Another fatal dog attack

[Cinnamontoast]

A lot of people don't seem to walk their dogs regularly, so I wonder if we see more young ones out and about because they are still a novelty for the owner (and still look 'impressive' rather than slow and docile), but after a few years they just get exercised less and less as the owner gets bored with them.

This seems to apply to all breeds and be much worse since the pandemic puppy buying. There is a lovely Dalmation down the road from me bought during the pandemic; he used to be walked daily, he now rarely goes anywhere other than the garden, and by rarely I mean less than once a month . The owners say that as he doesn't run around like a puppy anymore he clearly doesn't need exercise to 'tire him out' (I think it is actually primarily because they are lazy and don't really care for the dog).

Although as you say @gunnergundog, with XLBs there may well be other issues arising e.g. around owners also discovering they don't have adequate control.

I’ve seen some dogs this week that I’ve never seen before, unusual breeds like a rough, an OES. Maybe they go elsewhere, who can blame them, the mud is crazy, or maybe they just don’t walk their dogs much. Dunno. Luckily, we tend not to get xls up there, but there are a few we see in the park/mini woods up the road.

 

[I'm Dun]

I felt useless, and alarmed and frankly scared by the massive power displayed by the dogs (and yes, I have seen other breeds fight before), and the fact that they were both loose. I would have called the police had the manager not done so immediately, but other that making sure other people stayed away (which the shop staff did a good job of) I'm not sure what else any of us could have done. In retrospect maybe discharging a fire extinguisher at the dogs may have stopped the fight, but I'm not sure whether the very wound-up aggressor would have just turned elsewhere to release it's aggression (or run off around the busy city centre).




Witnessing an attack brought it home violently that if one of these dogs goes for you you have no chance, and probably less than 60 seconds for a member of the public to prevent you dying (and that's only if they have the means, bravery, and it works without the dog turning on them).

A labrador half killed my whippet last week, the only reason hes not dead is the fact I beat the hell out of the lab, got it off him, it got away and got him again, and I threw myself on it. My dog is my best friend and my family. I knew I was risking being bitten and didnt care. I'd have done anything to save him, and it still took everything I had to get that damn dog off. And that was a lab. If it had been an XL bully I'd have had no chance and probably ended up dead. Luckily the lab didnt redirect, it clearly had an issue with dogs but wasnt generally aggressive. I pinned it in a head lock till its owner got it on a lead and took it away. There is no chance that an XL bully wouldnt have redirected on me, even if I'd gotten it off in the first place. It was all so quick as well. I dont think there is anything you could or should have done so dont even think that.

 

[Poing]

Is there any record of the sex and age of the XLBs attacking people? Just wondering if they were always entire males, therefore the “switch” might be hormonal.

 

[SilverLinings]

Is there any record of the sex and age of the XLBs attacking people? Just wondering if they were always entire males, therefore the “switch” might be hormonal.

It would be useful information for owners to have if there is a pattern. If it is hormonal and male then the ban requiring XLBs to be neutered will be a good thing in that respect (as well as preventing breeding of course).

Regarding the incident I posted about at least one of the dogs appeared to be male (the owners were screaming at each other though so it wasn't clear) but I don't know which dog they were referring to (the aggressor or the 'victim').

 

[SilverLinings]

The problem with the ban as with any ban is that the responsible owners will comply/get rid/pts/do a bit of attention seeking and the eff the law types will continue as normal. All in all nothing changes.

I think that a lot of the more casual 'family' type homes (the ones who really did think they were buying a family dog) will obey as they won't want their 'baby' to be pts. There will be some who ignore it, and I expect some puppies will still be bred, but the market will have shrunk drastically so the price will too, driving down the incentive to breed. Although some will ignore the new rules I think that enough will obey to eventually result in a reduction of numbers, which *should* result in a corresponding reduction in the number of attacks.

At this point it's all predictions and supposition though.

