Would you expect a YO to be able/willing to remove a shoe?

[Nari]

I would only expect the yard owner to remove in an emergency, though I agree it's a skill every owner should have. Under normal circumstances I would expect them to get a farrier, or even vet, and also if it had had to be taken off as an emergency to check no damage had been done. A badly removed shoe can do almost as much damage as waiting for an expert.

A question for those saying a yard owner should remove - if it went wrong and the damage was worse as a result would you hold them responsible?

 

[milliepops]

A question for those saying a yard owner should remove - if it went wrong and the damage was worse as a result would you hold them responsible?

well it's a bit of a hypothetical situation, because I would expect someone attempting to remove a shoe to be capable of doing so competently. so I'd turn it all around and say the question for me is more about what skills should someone make sure they have, before offering full livery. because in offering full care, you are sort of saying you are capable of looking after someone else's horse to an excellent standard.

accepting that, and assuming it was an emergency, and there was no farrier/vet within a short drive available, and the shoe needed to come off, and the YO was a competent person - if it went wrong I'd accept that shit happens sometimes. but they had done everything they could to get a good result.

 

[PapaverFollis]

It would depend if they had my permission to do so or not. And the circumstances and risk assessment they had carried out.

 

[dorsetladette]

I'd expect the YO/YM to be able to either remove a shoe or organise the removal pretty swiftly. Surely this is part of equine first aid? and I'd expect a YO/YM to be able to put a compression bandage on a horse while waiting for a vet if needed.

Maybe the blame culture has got a bit out of hand and YM/YO feel that it is safer(financially/reputation wise) for them for a horse to stand there with a self inflicted injury that to attempt to help relieve its suffering and risk getting accused of causing the injury/making it worse.

 

[TPO]

I would hold YO/anyone responsible if they caused damage and/or made the situation worse. Removing a shoe isn't that big a deal and every owner of shod horses should know how to do it and have the tools to do it. I would expect owners of shod horses and anyone selling the service of care/full livery to also be able to know if it's a situation that they can handle, e.g. a straightforward removal of a loose/twisted shoe, and a situation that requires a farrier and/or vet, i.e. a puncture.

I wouldn't expect if of every YO but this YO was offering Full Livery services and that includes administering basic first aid and/or engaging with the relevant professional.

Personally I'm really bemused by some of the attitudes towards shoe removal. If you own a shod horse (& are physically capable) you should know how to protect the horse from the damage that shoes can cause when loose/caught/twisted. Heck working on cattle stations we had to shoe (& remove) our own band of horses, trying to get a vet or a farrier out there was near impossible. It just meant that everyone had to know more and do better when it came to prevention and first aid.

 

[Ambers Echo]

A question for those saying a yard owner should remove - if it went wrong and the damage was worse as a result would you hold them responsible?

If YO said I'm no expert but I can give it a go and then used appropriate tools and a sensible approach then no I would not hold her responsble if it went wrong. If she went at it with a slege hammer and broke his leg trying then yes, probably!

well it's a bit of a hypothetical situation, because I would expect someone attempting to remove a shoe to be capable of doing so competently. so I'd turn it all around and say the question for me is more about what skills should someone make sure they have, before offering full livery. because in offering full care, you are sort of saying you are capable of looking after someone else's horse to an excellent standard.

I agree with this. I know that some DIY livery owners are not horsey. They are farmers with land or whatever. But if you are offering full livery I think you should have skills in first aid, fencing, illness management, pasture management and about 100 other things. Including emergency shoe removal. And I imagine that emergency shoe removal would be covered by insurance anyway as the rules allow non farriers to remove shoes in an emergency.

As far as being risk averse goes - a lot of poeple feel that doing nothing is safer for them than trying to help and inadvertently making it worse. But I would be more likely to hold the YO responsible for failing to provide appropriate care to my horse than for making an honest mistake.

 

[Griffin]

To me, even if my horse was on DIY, if YO sees a horse in distress/pain they should do something about it (either ring the owner and/vet/farrier if necessary). Leaving any animal or person in distress for longer than necessary is never OK.

Would I expect a YO to remove a shoe? It depends on the YO and how capable they are. My YO has the tools to remove a shoe and I have seen them do it in an emergency. If they didn't feel able to remove a shoe, I would expect them to get the farrier out or vet if they felt it was needed ASAP.

 

[stormox]

No. In that situation I wouldn't expect a YO to remove a shoe, however competent. I would expect them to phone owner, and for owner to have left farrier/vet phone number with YO in case of emergency and if YO didn't manage to get hold of owner to phone YO's farrier herself.

 

[Ambers Echo]

It's kept a conversation going anyway. Thanks for all your thoughts. Very interesting how people have such totally different views. Who would be a YO.....

