Another fatal dog attack

[ycbm]

I'm sorry that you need to ask.

Canine enrichment. Some dogs like to play with a ball or frisbee. They can't do that in a muzzle.

Of course they can just not in a public place. I can't canter my horse around a park even though I'd like to, I have to pay to do that somewhere else. Why is it diffeent for a dog owner?

Not to mention that there are lots of dog owners having to pay to use safe places now because their dogs aren't safe in public.

Stress relief. Other dogs like to carry a ball and gently bite on it. Think of it like a baby with a dummy. Can't do that in a muzzle.

If a dog is that stressed surely it shouldn't be out in public?

Some dog/dog interactions would be hampered by a muzzle.

Not to any significant extent that I can see. And certainly not to any extent that outweighs the benefit to the public of removing the dog's ability to bite.


I see dogs in muzzles often. I've never seen one that looks bothered by it.

 

[JJS]

If it is genuinely impossible to legally define the dangerous ones, then when out in public, yes.

What harm does it do the dog?
.

I think there’s a lot of hypocrisy surrounding this. The majority of people on here have argued that muzzling dogs and expecting them to be on lead their entire lives isn’t remotely detrimental - and yet, I think a lot of people would be unwilling to do it to their dogs. I know some do and have no issue with it, but that’s definitely not the case for everyone.

As I’ve said numerous times, I personally don’t agree with the widening of BSL, but I also don’t think people can have it both ways. If you wouldn’t want it done to your breed, then that’s a clear acknowledgement that you can see why XL Bully owners wouldn’t want it for their dogs either. (That’s aside from the wider issues surrounding an inability to insure XL Bullies in the event of them needing medical treatment and issues around housing for those who rent either privately or from the council.)

So, while I don’t agree with the ban, and personally don’t want my medium to large-size dogs to be muzzled or otherwise restricted, it either isn’t harmful or detrimental to any breed or it is.

 

[skinnydipper]

I think there’s a lot of hypocrisy surrounding this. The majority of people on here have argued that muzzling dogs and expecting them to be on lead their entire lives isn’t remotely detrimental - and yet, I think a lot of people would be unwilling to do it to their dogs. I know some do and have no issue with it, but that’s definitely not the case for everyone.

As I’ve said numerous times, I personally don’t agree with the widening of BSL, but I also don’t think people can have it both ways. If you wouldn’t want it done to your breed, then that’s a clear acknowledgement that you can see why XL Bully owners wouldn’t want it for their dogs either. (That’s aside from the wider issues surrounding an inability to insure XL Bullies in the event of them needing medical treatment and issues around housing for those who rent either privately or from the council.)

So, while I don’t agree with the ban, and personally don’t want my medium to large-size dogs to be muzzled or otherwise restricted, it either isn’t harmful or detrimental to any breed or it is.

Dogs who are a risk to others should be muzzled.

 

[skinnydipper]

Of course they can just not in a public place. I can't canter my horse around a park even though I'd like to, I have to pay to do that somewhere else. Why is it diffeent for a dog owner?

Not to mention that there are lots of dog owners having to pay to use safe places now because their dogs aren't safe in public.



If a dog is that stressed surely it shouldn't be out in public?



Not to any significant extent that I can see. And certainly not to any extent that outweighs the benefit to the public of removing the dog's ability to bite.


I see dogs in muzzles often. I've never seen one that looks bothered by it.

It is apparent that you don't have a good grasp of dog behaviour.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Bit annoying to be schooled on dog behaviour by someone who doesn't own a dog. My old dog carries a ball everywhere, at all times. Without it, he's not likely to cause another dog or human harm, but he would hunt out a bottle or can to hold and potentially injure himself, he's cut himself multiple times trying to hold sharp things. He'd be pretty stressy/antsy/whiny in a muzzle.

 

[JJS]

Dogs who are a risk to others should be muzzled.

Of course they should, but that applies regardless of breed, and I remain unconvinced that every XL Bully out there is a risk to others. My comment was about the hypocrisy of saying that it’s not detrimental when talking about one breed but that it is when referring to others.

 

[skinnydipper]

Of course they should, but that applies regardless of breed, and I remain unconvinced that every XL Bully out there is a risk to others. My comment was about the hypocrisy of saying that it’s not detrimental when talking about one breed but that it is when referring to others.

