Another fatal dog attack

Clodagh

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My mum has had an XL bully, a rescue (I’ve no idea if a genuine from a rescue or a pets at homes thing) with a young disabled owner, living next door to her. The owner is a lovely girl, probably weighs 8 stone when wet and walks with 2 sticks. She got a 12 month old dog. He is actually very friendly with people, mum always talks to him. He does that fixed stare thing with other dogs. He got away a couple of weeks ago and got hold of a dog, thankfully they got it off him with only superficial injuries.
He has now vanished, as of 2 days ago. Mum hasn’t seen neighbour yet to ask, but I wonder where he has gone.
 

Mrs. Jingle

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My mum has had an XL bully, a rescue (I’ve no idea if a genuine from a rescue or a pets at homes thing) with a young disabled owner, living next door to her. The owner is a lovely girl, probably weighs 8 stone when wet and walks with 2 sticks. She got a 12 month old dog. He is actually very friendly with people, mum always talks to him. He does that fixed stare thing with other dogs. He got away a couple of weeks ago and got hold of a dog, thankfully they got it off him with only superficial injuries.
He has now vanished, as of 2 days ago. Mum hasn’t seen neighbour yet to ask, but I wonder where he has gone.

I would imagine he has been PTS - well hopefully. I would also imagine at 12 months of age the side of his breeding that is, or can be aggressive is probably around about this age and this attack on another dog could well be just the start of worse to come.

Very sad altogether, I can't even imagine what it is like to be faced with putting a much loved dog down, but one has to ask what on earth were these people thinking in the first place buying this type of dog for the poor girl?:oops:
 

maisie06

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I have noticed a reduction in the amount of XL's out and about - especially when I drive through the local sink estate shortcut, seems people have off loaded them or aren't taking them out of the home any more. I did meet a chap walking a lovely looking dog this morning, he's worried as although the dog isn't an XL it could measure in on serveral points, it's mum was a Dane/Lab cross dad is a pointer...lovely polite dog, he does have a DNA report thing as he rehomed the dog and was interested in it's parentage, would be a shame for bigger crosses/mastiff types to get mixed up in this mess.
 

Cortez

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Very sad altogether, I can't even imagine what it is like to be faced with putting a much loved dog down, but one has to ask what on earth were these people thinking in the first place buying this type of dog for the poor girl?:oops:
"The nanny dog", "just a big softy", "great with kids", "soooo loving and protective", pick any of those and you can see why they thought it was a great idea.
 

SilverLinings

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I recently witnessed an extremely aggressive and apparently fatal attack by an XLB on another XLB in public. I've taken a few days to think about posting this as I'm not sure I behaved in the most proactive way I could, and have been thinking about whether I should have done something different. Until now I had only seen one XLB in the area where the attack took place so I wasn't particularly concerned about the chance of meeting any in public.

A couple of days ago early in the morning I nipped into the city I work near to pick up something before work. I went to a shop on the main high street, a mainly pedestrianised road that would be heaving with shoppers an hour or two later, and that was already starting to get busy. I was paying at the shop counter at a right angle to the windows at the front of the shop, and saw a couple of men walking past chatting holding dog leads (at that point only the top of the dogs heads were visible over the shop display, but I could see they were walking on slack leads). Just as I finished paying and was walking to the door an almighty noise of fighting dogs and screaming people started up in the doorway to the shop.

One dog appeared to have gone for the other with no warning, and judging by the men's shouts (they were by now arguing between each other) the dogs had previously got on. A couple of women tried to intervene until a man passing in the street wisely pulled them back. Both dogs just had slip leads on and within seconds of the fight starting one dog was out of it's lead, and the other had pulled free from it's owner.

The noise and power of the dogs was unbelievable, with them crashing into the doorframe and at one point knocking one of the owners over, who was dragged out of the way by customers. Very quickly there was a sizeable pool of blood and one dog lying apparently motionless whilst the owner screamed that it was dead (I'm not sure if it was, but it didn't look great).

When the fight started the shop manager immediately rang the police. As it seemed the police would be a while he eventually asked us all (the customers) to leave the shop by the fire exit at the back rather than using the front door.

I felt useless, and alarmed and frankly scared by the massive power displayed by the dogs (and yes, I have seen other breeds fight before), and the fact that they were both loose. I would have called the police had the manager not done so immediately, but other that making sure other people stayed away (which the shop staff did a good job of) I'm not sure what else any of us could have done. In retrospect maybe discharging a fire extinguisher at the dogs may have stopped the fight, but I'm not sure whether the very wound-up aggressor would have just turned elsewhere to release it's aggression (or run off around the busy city centre).

The dogs appeared to be young but fully grown, and judging by some of what the owners were screaming at each other neither dog had been aggressive before, which tallies with the reports of so many other XLB attacks.

