Yet another delightful rider..... not..... when will this end?

[shortstuff99]

I will probably get stick for this but after some recent personal experience with the actions of pros, and what has come to light in the media, I think there are vanishingly few pros that are actually kind/ethical in their training and treatment of their horses. I'm sure most of them think they're nice but I think the average horsey lay person would be quite shocked with how they train (and what they think is acceptable).

 

[TheMule]

I will probably get stick for this but after some recent personal experience with the actions of pros, and what has come to light in the media, I think there are vanishingly few pros that are actually kind/ethical in their training and treatment of their horses. I'm sure most of them think they're nice but I think the average horsey lay person would be quite shocked with how they train (and what they think is acceptable).

I’m afraid I have come to the same conclusion

 

[Barklands]

The professionals I have spent extended periods of time with (bar one former, now ancient show jumper that regularly used to batter the horses, including the foals - he didn't discriminate) have all treated their horses sympathetically as far as I saw however, I suspect that was just lucky unfortunately It's so tough to make a living from horses that I think a lot of pros treat them as just a commodity.

 

[ramsaybailey]

I will probably get stick for this but after some recent personal experience with the actions of pros, and what has come to light in the media, I think there are vanishingly few pros that are actually kind/ethical in their training and treatment of their horses. I'm sure most of them think they're nice but I think the average horsey lay person would be quite shocked with how they train (and what they think is acceptable).

Completely agree with this. I think there are very very few that train in a way we'd expect them to.

 

[scats]

I will probably get stick for this but after some recent personal experience with the actions of pros, and what has come to light in the media, I think there are vanishingly few pros that are actually kind/ethical in their training and treatment of their horses. I'm sure most of them think they're nice but I think the average horsey lay person would be quite shocked with how they train (and what they think is acceptable).

I have to say I agree with this.
There’s been videos shared on this forum in the past that everyone has been very positive about, and it’s made me uncomfortable. That was when I started to come to the conclusion that I’m far too soft to ever progress further in dressage/riding now. That and the actions of a coach who revealed that some training methods that made me very uncomfortable were taught to her by a highly respected top rider who is considered one of the kind ones.

 

[shortstuff99]

I have to say I agree with this.
There’s been videos shared on this forum in the past that everyone has been very positive about, and it’s made me uncomfortable. That was when I started to come to the conclusion that I’m far too soft to ever progress further in dressage/riding now. That and the actions of a coach who revealed that some training methods that made me very uncomfortable were taught to her by a highly respected top rider who is considered one of the kind ones.

I am the same, I'm obviously not of the right mindset to train in the way I would need to if I wanted to win, and I'm okay with that as I love my horses as their own beings first and foremost.

This was cemented to me very recently when I had paid (a lot) of money for a lesson with a top rider (and one I had respected), who when my horse had got confused and didn't really want to do anymore, was frankly cruel to her. I was devastated, and will never trust pros again unless I know exactly what they do.

 

[tristars]

It's a fallacy to think because they use brutality to get the horse to do what they want, in the way they need to win comps, that you need copy or abandon hopes of advancing your own horses dressage!

Acknowledging others shortcomings can be the first step, it's liberating to step off the accepted route put your horses first and utterly amazing when you progress to a level way above and quite stunning really when you realize if you do it properly you find it's not that difficult actually

Like many things the illusion needs to shatter, and in this case more humility in our approach to the training and use of horses will hopefully be the result

Selecting a horse that is suitable helps, a horse that steps under itself as a new broken will find things easier I don't mean over tracking either, certain balances make canter pirouettes easy etc.

 

[reynold]

It's been going on with the pros for decades - it's not a new thing - and so far it hasn't really been stopped sufficiently for the pros to change their ways.

Being an oldie now I can remember in the 70s a very well thought of top showjumper, Peter Robeson, being accused of rapping. Can't remember if he was suspended at the time but I found this in a press archive from 2014 about him.

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He was an admired rider with a very classical seat and I remember his horses going beautifully (mainly TB types).

It is sickening for me to see, decades later, that nothing has really changed. However now we are in the era of everyone with a smartphone having a video camera I think change is on the way, or at least I hope so....

 

[tristars]

I would say it's worse now


Loads a money involved, bigger set ups

 

[Kaylum]

Having seen a high level bhs instructor who also owns a very high level equestrian centre, beat the hell out of a horse, in the days before video. Telling the owner whose horse it was, what I had seen and not being believed. I had no proof unfortunately.