If I had a dog that found itself on a banned breed list it wouldn't be a problem to me to register the dog, spay/neuter, undergo a temperament test, leash in public and wear a muzzle

Fortunately I don't have a banned breed but if I thought she was a danger to others she would be muzzled. She isn't.

Nor does she play with or like to carry a ball. But there are dogs that do.

How many breeds are there that fall into the large dog category that would have to be muzzled unnecessarily?

 

[cauda equina]

Of course they should, but that applies regardless of breed, and I remain unconvinced that every XL Bully out there is a risk to others. My comment was about the hypocrisy of saying that it’s not detrimental when talking about one breed but that it is when referring to others.

The thing is, it can be very difficult - or impossible, even for their owners - to identify which XLBs present a danger to others until it's too late
Are a few maulings or fatalities a reasonable price for other people or dogs to pay for owners who don't want to muzzle their bullies?

 

[ycbm]

Bit annoying to be schooled on dog behaviour by someone who doesn't own a dog.

I've not tried to school you on anything, and I am always open to be educated on dog matters by dog experts. I don't deserve that snippy comment.

I don't understand why your dog couldn't be trained to accept a muzzle and would be interested in knowing that.
.

 

[I'm Dun]

Fortunately I don't have a banned breed but if I thought she was a danger to others she would be muzzled. She isn't.

The vast majority of people dont think their dog is a risk until after the event though

 

[AmyMay]

I've not tried to school you on anything, and I am always open to be educated on dog matters by dog experts. I don't deserve that snippy comment.

I don't understand why your dog couldn't be trained to accept a muzzle and would be interested in knowing that.
.

Why would you muzzle a large breed dog that possesses no threat to others? Ie the breed is recognised as docile.

Ridiculous

 

[skinnydipper]

The vast majority of people dont think their dog is a risk until after the event though

So you think all dogs should be muzzled, including your own?

 

[CorvusCorax]

I've not tried to school you on anything, and I am always open to be educated on dog matters by dog experts. I don't deserve that snippy comment.

I don't understand why your dog couldn't be trained to accept a muzzle and would be interested in knowing that.
.

I don't really see the point when he's nearly 13 and doesn't need to wear one.

ETA he's passed around 20 impartiality/temperament tests with humans and other dogs.

 

[I'm Dun]

So you think all dogs should be muzzled, including your own?

Actually, I'm muzzle training mine as we speak. The youngests prey drive is very strong and hes taken to catching and killing rabbits and squirrels far too often and I'm aware that predatory drift can kick in with a strong prey drive, so they are both going to be muzzled when out in future. The likelihood of anything ever happening is tiny, but I can reduce it to zero with muzzles.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Have some posters just done a complete about turn re muzzling in public?

To hell with those who are genuinely frightened of large unmuzzled off lead dogs?

I am disappointed in the scornful way that a non dog owning poster‘s concerns have been rubbished.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Have some posters just done a complete about turn re muzzling in public?

To hell with those who are genuinely frightened of large unmuzzled off lead dogs?

I don't know if that was aimed at me or not (I genuinely can't remember ) but my dogs are never off lead in public, mainly because of their breed and public perception, I don't want people to be frightened by my dogs. My dog holding a ball is pretty much the same as muzzling anyway, he hasn't dropped it even when being leapt over/harangued by other dogs.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I don't know if that was aimed at me or not (I genuinely can't remember ) but my dogs are never off lead in public, mainly because of their breed and public perception, I don't want people to be frightened by my dogs. My dog holding a ball is pretty much the same as muzzling anyway, he hasn't dropped it even when being leapt over/harangued by other dogs.

Ball is life and life is ball.

 

[ycbm]

Why would you muzzle a large breed dog that possesses no threat to others? Ie the breed is recognised as docile.

Ridiculous

I said only if it was genuinely impossible to frame a law to distinguish between dogs that are and are not a threat.

And I said it in the context of an alternative to banning each successive dangerous breed.

.