 

[milliepops]

yup interesting thread

 

[WelshD]

I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone, perhaps its just as well I'm not on a livery yard because I would expect that on a full livery yard the YO should be competent enough to remove a shoe or have enough decisiveness to deal with the situation by getting someone in to sort it after consulting with the horse owner.

If the YO attempts removal (with the blessing of the owner) and things go wrong then it needs to be agreed whether its just one of those things or whether the YO was not competent and exacerbated the situation - this is what YO should have care/custody insurance for.

I am constantly amazed by how much horsey people will put up with - full livery is full livery - if the owner chooses not to go to the horse for weeks its care should be consistent and comprehensive if someone is taking money for such a service but likewise as an owner I would expect to pay well for this reassurance.

Kennels, catteries, vets etc simply cant get away with picking and choosing when they are and when they are not responsible for an animal

 

[Auslander]

It's kept a conversation going anyway. Thanks for all your thoughts. Very interesting how people have such totally different views. Who would be a YO.....

Not me!
Oh...wait...!

 

[indie1282]

If YO said I'm no expert but I can give it a go and then used appropriate tools and a sensible approach then no I would not hold her responsble if it went wrong. If she went at it with a slege hammer and broke his leg trying then yes, probably!



I agree with this. I know that some DIY livery owners are not horsey. They are farmers with land or whatever. But if you are offering full livery I think you should have skills in first aid, fencing, illness management, pasture management and about 100 other things. Including emergency shoe removal. And I imagine that emergency shoe removal would be covered by insurance anyway as the rules allow non farriers to remove shoes in an emergency.

As far as being risk averse goes - a lot of poeple feel that doing nothing is safer for them than trying to help and inadvertently making it worse. But I would be more likely to hold the YO responsible for failing to provide appropriate care to my horse than for making an honest mistake.

I think your main problem here is the fact that your YO didn't think it was an issue and that the horse ( in her eyes ) wasn't that lame and could wait until Wednesday.

So now you have lost confidence in her, which is fair enough.

 

[Goldenstar]

I agree the shoe should have been removed as soon as farrier or vet could get to it on the day it happened .
The horse should have been tied up and supervised until someone arrived to remove it .

 

[zandp]

When mine was shod she used to lose shoes / have them twist regularly so I bought a set of tools and got my farrier to show me how to use them. I've mainly been on DIY yards for the last decade but when I was on part livery - full care, no riding - I'd have expected the YO/YM to either remove the shoe or get someone in immediately to do it.

 

[Caol Ila]

My old YO wasn't perfect by any means, but he was pretty handy at removing shoes when need be, and he had a set of tools on hand. The last time my horse wore back shoes, she twisted one so the clip was jabbing into her foot, and she was hopping around on three legs. I found her, and YO immediately removed shoe. Horse still got an abcess. I've seen him whip off shoes that were twisted and hanging off -- basically anything that was likely to cause injury. I've been at numerous barns, all offering full livery, and they all had someone on staff who was comfortable removing shoes in an emergency.

If I wasn't around, I would expect the YO to deal with a twisted shoe *immediately,* one way or another, not wait until Wednesday.

 

[Gloi]

I would not necessarily expect a yard owner to remove a shoe, though I'm pretty sure mine could. I would expect them to get a farrier or other capable person to the horse asap to do it and would not be pleased if they didn't.
Fortunately I have not used shoes for a long time but I would also expect the YO to deal with any emergency situation without delay.

 

[GoldenWillow]

have found that farriers are happy to show owners how to do it, and advise on a basic couple of tools to make it easier. (and then stand and laugh watching your attempts )

Many years ago my farrier showed me how to remove a shoe in case I ever needed to in an emergency and did laugh at my struggle!

Whilst I do feel a YM of a pro yard offering full livery should be able and happy to remove a shoe in an emergency I can understand their reluctance to do so due to the many reasons mentioned but I would fully expect them to either arrange for a farrier or vet to remove the shoe that day of a horse that was on full livery. A horse with a shoe that has moved and is lame/off on that leg needs the shoe removed as soon as possible.

 

[Nasicus]

I would expect yards that have part and/or full liveries to have the required tools and someone on staff who is capable of removing a shoe, but wouldn't necessarily expect them to remove a shoe unless they have gained express permission to do so from the owner, and it was a dire emergency such as, shoe needs off NOW and failure to do so could result in serious injury or death, and/or a farrier/vet in unable to get there within a reasonable amount of time to do so themselves, and even then only if the shoe-remover is able to do so without risking their own safety.

So a lot of caveats to it, but it is something I would consider as part of essential first aid knowledge and equipment if you own/care for shod horses. Kind of like how many of us have at least a basic understanding of how to perform CPR or use a community Defibrillator. We hope to god we never have to use that knowledge, but it's potentially lifesaving information to have tucked away in your back pocket.

Pure DIY yards I wouldn't expect any particular level of horse knowledge from as they're usually offering just the facilities to keep your horse, and the not the services to provide care. I've been on plenty where the YO's can barely tell the front end from the back Always a nice bonus if the YO knows horses, but never a given nor to be expected!