ETA sorry, I think the post I've quoted above was in the Bullies in Scotland thread, I'm not sure how I've ended up here?!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I remember hearing that a Pit Bill (PB) will turn on you. My neighbors got one when I was a kid and my parents weren't thrilled and I always remember them saying that, about the turning. However, the neighbor dog turned out to be friendly, rather lazy, and did not show aggression in the time that I knew him. It's something that's been within the PB for a long time though and is obviously in the XL Bully. I mean, these dogs were used in fighting rings.

When I search for dog bite or attack statistics, generally the top 3 are PB, Rottweiler, and GSD. Mastiffs are on the list usually accounting for 3% while PB's are at 65+%.

I mention Mastiffs because I own a Mastiff and have experience with them. IME they give signs before they act, and don't have that "switch" in them. They're generally not turning on people, and IME they attack or demonstrate aggression with reason, not "just because" one day.

I find the Italian Mastiff/Cane Corso to be highly trainable, athletic, and adaptable. They do have a ridiculous bite force though, and sometimes I wonder if there should be some sort of license to own a dog over x amount of psi when it comes to bite force.

I just like intelligent high drive dogs. Possibly because of our lifestyle. We have enough room, and we walk, swim, and hike with the dogs often. I will say that my Lab will go all day long if needed, and I love that. So will the CC, and she's lightyears smarter than the Lab. If you want to hassle me about what type of dog I own, you can do so. Can't say I'll care though.

I absolutely think that neutering, using a muzzle and a leash is 100% a good idea when it comes to the XLB. I hope that everything will be enforced accordingly.

I think that this issue could've been reeled in much earlier if people were actually held accountable for their actions, as a whole in British society, really. The way forward is good, but there needs to be an overall societal shift to taking personal responsibility and being thoughtful. Laws (even outside of dog stuff) need to be enforced. Dog licensing should be a thing, and that needs to be enforced too, which is easier said than done, I know.

It sucks that these dogs are being destroyed and/or dumped. Most decent people hate to see that when it comes to most animals, but they're just too dangerous. We, as f*ckwits...err...humans, created such a beast and are now dealing with the consequences.

I've done exactly nothing to contribute to or support the breeding of the PB or XLB (sorry, I don't see a Mastiff as a XLB), so it wouldn't be fair for me to suffer nor is it fair for someone to die in the jaws of one of these dogs. It's just that it took people too damn long to get fed up. It took too damn long for people the realize that this type of animal has no place as a pet. It took too damn long for people to take responsibility...well, most still have not.

This is a fight that needs to be fought on multiple fronts. The right steps are being taken, but a huge shift needs to take place, even outside of dogs or pet ownership. Society/the general population needs to get its proverbial together.

 

[Gloi]

Police scrambled as 'dangerously out of control' dog bites several people

The dog is believed to have been a Belgian malinois

www.lancs.live

 

[SilverLinings]

I do wonder how long it will be before someone posts on AAD that they've seen an unmuzzled XLB out in public. Either with an owner who doesn't care about their legal responsibilities, or an owner who didn't start muzzle training their dog in advance and after going out for a walk with it on decided to take it off as the dog appeared uncomfortable.

I wouldn't muzzle my (in this case, hypothetical) dogs out of choice but I would do if it was the law and/or there was any possibility the dog might harm a person or animal. I do find it interesting that all the self-professed 'dog loving' XLB owners crying out online that muzzling is cruel have never spoken out in the past about the need for many greyhounds to be muzzled (and on a lead) in public. Equally they don't appear to have noticed that the greyhounds are ok with it and live happy and healthy lives with their responsible owners.

 

[Nasicus]

I do wonder how long it will be before someone posts on AAD that they've seen an unmuzzled XLB out in public. Either with an owner who doesn't care about their legal responsibilities, or an owner who didn't start muzzle training their dog in advance and after going out for a walk with it on decided to take it off as the dog appeared uncomfortable.