 

[splashgirl45]

We already have a law against our of control dogs which has not been enforced so I doubt the police will be able to enforce the new ban.. I would like a crackdown on all dog breeders as there are now so many since the lockdown cashing in on poodle crosses etc to the detriment of the temperament of the dogs. I think XL bullies have a small gene pool so that could impact on temperament. Quite a few of the serious XL bully attacks have been in the home and going from clips in the media some owners seem to be lacking in common sense by allowing them to be so close to young children and babies, any sensible dog owner knows that any dog whatever size can cause bad injuries to a child so children shouldn’t be allowed to jump all over them or pull them around.. these people need educating and I think it could be done on tv and social media but the gov won’t do anything like that so we are stuck with the ban which is unlikely to work

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Wasn't it an Irish wolfhound in the news about severely biting a small child recently? Any dog, regardless of size, should be muzzled should it be likely to attack another dog. I don't think muzzling every dog is appropriate. It would distress many of them and is unnecessary in the majority of cases. Our local woods has a notice re muzzling and keeping on lead dangerous dogs and owners tend to adhere to this, at least the onlead bit, rarely see muzzles bar one dog walker who walks a poo eating terrier.

 

[SilverLinings]

The final pictures they showed of William showed that his eyes had changed, he no longer looked a 'kind' dog but one I would have been very wary of. When they were showing him being all sweet and playful he was still very young and they seem to change as they mature. Even with correct upbringing and training there have been cases of them turning without warning. I hate to demonise any breed but these scare me rigid.

Considering William ended up at the rescue at a young age and there was no mention of him coming from an abusive home (although I realise he may have done) he had a much better life and education than a lot of XLBs (and other breeds too) in private hands. Rescues are busy places and the dogs don't have such a close bond with staff as with an owner, but rescues provide correct feeding, comfortable and suitable housing, adequate exercise, training and calm human:dog interactions, which is a much better environment for the dog than a lot of private homes. Unlike in some family homes he wasn't exposed to lack of exercise, being goaded and chased by young children, being ignored, not being exercised, living in an environment where there is shouting/aggression shown by the humans.

Considering all of that it is very concerning that he still developed aggressive behaviour that was worrying enough for him to be PTS. If the stable, consistent environment, and regular training and correct human interactions offered by an experienced rescue centre can't ensure these dogs are safe family pets then the breed certainly is dangerous on the whole, and it is not all down to the owners (although some don't help).

This is only one dog, but if there have been many other similar cases in rescues (young dogs with ok backgrounds turning aggressive) then I don't see how XLBs can ever be safe for most of the public to own. There have been other posts (with links) pointing to the liklihood of there being a genetic component, and as the breed seems to have a lot of dogs being related to the same small pool of individuals if there is a genetic predisposition to aggression then a large % of XLBs are likely to be affected.

As @splashgirl45 has just posted (and has been discussed before), controlling breeding would help, as I expect the breeders who have now moved on from XLBs to Ovcharkas and Kangols etc will again use a small initial breeding pool, and not take the trouble to stop breeding from individuals with behavioural problems. Or they will actively breed from the aggressive ones.

Horse breeding was heavily controlled by the government in Britain for several centuries (to breed out weakness and weediness with the aim to ensure that if war broke out there were enough suitable mounts and draught horses to requisition from the general population. The HIS was the end of this ideal) so it is possible, but I can't see a modern gov't going for it.

Sadly I think the ban will result in another breed being bred to fill the niche of 'aggressive status dog', but is is likely this would have happened anyway when the fashion for XLBs waned. It would be better if there was legislation preventing breeding for certain temperaments and physical characteristics, but I have no idea how that would be in any way possible to frame.

 

[marmalade76]

I'd have no problem muzzling my dog in public, she doesn't play fetch or carry things, ever, and it would stop her eating stuff she shouldn't. My dog is rarely anywhere public though.

 

[skinnydipper]

The police will not have the rescources to seize 1000s of dogs and the courts will not be abe to process it.

Are you saying that 1000s of XL bully owners are not going to comply with the requirements?

This is what I can't get my head round. Why would 1000s of people who claim to love their dog risk having it seized, to at best languish in police kennels for months, at worst PTS.

 

[rabatsa]

For the last 20 years all my dogs have been muzzle trained. The retired racing greyhounds come trained and it has been so useful that I trained my GSD from a young age. I use the muzzle instead of a cone after oopsies as well.