 

[shortstuff99]

It's a fallacy to think because they use brutality to get the horse to do what they want, in the way they need to win comps, that you need copy or abandon hopes of advancing your own horses dressage!

Acknowledging others shortcomings can be the first step, it's liberating to step off the accepted route put your horses first and utterly amazing when you progress to a level way above and quite stunning really when you realize if you do it properly you find it's not that difficult actually

Like many things the illusion needs to shatter, and in this case more humility in our approach to the training and use of horses will hopefully be the result

Selecting a horse that is suitable helps, a horse that steps under itself as a new broken will find things easier I don't mean over tracking either, certain balances make canter pirouettes easy etc.

Yes definitely, we are continuing on our dressage (and jumping) journey but I will train in a way I (and my horses) are comfortable with and if that takes decades then so be it, at least I will be happy with my choices

 

[reynold]

Another factor in the abuse cycle is that people buy a horse to do xyz activity and persist in trying to carry on doing that activity and training for it irrespective of whether the horse actually wants to do it.

I used to breed sports ponies and whilst I bred for a certain activity when it came down to it, with both the ponies and my own riding horses, I only pursued the activities that my horses were comfortable and willing to do.

I bred a lovely pony and she would do everything anyone could want - except that she wouldn't showjump. She'd xc, show, dressage, ponyclub, pony race but not showjump. A different owner could/would have forced her into that as she'd have made a wonderful pony eventer but I wouldn't do that to her.

I wonder if some of the 'forcing' abuse is down to pros (and others) trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Just because a horse is bred for xyz job (dressage/sj/racing) it doesn't mean that it's willing to do that job.

 

[Trot_on]

I will probably get stick for this but after some recent personal experience with the actions of pros, and what has come to light in the media, I think there are vanishingly few pros that are actually kind/ethical in their training and treatment of their horses. I'm sure most of them think they're nice but I think the average horsey lay person would be quite shocked with how they train (and what they think is acceptable).

Agreed - sadly.

 

[Trot_on]

Another factor in the abuse cycle is that people buy a horse to do xyz activity and persist in trying to carry on doing that activity and training for it irrespective of whether the horse actually wants to do it.

I used to breed sports ponies and whilst I bred for a certain activity when it came down to it, with both the ponies and my own riding horses, I only pursued the activities that my horses were comfortable and willing to do.

I bred a lovely pony and she would do everything anyone could want - except that she wouldn't showjump. She'd xc, show, dressage, ponyclub, pony race but not showjump. A different owner could/would have forced her into that as she'd have made a wonderful pony eventer but I wouldn't do that to her.

I wonder if some of the 'forcing' abuse is down to pros (and others) trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Just because a horse is bred for xyz job (dressage/sj/racing) it doesn't mean that it's willing to do that job.

Yes this ^^ the amount of clinics I've been to where the trainer asks 'so what do you do with your horse' and they seem perplexed when the reply is 'well, whatever they enjoy and are comfortable doing!' - if they're enjoying their flatwork we do that, if they're enjoying jumping we do that and the second they feel like they're not enjoying it as much, we stop.

I was talking to a friend who lives in Sweden with her horses and she said that retirement isn't really a thing over there which surprised me.

Our expectations of horses are so high... we don't expect any other pet or even human to do what we expect them to do and not react. And as soon as the horse can't do the job needed or the rider wants to do more they just sell it on like it's a piece of kit in their sports bag. It makes me so sad. I get that they're expensive and some people literally only have them as 'sports equipment' but it's almost like we they have to do a job to justify their cost... when we choose to spend the money on them.

 

[SpeedyPony]

Yes this ^^ the amount of clinics I've been to where the trainer asks 'so what do you do with your horse' and they seem perplexed when the reply is 'well, whatever they enjoy and are comfortable doing!' - if they're enjoying their flatwork we do that, if they're enjoying jumping we do that and the second they feel like they're not enjoying it as much, we stop.

I was talking to a friend who lives in Sweden with her horses and she said that retirement isn't really a thing over there which surprised me.

Our expectations of horses are so high... we don't expect any other pet or even human to do what we expect them to do and not react. And as soon as the horse can't do the job needed or the rider wants to do more they just sell it on like it's a piece of kit in their sports bag. It makes me so sad. I get that they're expensive and some people literally only have them as 'sports equipment' but it's almost like we they have to do a job to justify their cost... when we choose to spend the money on them.

