PapaverFollis]

We've pulled shoes off our own horses and pulled twisted shoes off other people's. We don't have a resident farrier in the area so it's usually a day or two before you can get someone. One of the farriers did an informal emergency shoe removal class on the yard and we had a shared box of tools. When granny horse threw a shoe and was hopping without it I had to phone about 4 different farriers and beg cos when they do come up they are fully booked. Eventually I sounded so upset and desperate one of them gave in!

It's part of the reason I've taken mine barefoot again.

 

[DabDab]

Yep, there's no mention of 'in an emergency' legislation-wise. It's just down to whether you're deemed to be preparing the foot for a shoe.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Making the horse wait til Wednesday was a very poor call, and would be a sackable offence in my view. I would not trust her again to care for my horse.

She should have got a farrier or a vet out as a matter of urgency.

This^^^^ 100%..!!!
In your shoes (pardon the pun ?) I'd be mighty pi$$ed off. Nor would I be keeping a horse on full livery with her. How on Earth did she believe it would be acceptable to leave the poor lad till Wednesday..???

 

[TPO]

You (generic) are allowed to remove a shoe and trim a hoof as long as it's not in preparation for the shoe to be replaced by you.

Removing a shoe is classed as first aid as long as, as said above, you are not removing the shoe to replace it then it is not illegal.

It is hard to remove a shoe but there is a knack to it and as MP said it's much easier if the shoe is already loose.

In answer to OP yes I would expect a YO to know how to remove a shoe and have the necessary tools but in all my decades in livery I've never had a YO I would trust or think competent to do it and I've not know any YO to have tools (based on being asked for mine/for me to do the removal on a few occasions).

In the situation given in the OP I would have expected the yard farrier to be called or a vet when the horse was lame and YO wouldn't/couldn't remove the shoe. A horse should never be left with a twisted shoe.

 

[SpotsandBays]

We’ve had a couple of DIYs here, (only mine is shod currently, and he will likely be the only one with shoes from now) but if I had somebody here who had shoes that needed pulling I wouldn’t do it as I don’t have the tools, experience. BUT I would however call a farrier or somebody who could remove it safely.

 

[ester]

As others have said the regs consider 'prep to shoe' - I was checking you didn't mean different ones I didn't know about .
So I guess it depends whether removing the old ones is prep if you are going to reshoe them. Personally I'd think that was a bit of a stretch and given that the FRC don't seem to care much about what their registerees are up to anyway .

 

[Boulty]

If a horsey YO & a horse known to them then yes in an emergency situation I would expect them to be able to do so if required. In a non-emergency (but still needing sorting) then I would expect them to contact the farrier / vet the same day & to have them attend either that day or day after (obvs rather hard to get a farrier at short notice on a Sunday). I can see in a situation where they don't know you or the horse that well why they may be reluctant to pull it themselves (they may have had a bad experience in the past maybe?) but can't see why they wouldn't at least message the farrier & ask for them to come the next day to sort

 

[rara007]

Have you seen the hash job some people (vets included!) make at removing shoes?! I wouldn’t want anyone from the yard touching mines feet. If it’s so loose it’s moving then get someone to it or remove the nails that are out and boot/bandage it until it’s safe. And I say that as someone who has been examined on removing shoes! If something’s in the sole leave that for the vets to remove.

 

[maya2008]

Last time I was on a yard, my OH was the guy who was called on to remove shoes in emergencies. He had been shown how by the farrier, and is very strong and precise with his hands. He also has the tools. He can get shoes off easily with no additional damage. I wouldn’t want to try though! Ours are now all barefoot so it’s a redundant skill. YO couldn’t do it though - not met one happy and willing to do so. It’s why OH put the effort in to learning how!

 

[Red-1]

....
I'm not sure why it's worse to know how to approach it than to have no idea? a shoe that's twisted so a bit loose is easier than one that's still nailed on securely anyway IME

I say that because, although a slightly twisted shoe can make a horse sore over time, one where someone has had an attempt at removing but only got it half way off, then puts it down because they get stuck, is a whole lot more dangerous. The number of people I have seen, under instruction, get half way and then realise that they 'can't' is high. Leading someone to think that they can, because the BHS has certified them under exam, where all they had to do was stand with the foot and simulate the action is, quite frankly, laughable.

For teaching exams, people have to be signed off by a professional. Why not make this the same for removing a shoe? Of course, the former makes money for BHS qualified people, whereas the latter does not

I think he said it was the Farriers Registration Council. Only vets and farriers or trainees under supervision can 'practice farriery ' which pulling a shoe is. Unless it's an emergency. But teaching owners how to pull shoes in case of future emergency was not allowed.

I think your farrier was having you on! You can't nail on or prepare the foot for shoeing. Or, indeed, finish off.

Someone also asked how we organised it. I was the risk assessor, so I did a risk assessment, including the proper leather chaps, how to stand to protect your back, the safe (roped off) area to work in etc. Quiet horse, supervision... But, the people had to remove a shoe. If nothing else it would sort the wheat from the chaff as to who would be able to remove one in an emergency and who would make the situation worse with getting half way. We tried to get them to remove both front and rear as the mechanics of holding the foot are different, but if someone was particularly struggling they just did one.

I think we all valued the farrier more afterwards too!

 

[Auslander]

I can remove a shoe, and I have tools - but I will only take a shoe off if it staying in place will cause the horse damage. It's a ballache to do, and the farrier can do a far better job. I've taken one off this year, because I had to, but I'd happily never remove another shoe!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Red my farrier was definitely not having me on.
He's a fantastic guy and really passionate about educating owners. Always has trainees etc. He was so disappointed in not being able to run a course for owners in removing shoes that he thought of running one using dead legs but as removing a shoe off a leg is a totally different skill there wasnt really any point.
So either he came across a jobsworth or the rules have changed since you did it (as they seem to have in so many ways making people ludicrously risk averse) or he framed his request wrong so his plan was misunderstood or it was an insurance problem. I dont know. Was your course insured/signed off on? Who by?? I'd be very grateful if you could post or PM details and I'll let him know.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I say that because, although a slightly twisted shoe can make a horse sore over time, one where someone has had an attempt at removing but only got it half way off, then puts it down because they get stuck, is a whole lot more dangerous. The number of people I have seen, under instruction, get half way and then realise that they 'can't' is high.

That would be my worry, too. There is a high likelihood of a bodged job if an amateur has a go.

I have removed shoes once or twice, but they were already very loose, partly twisted and it was an emergency. I would never attempt to or be able to remove a still tightly nailed shoe.

If there is no attempt to replace the shoe, then pulling a shoe is not in contravention of the farriery regs.

 

[Berpisc]

I had to remove the odd shoe a couple of times when I had diy liveries and had a couple of tools (after the first one ) to help. I only did this because the shoe needed attending to immediately. It was not something I would undertake lightly.

 

[Goldenstar]

The horse should not have been made to wait .
the YOer should have called the vet to do it immediately