 

[skinnydipper]

What harm does it do the dog?
.

Some dog/dog interactions would be hampered by a muzzle

Not to any significant extent that I can see.

I was busy yesterday, you know how it is when you’re multi tasking – writing Christmas cards, making flax bread, dipping into the forum now and again

Anyway as no-one has stepped up to help you with this in the meantime I’ll give it a go now.

Dogs communicate through body language using their whole body: ears, eyes, body freeze, breathing, tail, hair, posture , facial expression, muzzle, whiskers and mouth.

Mouth. What is the position of the lips are they puckered, relaxed or tense, is the mouth open or closed, are the teeth covered. The corners of the mouth are they pulled back and tight or forward into a C. Is the dog yawning, lip licking or tongue flicking.

Dogs also lick each others mouths to show friendliness, affection or deference. I’ll give you an example. We used to see a labradoodle, he was frightened of my dog and when he saw her would turn and go the other way (she is big and some dogs can find her size intimidating). Gradually without anybody pushing or forcing the situation he came to realise she was no threat and would come to greet her and they would play. When he greeted her he would reach up and lick her mouth.


I hope that helps.

 

[Indy]

Bandit was in the vets yesterday morning waiting for x-rays, there were two bullys in there going in for neutering. One was older and obviously knew his destiny because he was terrified, the other one was oblivious and bouncing around like Tigger, hopefully the responsible folks will outweigh the rubbish ones.

Bandit was the one who had to be muzzled.

 

[ycbm]

I was busy yesterday, you know how it is when you’re multi tasking – writing Christmas cards, making flax bread, dipping into the forum now and again

Anyway as no-one has stepped up to help you with this in the meantime I’ll give it a go now.

Dogs communicate through body language using their whole body: ears, eyes, body freeze, breathing, tail, hair, posture , facial expression, muzzle, whiskers and mouth.

Mouth. What is the position of the lips are they puckered, relaxed or tense, is the mouth open or closed, are the teeth covered. The corners of the mouth are they pulled back and tight or forward into a C. Is the dog yawning, lip licking or tongue flicking.

Dogs also lick each others mouths to show friendliness, affection or deference. I’ll give you an example. We used to see a labradoodle, he was frightened of my dog and when he saw her would turn and go the other way (she is big and some dogs can find her size intimidating). Gradually without anybody pushing or forcing the situation he came to realise she was no threat and would come to greet her and they would play. When he greeted her he would reach up and lick her lips.


I hope that helps.

Thank you.

So then we are down to the dogs right to communicate unimpeded out in public open spaces, the owner's right not to have to spend time and money taking the dog to a hired venue (if available) and the public's right to walk themselves or their own dogs without fear.

My understanding has increased, thank you, but my opinion hasn't changed.
.

 

[neddy man]

For the last 20 years all my dogs have been muzzle trained. The retired racing greyhounds come trained and it has been so useful that I trained my GSD from a young age. I use the muzzle instead of a cone

There is a retired greyhound rescue centre near us, helpers go and exercise them in the many miles of countryside ALWAYS on the lead and ALL are muzzled, I have never heard anyone approach the walkers complaining about or saying they shouldn't be muzzled it's just understood it's part of their lifestyle, and no one says let them off the lead and run about, when the dbl has been operating for a couple of years will everyone just accept it's a lifestyle acceptance for that type of dog?

 

[ester]

Wasn't it an Irish wolfhound in the news about severely biting a small child recently? Any dog, regardless of size, should be muzzled should it be likely to attack another dog. I don't think muzzling every dog is appropriate. It would distress many of them and is unnecessary in the majority of cases. Our local woods has a notice re muzzling and keeping on lead dangerous dogs and owners tend to adhere to this, at least the onlead bit, rarely see muzzles bar one dog walker who walks a poo eating terrier.

That was the one near me

 

[webble]

I used to volunteer dog walk for a local rescue. Hazard of the job was I got bitten a few times. Jack russell bite was annoying, collie bite stung a bit, the American Bull dog (XL Bullies werent a thing at the time) required stitches, caused my whole leg to go black and I still have the scars now 15ish years later. Its the potential to do damage that is the issue for me so yes I am pro muzzle and would potentially like to include some other breeds in the ban too