I don't think there's a problem with people moving on horses that just don't enjoy the job they were bought for, as long as they're sound and willing in another discipline or at a certain level- not everyone can afford to keep multiple horses and if you can sell your horse to someone who has a job for the horse he'll enjoy, everyone benefits.
The major problem I see is the money at high levels- for most of us, the above works well, as we're buying horses that are bred for more general work, so they have a similar value regardless of discipline. However, if you've just spent six figures on a dressage bred horse only to discover he doesn't like dressage or even being in a school, but loves to hack and hunt, his value will drop significantly as most people that want a hunter will not care about his bloodlines and certainly won't spend 100k on one when they could get a perfectly nice one for 10k.
That's not taking into account the extreme breeding that makes some of these horses unsuited to other work- I know there's an argument that to be competitive now they have to be specialists, but then again there are highly athletic breeds, like the thoroughbred, that can still turn their hooves to a range of disciplines.

 

[LEC]

I call a lot of professional riders unprofessionals. I am also coming to the conclusion that 99% do not do an ethical or good job. I am lucky as do know some good ones I would send a horse to but they are friends. Most just horrify me and actually I find that really depressing.

A horse I have known its whole life as bred by the owner I ride for was sold as a yearling to a clueless woman. It’s literally bounced around unprofessional to unprofessional for years. The ultimate issue is it’s not a dr horse as 60% Tb but has a well known dr horse stallion so it’s round peg/square hole as not a dr horse. They took her money while it got 57% at elementary as owner wouldn’t listen and the unprofessionals didn’t try very hard.

It’s now been sold to a dressage rider in lincs who is another unprofessional despite being a BD coach. Firstly he bangs on about the shite that is ponease and secondly every photo is him being rammed into a too small saddle with horses behind the vertical. The horse has been out of work for 6 months as in not touched. It has navicular and yet photos plastered over the pros page of it being worked in an arena in an outline. It needed to do 12 weeks basic work… it will be sold to some unsuspecting sap because it’s going ‘so well’.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

I call a lot of professional riders unprofessionals. I am also coming to the conclusion that 99% do not do an ethical or good job. I am lucky as do know some good ones I would send a horse to but they are friends. Most just horrify me and actually I find that really depressing.

A horse I have known its whole life as bred by the owner I ride for was sold as a yearling to a clueless woman. It’s literally bounced around unprofessional to unprofessional for years. The ultimate issue is it’s not a dr horse as 60% Tb but has a well known dr horse stallion so it’s round peg/square hole as not a dr horse. They took her money while it got 57% at elementary as owner wouldn’t listen and the unprofessionals didn’t try very hard.

It’s now been sold to a dressage rider in lincs who is another unprofessional despite being a BD coach. Firstly he bangs on about the shite that is ponease and secondly every photo is him being rammed into a too small saddle with horses behind the vertical. The horse has been out of work for 6 months as in not touched. It has navicular and yet photos plastered over the pros page of it being worked in an arena in an outline. It needed to do 12 weeks basic work… it will be sold to some unsuspecting sap because it’s going ‘so well’.

I know who you mean but not sure which horse!! A chestnut?

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Yes this ^^ the amount of clinics I've been to where the trainer asks 'so what do you do with your horse' and they seem perplexed when the reply is 'well, whatever they enjoy and are comfortable doing!' - if they're enjoying their flatwork we do that, if they're enjoying jumping we do that and the second they feel like they're not enjoying it as much, we stop.

I was talking to a friend who lives in Sweden with her horses and she said that retirement isn't really a thing over there which surprised me.

Our expectations of horses are so high... we don't expect any other pet or even human to do what we expect them to do and not react. And as soon as the horse can't do the job needed or the rider wants to do more they just sell it on like it's a piece of kit in their sports bag. It makes me so sad. I get that they're expensive and some people literally only have them as 'sports equipment' but it's almost like we they have to do a job to justify their cost... when we choose to spend the money on them.

I paid good money to take part in an eventing clinic. It was over a weekend. The trainer had to do things a certain way and would not deviate despite it not being the right way for some horses. We had a goal setting talk. She went round the table and asked everyone what their goals were. Most were unrealistic judging by what I'd seen but it's good to have goals to improve. Mine was to have a happy sound horse. From that moment her attitude towards me totally changed. It's as if I wasn't there. We had a dressage session that was filmed and marked, then we ran through it again on video when everyone had had a turn. A thunder storm started just before my session. I hadn't tacked up as it was really bad. She made me tack up and get on with it in the storm. Luckily it went well!! There was also a couple of trainers / judges that were on this clinic that were quite frankly rude. They have since run clinics near me but I refuse to give them my money!! I have given up now trying to find anyone to teach me and we now just bumble along in our own way but we are happy!