If the card machine hadn't declined my card contactlessly and asked for a PIN then I would have been in the doorway when the attack started. I am now so glad that these dogs will need to be muzzled in public, as the event showed me how very quickly they can go from relaxed to killing something/someone. And a lead isn't enough to control such a strong dog. It is easy to look at reports in the press and think we would have done X/Y/Z (and I admit I have done that on occasion), but it happened so quickly that I can only imagine what the outcome would have been if it had been a human the dog had gone for (probably the same outcome as the dog victim).

Despite time feeling like it slows down when something like that happens it must have been under a minute before one dog was motionless, but the other dog still kept at it.

XLBs are not 'poor babies' who are being persecuted; they are a physically dangerous breed with a short fuse and little to no warning signs before they attack. They are powerful enough to kill an adult human. Some may never show aggression, but it appears difficult at best to detect which ones will and which won't. There is no place for this breed in a family home; I think the public 'muzzle and lead' rules will keep the public a lot safer (as I do actually have faith that MOST owners will abide by them), but I actually now think the rules should have stated they can't be around children AT ALL unless muzzled, including in the home. Adults can chose to put themselves at risk but children can't, and they stand no chance against an XLB that becomes aggressive.

Witnessing an attack brought it home violently that if one of these dogs goes for you you have no chance, and probably less than 60 seconds for a member of the public to prevent you dying (and that's only if they have the means, bravery, and it works without the dog turning on them).
 

CorvusCorax

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Hope you're OK SL. Can't have been pleasant to witness.

It's easy for anyone to say what should/could be done but fight/flight/freeze response is real, as is sense of self preservation. Personally, the only child of elderly parents, and that dictates a lot of my interactions these days.
The only saving grace is that it was dog on dog with two owners known to each other, as opposed to innocent passers-by, and no humans were harmed.
 

SilverLinings

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Hope you're OK SL. Can't have been pleasant to witness.

It's easy for anyone to say what should/could be done but fight/flight/freeze response is real, as is sense of self preservation. Personally, the only child of elderly parents, and that dictates a lot of my interactions these days.
The only saving grace is that it was dog on dog with two owners known to each other, as opposed to innocent passers-by, and no humans were harmed.
I think I'm quite a tough person but it turned my stomach a bit, and was really alarming how quickly serious damage was done. There is no time to do anything unless you are already holding a suitable weapon/method of restraint to use on the dog.

I left as soon as the other door was opened as I had to get to work, but a screaming match was going on between the two men so I'm not sure they will still be friends after this. Hopefully both owners now realise that the new rules need to be complied with; I'm afraid that the cropped ears on the dogs and slack slip leads (wide, soft rope with those stoppers to prevent choking, so comfortable but not very effective for such strong dogs) gave me the impression that they may not have been inclined to comply beforehand.
 

SilverLinings

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SilverLinings, I think you did the right thing for what it's worth. Had it been a human I can understand it would have been more of a dilemma, but I don't think anyone really knows what they would do until they are faced with that situation.

IT is a relief that I don't appear to have missed a really obvious way to help. I am a calm and proactive person in an emergency so I felt guilty that I hadn't been able to 'fix' the situation. And it isn't nice seeing a dog hurt like that.

It was terrifying that two (50ish, so not young and naïve teenagers) women were literally wading in to try to pull the dogs part, with no apparent awareness of the danger (until pulled away by a passerby). I was shocked anyone would be unaware of the danger, the dogs had completely lost control and had already pulled one owner over. Mind you, I suppose it is the same unawareness/blindness that means that despite all the reports of injuries and fatalities some people are still saying the breed is being stigmatised/picked on/getting bad publicity.
 

Tiddlypom

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Crikey, SL, what an awful thing to witness. So glad that you are physically unscathed.

There is nothing else that you could have done. The shop owner had called the police, and if you had tried to step in the intervene you would most likely have been very seriously injured at best.

I’ve seen just one XL bully IRL (not aggressive, but pulling hard on its lead), and though I am sturdily built I would have stood no chance against it if it had gone for me - they are massive.

Thanks for posting that, though.
 

Gloi

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I think I'm quite a tough person but it turned my stomach a bit, and was really alarming how quickly serious damage was done. There is no time to do anything unless you are already holding a suitable weapon/method of restraint to use on the dog.

I left as soon as the other door was opened as I had to get to work, but a screaming match was going on between the two men so I'm not sure they will still be friends after this. Hopefully both owners now realise that the new rules need to be complied with; I'm afraid that the cropped ears on the dogs and slack slip leads (wide, soft rope with those stoppers to prevent choking, so comfortable but not very effective for such strong dogs) gave me the impression that they may not have been inclined to comply beforehand.
Hopefully that will be two less of the dogs on the streets. Some of the men with them just have them as a weapon.
 

Cortez

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I'm not sure that there is anything that you could have done. I've waded in to a couple of "ordinary" dog fights, and been superficially bitten, but two fighting dogs in full flow: not a chance. Having seen video of organised dog fights in the US, and helped deal with the aftermath of severely injured and dead dogs, it's not anything that a normal human being cannot but be upset and traumatised by.
 