I wouldn't muzzle my (in this case, hypothetical) dogs out of choice but I would do if it was the law and/or there was any possibility the dog might harm a person or animal. I do find it interesting that all the self-professed 'dog loving' XLB owners crying out online that muzzling is cruel have never spoken out in the past about the need for many greyhounds to be muzzled (and on a lead) in public. Equally they don't appear to have noticed that the greyhounds are ok with it and live happy and healthy lives with their responsible owners.

There was a piece on the news on Radio 1 earlier, with an XL owner bemoaning the new rules, and how her dog hated the muzzle and was always trying to paw it off. Apparently muzzle training just never occurred to her?
She was also saying how people will struggle to afford the exemption costs seeing as it's just after Christmas, as if the ability to apply for exception hasn't existed since November. Something something leaving it till the last minute something something...

 

[Quigleyandme]

I remember hearing that a Pit Bill (PB) will turn on you. My neighbors got one when I was a kid and my parents weren't thrilled and I always remember them saying that, about the turning. However, the neighbor dog turned out to be friendly, rather lazy, and did not show aggression in the time that I knew him. It's something that's been within the PB for a long time though and is obviously in the XL Bully. I mean, these dogs were used in fighting rings.

When I search for dog bite or attack statistics, generally the top 3 are PB, Rottweiler, and GSD. Mastiffs are on the list usually accounting for 3% while PB's are at 65+%.

I mention Mastiffs because I own a Mastiff and have experience with them. IME they give signs before they act, and don't have that "switch" in them. They're generally not turning on people, and IME they attack or demonstrate aggression with reason, not "just because" one day.

I find the Italian Mastiff/Cane Corso to be highly trainable, athletic, and adaptable. They do have a ridiculous bite force though, and sometimes I wonder if there should be some sort of license to own a dog over x amount of psi when it comes to bite force.

I just like intelligent high drive dogs. Possibly because of our lifestyle. We have enough room, and we walk, swim, and hike with the dogs often. I will say that my Lab will go all day long if needed, and I love that. So will the CC, and she's lightyears smarter than the Lab. If you want to hassle me about what type of dog I own, you can do so. Can't say I'll care though.

I absolutely think that neutering, using a muzzle and a leash is 100% a good idea when it comes to the XLB. I hope that everything will be enforced accordingly.

I think that this issue could've been reeled in much earlier if people were actually held accountable for their actions, as a whole in British society, really. The way forward is good, but there needs to be an overall societal shift to taking personal responsibility and being thoughtful. Laws (even outside of dog stuff) need to be enforced. Dog licensing should be a thing, and that needs to be enforced too, which is easier said than done, I know.

It sucks that these dogs are being destroyed and/or dumped. Most decent people hate to see that when it comes to most animals, but they're just too dangerous. We, as f*ckwits...err...humans, created such a beast and are now dealing with the consequences.

I've done exactly nothing to contribute to or support the breeding of the PB or XLB (sorry, I don't see a Mastiff as a XLB), so it wouldn't be fair for me to suffer nor is it fair for someone to die in the jaws of one of these dogs. It's just that it took people too damn long to get fed up. It took too damn long for people the realize that this type of animal has no place as a pet. It took too damn long for people to take responsibility...well, most still have not.

This is a fight that needs to be fought on multiple fronts. The right steps are being taken, but a huge shift needs to take place, even outside of dogs or pet ownership. Society/the general population needs to get its proverbial together.

I think CC has nailed it in this post. Society in the UK has gone to shite and nothing is done about it. Broken windows policy is demonstrably effective yet in the UK people can burgle and shop lift and the police won't do a thing. Employment law gives idle, ineffective, office time refuseniks carte blanche to flip their employers the finger. Public facing workers are subject to frequent abuse. The societal breakdown list goes on and on. As long as citizens have more rights than responsibilities it will only get worse.