 

[eahotson]

I paid good money to take part in an eventing clinic. It was over a weekend. The trainer had to do things a certain way and would not deviate despite it not being the right way for some horses. We had a goal setting talk. She went round the table and asked everyone what their goals were. Most were unrealistic judging by what I'd seen but it's good to have goals to improve. Mine was to have a happy sound horse. From that moment her attitude towards me totally changed. It's as if I wasn't there. We had a dressage session that was filmed and marked, then we ran through it again on video when everyone had had a turn. A thunder storm started just before my session. I hadn't tacked up as it was really bad. She made me tack up and get on with it in the storm. Luckily it went well!! There was also a couple of trainers / judges that were on this clinic that were quite frankly rude. They have since run clinics near me but I refuse to give them my money!! I have given up now trying to find anyone to teach me and we now just bumble along in our own way but we are happy!

Finding a good trainer is a nightmare.I have one now but had to kiss a fair few frogs before.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I chiefly ride to compete. I do all sports to compete. It's not even as if I am any good at any of them! I just love the thrill of competition. There is simply nothing like the buzz I get from competing that I can replicate in any other way. And I'd give up riding altogether rather than give up competing, should competition ever be banned. I don't think moving on a horse who is not a good match is a bad thing to do. Lottie's new owner is perfect for her and the stuff they are doing together is exacty what they both want and need.

But I don't think competitive ambitions mean you have to be hard/harsh/unfair on horses. I might be naive but I meet trainers through camps, some of whom are very good pro riders in their own right. (I do some performance camps each year where I use top level trainers). I genuinley think the people I use in camps train sympathetically and it did not prevent them getting to the upper levels eventing. I don't know what goes on behind closed doors but there are enough trainers who are harsh and unsympathetic just in how they teach, so there must be some correlation between how they teach and how the train their own horses.

Most of the trainers I have trained with over the years since first getting Amber are what I would consider 'old school' - harsh, unforgiving, quick to blame the horse, ride firmly. Lots of 'don't let her take the piss, get after her' type stuff. Lots of using a bitting arms race to solve problems and other short cuts.

I say 'old school' for lack of a better phrase but it's nothing to do with the age of the trainer, or the tradition they come from. But it's a dominance/submission mindset. Not a trust/partnership one. A focus on obedience as opposed to willingness, and insistence on obedience rather than trying to work out why the horse might be having trouble. I shudder now thinking back to some of the people I used in the early years of Amber, but I just did not know any better and I did not trust my own judgements back then. But those trainers are all still out there, and still popular.

However, over time I have slowly found people who train differently to that. And now have trainers I really trust. Chiefly Joe of course. Who is not a top level competition rider but is with Sophie Wells who very much is, and I cannot believe for a second they would take in horses to train together if they did not share an ethos. In fact he's told me they do. So I am not sure it's really true that you can't get to the top without being harsh on horses. But you really do need to pick wisely.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Finding a good trainer is a nightmare.I have one now but had to kiss a fair few frogs before.

There are only 2 I would now consider lessons with but I can never get a lesson booked as they are always sooooo busy! The up side is that it saves me money!

 

[Cragrat]

Finding a good trainer is a nightmare.I have one now but had to kiss a fair few frogs before.

Me too! I am very lucky to have a found/built a nice little 'support team' of trainers in flat and jump - all between 1 and 2 hours away, some incredibly busy with their own riding so not always available, but 100% worth the wait and the journey . Each complements the other in training style, always put the horse first, and are not about quick fixes. I rejected many a highly recommended trainer before finding the right ones.

 

[humblepie]

I worked for an Olympic eventer in the 90s. Was lovely relaxed atmosphere and horses ridden nicely. Had horse in pro showing yard, no qualms whatsoever. Lots of turnout. No gadgets just sympathetically ridden and schooled properly. Dressage stay away clinic at top yard made me cringe and would never go back there. There are good people but there are ones you wouldn’t want on your horse.