 

[Tiddlypom]

This is the theory... Sounds easy enough, doesn’t it, written neatly down.

4 steps to take when removing a horse’s shoe
1. In order to remove a horse shoe, you will need a buffer with a blade, plus a mallet — and failing this an adapted buffer with a broad enough surface on the opposite side of the blade in order to use a hammer on this. You will also need a pair of pincers and possibly a rasp. It is sensible for every yard to have this kit.

2. Make sure that both you and the horse are comfortable, standing on level ground and in a sheltered area. The job will be a lot harder — and potentially dangerous — if the horse is jumping around. Wearing a hard hat, face the horse’s quarters and hold up his hoof between your legs as pictured.

3. Find each clench — the tip of the nail — and position the blade of the buffer between it and the hoof wall. Tap the buffer with the mallet to straighten out the hooked nail end. Alternatively, taking the foot forward and positioning it on a stool, rasp off the clench hook, leaving only the straight nail.


4. One at a time, pincer the head of each nail and work it out of the shoe. If you can’t get a grip on a nail head, position the pincer ends around the side of the shoe at the heel, pinch the handles together and rock them away from you. This will bring the shoe away from the foot, freeing stubborn nail heads.

This article was first published in Horse & Hound Ask The Vet, Spring 2014

Having done it myself, it is a lot harder than it sounds, and as has been said upthread, there is a real danger of an amateur getting the shoe half off then the horse snatches the foot away and buggers about sticking clenches and toe clips into its foot.

My hands were shaking with fatigue by the time I’d removed one, even though the horse was perfectly behaved throughout. I did make a neat job, but I was jiggered.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/videos/how-to-videos/remove-horses-shoe-hh-vip-video

 

[ester]

we used a chisel instead of a buffer, it was what we had.

 

[Tiddlypom]

A chisel, a hammer and a pair of pliers for me. Plus a lot of swear words...

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It's not hard given the provisos that you have the proper tools, are shown by an expert and -importantly- you repeat the process several times under supervision so you are practiced enough to be competent.

In an emergency you can also remove the shoe without removing the clenches which makes the whole job quick which is ideal when dealing with a twisted shoe or a shoe caught in a fence (I've had this one, the fence wire was wedged between the shoe and the hoof, the horse was being kept quiet but obviously couldn't be left like that for any length of time). Shoe removed, horse released, emergency over.

Every yard should have the right tools in their first aid kit. Every owner should learn it as part of the basic requirements of owning a shod horse.

Why are people so worried/frightened/reluctant?

 

[DabDab]

Yes I would expect a YO offering a full care service to have someone on hand to remove a compromised shoe in an emergency. In a not quite emergency but still needs sorting situation like the OP I would expect them to either remove if competent or get a professional out pdq to sort it and restrict the horse's movement until they arrived. If i was paying for full care livery i would not expect to have to locate a suitable professional for the YO.

And if my horses had hypothetical shoes and were on full care on a hypothetical livery yard and one of the hypothetical shoes got twisted, no I would not blame the YO for a chunk of hoof coming away with the shoe if they removed it, any more than I would blame a farrier. Firstly because losing chunks of hoof happens sometimes, it's just one of those things, and infinitely preferable to a nail through the sole or frog, and secondly because it's quite hard to pull a chunk off a hoof with a shoe if the foot isn't already compromised.

And in a similar way I would not expect a YO to leave a horse colicking while waiting for a vet to get there, nor take a wait and see approach with a horse that came down with laminitis...etc

 

[Tiddlypom]

How do you remove the shoe without removing the clenches?

I’ve cut the wire on either side of the shoe with wire cutters when a horse has caught its shoe in a fence, then the shoe can come off later.

 

[Ambers Echo]

You clip the tops off with a special tool. Much easier than trying to straighten them. That's what we were planning to do but the shoe was almost off anyway so only needed to clip one.

 

[Tiddlypom]

You clip the nail heads off and leave the clenches in the foot?

 

[Chianti]

I would expect the YO either to be able to remove the shoe or arrange for very fast support from a professional to do the same. I'd also expect to be contacted immediately. Years ago a couple of liveries were turning their horses out and noticed that mine had had half pulled her shoe off ( in walk!). They managed to get it off and I was very grateful or she'd have been walking about on it all day in the field.

 

[Ambers Echo]

No you clip the clenches leaving a straight nail which you pull out with the shoe.

 

[J&S]

To me, the issue is that the horse was "not that lame"........ a horse is either lame or not lame, and the fact it was noticeable should have been enough for the YO/YM/Head Groom to have got a vet or farrier around ASAP! Just because the owner is away and can't see what is happening is no reason to neglect their duties! I have the utmost sympathy for AE and really hope her horse is in top condition in the very near future, if not now.