 

[SilverLinings]

There was a piece on the news on Radio 1 earlier, with an XL owner bemoaning the new rules, and how her dog hated the muzzle and was always trying to paw it off. Apparently muzzle training just never occurred to her?
She was also saying how people will struggle to afford the exemption costs seeing as it's just after Christmas, as if the ability to apply for exception hasn't existed since November. Something something leaving it till the last minute something something...

I am fed up with some XLB owners and their supporters making false/ignorant claims about the rules linked to the ban, and with them finding excuses as to why they can't or don't want to comply (I can't afford it, my dog doesn't like a muzzle, it's cruel to keep dogs on a lead etc etc). I am also fed up with the number of times the mainstream media interviews these people and doesn't clarify the situation in their reporting. Funnily enough the gov't didn't kill all the XLBs after midnight on Dec 31st, and yes XLBs will survive being walked in a lead and muzzle. And if you can't afford less than £100 for the certificate* by the end of January (when you've had nearly four months to save for it) then I find it very hard to believe you can afford to be financially responsible for a dog of any size.

I have some sympathy for any experienced, responsible owners of XLBs who already keep their dog safe, well trained and under appropriate supervision, but I am finding it increasingly difficult to find any sympathy for the rest when they don't get their facts right, and aren't prepared to spend time or money on their dog.

*I know neutering is also required, but the deadline for that isn't for another 6 months (12 for younger dogs). And they should already have microchips so no one should be claiming they can't afford that.

 

[SilverLinings]

I think CC has nailed it in this post. Society in the UK has gone to shite and nothing is done about it. Broken windows policy is demonstrably effective yet in the UK people can burgle and shop lift and the police won't do a thing. Employment law gives idle, ineffective, office time refuseniks carte blanche to flip their employers the finger. Public facing workers are subject to frequent abuse. The societal breakdown list goes on and on. As long as citizens have more rights than responsibilities it will only get worse.

I had thought that the pandemic would make people pull together and strengthen society, but since then I actually think adults in the UK have become even worse at taking any responsibility at all for their actions. There are so many stories on the 'irresponsible owners' thread about incidents caused by dogs whose owners appear to think have nothing to do with them. It seems to be widespread though; at work more and more parents seem to take no responsibility for their children's health and wellbeing (e.g. they seem to think it is up to their 3yo to carry out their own physio programme/take medication/wear their splints etc, and nothing to do with the parent if the child doesn't), it is frightening and depressing.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I am fed up with some XLB owners and their supporters making false/ignorant claims about the rules linked to the ban, and with them finding excuses as to why they can't or don't want to comply (I can't afford it, my dog doesn't like a muzzle, it's cruel to keep dogs on a lead etc etc). I am also fed up with the number of times the mainstream media interviews these people and doesn't clarify the situation in their reporting. Funnily enough the gov't didn't kill all the XLBs after midnight on Dec 31st, and yes XLBs will survive being walked in a lead and muzzle. And if you can't afford less than £100 for the certificate* by the end of January (when you've had nearly four months to save for it) then I find it very hard to believe you can afford to be financially responsible for a dog of any size.

I have some sympathy for any experienced, responsible owners of XLBs who already keep their dog safe, well trained and under appropriate supervision, but I am finding it increasingly difficult to find any sympathy for the rest when they don't get their facts right, and aren't prepared to spend time or money on their dog.

*I know neutering is also required, but the deadline for that isn't for another 6 months (12 for younger dogs). And they should already have microchips so no one should be claiming they can't afford that.

Yeah, isn't it interesting the amount of people bemoaning responsible dog ownership. Bugs me that the media feeds the panic and falsehoods, but I'm not surprised.

The fact that people can't afford neutering their dog tells me that they probably can't afford a dog in the first place. Or sometimes, I'm not sure that it's a "can't" as much as it is a "won't" or can't be arsed.

 

[SilverLinings]

Going back to the talk of PTS and the gov't grant, when someone claims the £200 do they have to submit evidence the dog was chipped? I.e. chip number and/or paperwork completed by the vet? If not then it might explain the reports of apparently dumped dogs (and the 'lost' ones reported seen by people on SM), with their owners refusing to pay for PTS (or chipping) themselves.