 

[Reacher]

Me too! I am very lucky to have a found/built a nice little 'support team' of trainers in flat and jump - all between 1 and 2 hours away, some incredibly busy with their own riding so not always available, but 100% worth the wait and the journey . Each complements the other in training style, always put the horse first, and are not about quick fixes. I rejected many a highly recommended trainer before finding the right ones.

Could I ask which jumping instructors you recommend? (PM if you prefer). I believe we are in the same county though probably different ends.
I have stopped lessons with a well renowned BS/BE instructor as they weren’t working for me and seem to have tried all the local trainers! For dressage Ive been going to clinics with a classical trainer , travels up for monthly clinics

 

[Cragrat]

For dressage, Sam Jimmison and Tracey Fox. For jumping, Sam, Lucinda Atkinson and Victoria Baker

 

[BACR]

I paid good money to take part in an eventing clinic. It was over a weekend. The trainer had to do things a certain way and would not deviate despite it not being the right way for some horses. We had a goal setting talk. She went round the table and asked everyone what their goals were. Most were unrealistic judging by what I'd seen but it's good to have goals to improve. Mine was to have a happy sound horse. From that moment her attitude towards me totally changed. It's as if I wasn't there. We had a dressage session that was filmed and marked, then we ran through it again on video when everyone had had a turn. A thunder storm started just before my session. I hadn't tacked up as it was really bad. She made me tack up and get on with it in the storm. Luckily it went well!! There was also a couple of trainers / judges that were on this clinic that were quite frankly rude. They have since run clinics near me but I refuse to give them my money!! I have given up now trying to find anyone to teach me and we now just bumble along in our own way but we are happy!

I had a very similar experience as you at an eventing clinic. One of the trainers was fantastic and my sessions for day 1 and 2 were with her and it was lovely. Day 3 was a 'have a go' event day, which the nice trainer wasn't there for. The other trainer (who's previously ridden at 5 star, albeit years ago when it was 4 star) was awful, it was all 'get after him, kick him, make him do it'. This is not my way and it upset me a lot, I had an argument with her as she wouldn't take a filler out. It was only the second time my horse had seen a filler and I wanted to give him a good experience, I stood my ground and refused to do anything until she took the filler out. I'm lucky that my lad is so willing but he just had a little wobble and that's ok, he knows that and I'm not willing to compromise the way I work with him. The dressage judge was also horrible, not constructive at all, just downright rude and basically just psychological abuse (well known in our area for this behaviour). I almost took him home before the xc as I was so upset. My other half coaxed me to just have a go and pull up if we were not having a nice time, but thankfully my lovely boy took us round like a pro and looked after us both beautifully, he saved the day! Trainers really need to understand that most of us amateurs are doing this to enjoy ourselves, especially as the camp was aimed at green horses. I won't ever go back to those trainers/judges, I don't pay a whole ton of money to get told to abuse my horse and suffer psychological abuse myself!!

 

[Reacher]

For dressage, Sam Jimmison and Tracey Fox. For jumping, Sam, Lucinda Atkinson and Victoria Baker

Thankyou

 

[Barklands]

I had a very similar experience as you at an eventing clinic. One of the trainers was fantastic and my sessions for day 1 and 2 were with her and it was lovely. Day 3 was a 'have a go' event day, which the nice trainer wasn't there for. The other trainer (who's previously ridden at 5 star, albeit years ago when it was 4 star) was awful, it was all 'get after him, kick him, make him do it'. This is not my way and it upset me a lot, I had an argument with her as she wouldn't take a filler out. It was only the second time my horse had seen a filler and I wanted to give him a good experience, I stood my ground and refused to do anything until she took the filler out. I'm lucky that my lad is so willing but he just had a little wobble and that's ok, he knows that and I'm not willing to compromise the way I work with him. The dressage judge was also horrible, not constructive at all, just downright rude and basically just psychological abuse (well known in our area for this behaviour). I almost took him home before the xc as I was so upset. My other half coaxed me to just have a go and pull up if we were not having a nice time, but thankfully my lovely boy took us round like a pro and looked after us both beautifully, he saved the day! Trainers really need to understand that most of us amateurs are doing this to enjoy ourselves, especially as the camp was aimed at green horses. I won't ever go back to those trainers/judges, I don't pay a whole ton of money to get told to abuse my horse and suffer psychological abuse myself!!

Well done you - I think it is so hard to stand up to a pro if you disagree with their method

 

[shortstuff99]

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[shortstuff99]

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