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Smitty

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IT is a relief that I don't appear to have missed a really obvious way to help. I am a calm and proactive person in an emergency so I felt guilty that I hadn't been able to 'fix' the situation. And it isn't nice seeing a dog hurt like that.

It was terrifying that two (50ish, so not young and naïve teenagers) women were literally wading in to try to pull the dogs part, with no apparent awareness of the danger (until pulled away by a passerby). I was shocked anyone would be unaware of the danger, the dogs had completely lost control and had already pulled one owner over. Mind you, I suppose it is the same unawareness/blindness that means that despite all the reports of injuries and fatalities some people are still saying the breed is being stigmatised/picked on/getting bad publicity.
I think you have summed it up. People can't seem to grasp the difference in these dogs, bred to fight, with any other breed. I personally would not have gone near them and am unsure whether I would have tried restraining anyone else for fear the animal would turn on me.

And as for your other post, cropped ears, slip lead, hmm, not sure anything will change the outlook of those particular men, it's all about the image I suspect.
 

SilverLinings

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I found it frustrating before that some people were railing against restrictions being put on the breed (like others I'm not sure a ban is the best option but at least it is an attempt to reduce attacks), and that they kept going on about it only being because of the breed being discriminated against by the press/politicians, and that it would just result in another breed beocomming dangerous.

Having now seen the dog in action first-hand I no longer just find it frustrating, I think it is frightening, particularly those who post photos of their young children on top of/next to/under XLBs. They need to understand that even though they are there taking the picture, if the dog turns there is a very high chance they will be able to do nothing and the baby/child will be dead within seconds. I hoped that by posting what I saw it might bring home to some people (in a minority on HHO) exactly how little control the owners have over these dogs if they flip. And although they don't all turn aggressive, a much higher percentage of them appear to compared to other breeds, plus they are too big and strong to be physically stopped.
 

SilverLinings

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I think that’s the the key, don’t have a dog you can’t hold because it’s too strong.
It must have been truly horrible to see, as has been said, at least it wasn’t a passer by or their dog.

And as the owners knew each other the owner of the aggressor couldn't/didn't do a runner. Given the noise, violence and apparently vigorous attempt by the 'victim' dog to defend itself I was surprised how quickly the aggressor overcame them, and I think even their owners thought it would be a more even match so less damage would be done. I am glad it wasn't a strangers dog, but I still felt awful for the dog that was attacked, although at least it was quick.

I haven't come across an XLB when dog walking yet (either with my last dog or more recently with my mother's dog, both spaniels. XLBs weren't really a thing when I owned dogs prior to that), and wasn't sure if I'd react as others on the forum have said they would, by walking in the opposite direction/getting to the other side of a fence/etc. I now will definitely walk away from any unmuzzled XLB I see when dog walking as she wouldn't stand a chance. Now that the ban has come into force I think that I would do the same if walking on my own too, as anyone walking an XLB without a muzzle post-ban is hardly going to be one of the responsible owners.

And for those who love XLBs and say that it is only down to bad owners: if the muzzle rule had been in place a week ago and adhered to then the XLB attack I witnessed wouldn't have happened, and the 'innocent' XLB wouldn't have been (apparently) killed. And if the owner had just been ignoring the rule then his dog would have been seized, making other dogs in the area a lot safer.
 

gunnergundog

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Out of interest, has anyone seen an old XLB?

Google tells me they appeared in the UK around 2014/15, so there should be some approaching ten now, which for a dog that size and build would be a fair old age. Am just wondering what percentage make it to 'old bones'. I know it's an impossible question to answer as no-one even knows how many are in the country. I have however never seen an old one.....is that because they all disappear when they get to a certain age when they start displaying undesirable tendencies or am I just lucky in that there aren't too many in the areas I move around in?
 

Clodagh

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Out of interest, has anyone seen an old XLB?

Google tells me they appeared in the UK around 2014/15, so there should be some approaching ten now, which for a dog that size and build would be a fair old age. Am just wondering what percentage make it to 'old bones'. I know it's an impossible question to answer as no-one even knows how many are in the country. I have however never seen an old one.....is that because they all disappear when they get to a certain age when they start displaying undesirable tendencies or am I just lucky in that there aren't too many in the areas I move around in?
Old dogs don’t have the cred of young ones? I’ve only ever seen one though, of any age.
 
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SilverLinings

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A lot of people don't seem to walk their dogs regularly, so I wonder if we see more young ones out and about because they are still a novelty for the owner (and still look 'impressive' rather than slow and docile), but after a few years they just get exercised less and less as the owner gets bored with them.

This seems to apply to all breeds and be much worse since the pandemic puppy buying. There is a lovely Dalmation down the road from me bought during the pandemic; he used to be walked daily, he now rarely goes anywhere other than the garden, and by rarely I mean less than once a month :(. The owners say that as he doesn't run around like a puppy anymore he clearly doesn't need exercise to 'tire him out' (I think it is actually primarily because they are lazy and don't really care for the dog).

Although as you say @gunnergundog, with XLBs there may well be other issues arising e.g. around owners also discovering they don't have adequate control.
 
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