 

[Birker2020]

Is there any record of the sex and age of the XLBs attacking people? Just wondering if they were always entire males, therefore the “switch” might be hormonal.

List of fatal dog attacks in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Scroll down to the relevant dates.

This article below makes for interesting reading. I'm sorry but when you read statistics like that I honestly don't think their behaviour can be attributed to the way humans have shaped them other than the fact a lot have been closely bred.

I wouldn't say I'm 'happy' that these dogs are being destroyed as any loss of life is sad, but I do feel some relief that the government saw fit to take action as quickly as they have.

UK owners of existing American XL bully dogs face new rules but no cull

Dogs will have to be registered and kept leashed and muzzled in public, says chief veterinary officer

www.theguardian.com

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Going back to the talk of PTS and the gov't grant, when someone claims the £200 do they have to submit evidence the dog was chipped? I.e. chip number and/or paperwork completed by the vet? If not then it might explain the reports of apparently dumped dogs (and the 'lost' ones reported seen by people on SM), with their owners refusing to pay for PTS (or chipping) themselves.

I should think that would be an absolute requirement, possibly why the dog I linked on the other thread was treated the way it was.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

List of fatal dog attacks in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Scroll down to the relevant dates.

This makes interesting reading

UK owners of existing American XL bully dogs face new rules but no cull

Dogs will have to be registered and kept leashed and muzzled in public, says chief veterinary officer

www.theguardian.com

I don’t see sex of dogs on there?

 

[Squeak]

I can't see that this has been mentioned anywhere else:

XL bully found dead with burnt legs and fractured skull in south London

The "shocking discovery" came a day before the introduction of rules to crack down on XL bully dogs.

news.sky.com

I'm not pro the XL Bully but how anyone can do this to any animal is beyond me. How can anyone do this to a dog rather than either take it to a vet to be pts or neuter and muzzle. Unfortunately it will probably add fuel to the anti ban cries by people saying that it was the fault of the ban.

 

[Birker2020]

I don’t see sex of dogs on there?

No sorry it doesn't. I was going to add that but got sidetracked by the other article.

 

[Birker2020]

I can't see that this has been mentioned anywhere else:

XL bully found dead with burnt legs and fractured skull in south London

The "shocking discovery" came a day before the introduction of rules to crack down on XL bully dogs.

news.sky.com

I'm not pro the XL Bully but how anyone can do this to any animal is beyond me. How can anyone do this to a dog rather than either take it to a vet to be pts or neuter and muzzle. Unfortunately it will probably add fuel to the anti ban cries by people saying that it was the fault of the ban.

Absolutely heartbreaking

 

[SilverLinings]

I can't see that this has been mentioned anywhere else:

XL bully found dead with burnt legs and fractured skull in south London

The "shocking discovery" came a day before the introduction of rules to crack down on XL bully dogs.

news.sky.com

I'm not pro the XL Bully but how anyone can do this to any animal is beyond me. How can anyone do this to a dog rather than either take it to a vet to be pts or neuter and muzzle. Unfortunately it will probably add fuel to the anti ban cries by people saying that it was the fault of the ban.

Humans can be vile. See my previous post musing about why some people may dump/kill rather than PTS:

Going back to the talk of PTS and the gov't grant, when someone claims the £200 do they have to submit evidence the dog was chipped? I.e. chip number and/or paperwork completed by the vet? If not then it might explain the reports of apparently dumped dogs (and the 'lost' ones reported seen by people on SM), with their owners refusing to pay for PTS (or chipping) themselves.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I can't see that this has been mentioned anywhere else:

XL bully found dead with burnt legs and fractured skull in south London

The "shocking discovery" came a day before the introduction of rules to crack down on XL bully dogs.

news.sky.com

I'm not pro the XL Bully but how anyone can do this to any animal is beyond me. How can anyone do this to a dog rather than either take it to a vet to be pts or neuter and muzzle. Unfortunately it will probably add fuel to the anti ban cries by people saying that it was the fault of the ban.

I put it on the other thread, post 578 https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/xl-bullies-not-banned-in-scotland.834637/page-20

Heartbreaking, but I think the dog can’t have been registered because otherwise they’d surely have gone for the £200 compensation.

 

[Cortez]

Humans can be vile. See my previous post musing about why some people may dump/kill rather than PTS:

My vet friend who puts down a lot of slow greyhounds always says she'd rather do that than leave them open to the DIY methods that some people prefer to use rather than pay her the very modest, discounted fee her practice charges.

* previously mentioned in reference to the mental health implications of vets having to put down healthy dogs.

ETA - my friend is an extremely mentally robust person and has no problem at all performing a necessary function.

 

[SilverLinings]

My vet friend who puts down a lot of slow greyhounds always says she'd rather do that than leave them open to the DIY methods that some people prefer to use rather than pay her the very modest, discounted fee her practice charges.

* previously mentioned in reference to the mental health implications of vets having to put down healthy dogs.

ETA - my friend is an extremely mentally robust person and has no problem at all performing a necessary function.

I wouldn't be surprised if many/most vets would turn a blind eye to non-chipped XLBs being brought to them for PTS, as you say the alternative could be awful. Not being able to claim the £200 might put some owners off doing the decent thing though.

 

[blackcob]

If the dog has a microchip, the number should be recorded on the form if it is safe and
practical to scan the dog. If it is not safe or practical to scan the dog, or you find the dog is
not microchipped, leave the box blank.

 

[SilverLinings]

Forum won't let me quote your post @blackcob, but I just wanted to say that if the info you posted is correct then how the hell do people 'justify' to themselves dumping or killing dogs?!

ETA bizarre it says get the chip number if 'safe or practical to do so' as surely the vet could just scan the dog after death, which would be safe?

 

[skinnydipper]

I can't remember if anyone has already mentioned this but someone is already having to pts healthy dogs of any breed because there is no room in rescues.

 

[Cortez]

I can't remember if anyone has already mentioned this but someone is already having to pts healthy dogs of any breed because there is no room in rescues.

Yes, that has always been the way, until the "never put a healthy dog down" types came on the scene. I'm not in the UK, but all pounds will put down anything not reclaimed, rehomed or out to rescue after whatever the statutory time is (14 days, I think?).

 

[blackcob]

Forum won't let me quote your post @blackcob, but I just wanted to say that if the info you posted is correct then how the hell do people 'justify' to themselves dumping or killing dogs?!

ETA bizarre it says get the chip number if 'safe or practical to do so' as surely the vet could just scan the dog after death, which would be safe?

It's taken from the guidance notes for vets regarding the compensation forms. I forget which thread we discussed it on earlier, sorry, but it was established that for most owners the cost is going to exceed the £200 they can get reimbursed. Euthanasia for a dog that size is around £200 at many practices, and then disposal/cremation costs are likely to be around the same again (and I can't imagine this is optional in most circumstances, burying a 40kg dog at home is no small undertaking even if you have the facility to do so).

 

[SilverLinings]

It's taken from the guidance notes for vets regarding the compensation forms. I forget which thread we discussed it on earlier, sorry, but it was established that for most owners the cost is going to exceed the £200 they can get reimbursed. Euthanasia for a dog that size is around £200 at many practices, and then disposal/cremation costs are likely to be around the same again (and I can't imagine this is optional in most circumstances, burying a 40kg dog at home is no small undertaking even if you have the facility to do so).

If they could get the PTS done for £200 then I can imagine some people taking the dog to 'bury at home' and then dumping it somewhere at night, e.g., the local woods.

TBH I think for my own sanity I need to stop looking for 'reasons' why some of these owners do what they do, as I am never going to understand their behaviour.